DIY e-kettle opinions wanted

[defenestrate]

i recently moved into an apartment and i'm going to be brewing here. thankfully i have a basement and an electric dryer so i have the power supply. no comes the issues.

i personally do not have any electrical knowledge. my father, however, does... and would be comfortable tackling this as a project. my options come down to 3.

1- convert my keggle to electric buying all parts seperate and going for it.
cost-unknown to me.

2- converting my keggle to electric and buying the heating element and a weldless install kit, and buying this to control it http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=3073
cost-approx 400 all said and done.

3 buying a complete system from the above company including a converted pot and the controller.
cost-$$

all i'm really looking for is a kettle for 10 gal batches that i can run @100% for mash, strike and reaching boil and then dial in to maintain. i know that this can be done at home and believe me i've read numerous threads in my attempts to understand this... but i decided to post this thread in shame instead.

what do you electric brewers recommend? is that controller a total rip off or is the peace of mind worth it?



3-

 

[kevin9167]

i recently moved into an apartment and i'm going to be brewing here. thankfully i have a basement and an electric dryer so i have the power supply. no comes the issues.

i personally do not have any electrical knowledge. my father, however, does... and would be comfortable tackling this as a project. my options come down to 3.

1- convert my keggle to electric buying all parts seperate and going for it.
cost-unknown to me.

2- converting my keggle to electric and buying the heating element and a weldless install kit, and buying this to control it http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=3073
cost-approx 400 all said and done.

3 buying a complete system from the above company including a converted pot and the controller.
cost-$$

all i'm really looking for is a kettle for 10 gal batches that i can run @100% for mash, strike and reaching boil and then dial in to maintain. i know that this can be done at home and believe me i've read numerous threads in my attempts to understand this... but i decided to post this thread in shame instead.

what do you electric brewers recommend? is that controller a total rip off or is the peace of mind worth it?



3-

How much is your time worth to you?
Do you want to DIY, or would you rather spend the time brewing?
Do you enjoy learning and learning new skills?
How much is instant gratification worth?

You've laid out all the options, you just need to decide what you want to do. They're all good options. I like option 1, but it's really up to you.

The controller is expensive to me, but it could be justifiable to you.

 

[defenestrate]

How much is your time worth to you?
Do you want to DIY, or would you rather spend the time brewing?
Do you enjoy learning and learning new skills?
How much is instant gratification worth?

You've laid out all the options, you just need to decide what you want to do. They're all good options. I like option 1, but it's really up to you.

The controller is expensive to me, but it could be justifiable to you.

i do enjoy DIY... that is more my style. but i also am growing tired i've driving 35 miles round trip to brew since i've moved. i am more interested in being able to brew multiple times a week in the comfort of my place.

i do however enjoy learning new skills, and i most definitely enjoy the satisfaction of DIY.

i think i can justify the cost of the instant gratification, its looking like 375 total. i just cant seem to find a build list for the same capabilities with complete DIY... i would then be able to make a better decision. i feel like i'm hitting a wall haha.

oiy, time for another pint.

 

[defenestrate]

would anyone be willing to give me a quick estimation of what it would cost to build a controller like that or something of the sort? i hit a wall once getting past the element and install kit.

 

[wh4tig0t]

Read this thread, it takes a few pages, but The Pol describes in detail about building an E-Keggle with a controller, probably cheaper and more effective than the high gravity one. Since The Pol did this tons of people have repeated with great success.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bling-bling-electric-herms-conversion-93217/

 

[kevin9167]

It seems like you want to do it yourself, so I would go that route.

Read this thread, it takes a few pages, but The Pol describes in detail about building an E-Keggle with a controller, probably cheaper and more effective than the high gravity one. Since The Pol did this tons of people have repeated with great success.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bling-bling-electric-herms-conversion-93217/

Agreed. Also look at what jkarp did with his Countertop Brutus 20. Others have cloned this as well. Both of these setups use PIDs. The High Gravity controller appears to use a PWM circuit to trigger the SSR.

If you haven't checked out the Electrical Primer thread, you should. It has lots of good bits about electric and brewing.

 

[camiller]

Just remember that if your brewing in the basement (even electrically) you going to kick a lot of humidity out. Plan for ventilation.

 

[jfkriege]

If you look up Pulse Width Modulation (PWM), you will find information on the type of system that you are looking at buying.

A basic parts list would be
Water Heater Element
1" SS Nut from Bargainfittings
Solid State Relay
PWM Controller and an extra capacitor
Power Supply
An enclosure
Various cords and plugs

I am probably going to build out something like this and dont expect to spend more than about $75 for everything. for your situation I would say about $100 sound right.

If you want to get into a PID based system you are looking at a little more, but not a ton, and the additional functionality is great.

Joshua

 

[defenestrate]

Just remember that if your brewing in the basement (even electrically) you going to kick a lot of humidity out. Plan for ventilation.

yeah i'm in the process of building a hood either using a small kitchen fan or maybe a bathroom fan, i plan on just using the vent thats already there for the dryer.

 

[defenestrate]

If you look up Pulse Width Modulation (PWM), you will find information on the type of system that you are looking at buying.

A basic parts list would be
Water Heater Element
1" SS Nut from Bargainfittings
Solid State Relay
PWM Controller and an extra capacitor
Power Supply
An enclosure
Various cords and plugs

I am probably going to build out something like this and dont expect to spend more than about $75 for everything. for your situation I would say about $100 sound right.

If you want to get into a PID based system you are looking at a little more, but not a ton, and the additional functionality is great.

Joshua

would you mind touching on the added functionality? i was content with being able to run the element 100% to reach boil and cut back to maintain, but am curious as to what else i would be able to do. at this point i'm not really interested in running a RIMS or HERMS but may in the future.

 

[Sawdustguy]

If I were in your shoes I would use a PID and SSR to control the temperature of your e-kettle. The The PID will cost $36, two SSR's will be $38 and an RTD will be $33. All are available from Auber Instruments so it's one stop shopping. An element will cost you $20 at the most. When you add in the weldless coupler The project will cost you about $120 for parts. You will also need some electrical parts like wire, a and good GFCI but that will cost only an extra $25. This is $100 less than the High Gravity solution and the PID, SSR's and RTD will all be resueable if you eventually go with a RIMS or HERMS.

 

[kevin9167]

would you mind touching on the added functionality? i was content with being able to run the element 100% to reach boil and cut back to maintain, but am curious as to what else i would be able to do. at this point i'm not really interested in running a RIMS or HERMS but may in the future.

A PID will let you specify a temperature. It will reach that temperature and maintain it. This is helpful for heat strike water, etc. Useless for maintaining a boil. (I think that's the additional functionality jfkriege alluded to)

Some PIDs have a manual mode, which will let you specify a percentage of time for it to be on, sort of like the PWM circuit.

 

[Sawdustguy]

A PID will let you specify a temperature. It will reach that temperature and maintain it. This is helpful for heat strike water, etc. Useless for maintaining a boil. (I think that's the additional functionality jfkriege alluded to)

Some PIDs have a manual mode, which will let you specify a percentage of time for it to be on, sort of like the PWM circuit.

I forgot to mention that the PID should be used in manual mode. Thanks for mentioning that. The PID/SSR combination is only an advantage if he plans on a RIMS or HERMS later as they can be reused. Otherwise a PWM is a cheaper solution if he feels confident enough to build one.

 

[kevin9167]

The PID/SSR combination is only an advantage if he plans on a RIMS or HERMS later as they can be reused.

Or if he wants to heat strike water without watching it, or overshooting temp. I agree though, for boiling, a PID has no advantage over a PWM circuit.

Otherwise a PWM is a cheaper solution if he feels confident enough to build one.

For sure

Personally, I'm still in the PWM vs PID boat. It's a DIY vs cost thing. I'm too lazy right now to etch a board.

 

[willynilly]

Throw in the required pump and recirc port if you are going to use the kettle for heating water to a specific temp and holding it there. Unless you plan to constantly mix the water. IMHO, that is necessary for hands off temp. control.

 

[defenestrate]

If I were in your shoes I would use a PID and SSR to control the temperature of your e-kettle. The The PID will cost $36, two SSR's will be $38 and an RTD will be $33. All are available from Auber Instruments so it's one stop shopping. An element will cost you $20 at the most. When you add in the weldless coupler The project will cost you about $120 for parts. You will also need some electrical parts like wire, a and good GFCI but that will cost only an extra $25. This is $100 less than the High Gravity solution and the PID, SSR's and RTD will all be resueable if you eventually go with a RIMS or HERMS.

very good info, thanks. that price is looking nice.

A PID will let you specify a temperature. It will reach that temperature and maintain it. This is helpful for heat strike water, etc. Useless for maintaining a boil. (I think that's the additional functionality jfkriege alluded to)

Some PIDs have a manual mode, which will let you specify a percentage of time for it to be on, sort of like the PWM circuit.

this also sounds good, as i would like to come home from work, set a temp for mash in, and go back up to my apartment and not have to worry if i'm over shooting and wasting time/energy.

Throw in the required pump and recirc port if you are going to use the kettle for heating water to a specific temp and holding it there. Unless you plan to constantly mix the water. IMHO, that is necessary for hands off temp. control.

i use a pump already ( i mash and hold strike water in two extreme coolers) so i would just be adding a recirc port. i've thought about doing that anyways for whirlpooling while chilling ( i currently just have a piece of copper soldered into an L for this that comes over top the kettle). i may pick up another pump if i want to keep it on a single tier or just prop up the HLT.

 

[defenestrate]

so, the PWM will control the boil by cycling the element on/off? and a PID will simply just have the temp set at 212? how would the PID control how vigorous the boil is... isnt the temp 212 at a good rolling boil vs a frothing mess?

 

[Walker]

Personally, I'm still in the PWM vs PID boat. It's a DIY vs cost thing. I'm too lazy right now to etch a board.

You don't have to etch a board to build one. You can buy a little IC circuit board at Radio Shack for $1 and solder everything to it.

 

[Walker]

and a PID will simply just have the temp set at 212? how would the PID control how vigorous the boil is... isnt the temp 212 at a good rolling boil vs a frothing mess?

With a non-manual-mode PID, you can set the temp to 400*F if you want. It's just going to turn the element on full blast and you will get whatever strength boil you get.

With a manual-mode PID, it has the ability to set a duty cycle. You specify a period of time (like 4 seconds) and tell the PID to turn the element on for 80% of that time. It ends up functioning like a PWM in manual mode... it just costs 10x the price of a PWM circuit.

 

[jfkriege]

would you mind touching on the added functionality? i was content with being able to run the element 100% to reach boil and cut back to maintain, but am curious as to what else i would be able to do. at this point i'm not really interested in running a RIMS or HERMS but may in the future.

The functionality is that you can use this to adjust power to the element like you adjust volume on your stereo.

The PID would allow you to set a desired temperature. In addition, if you get a manual capable PID like the Auber, you can also dial in power on a 100% scale (like the PWM system).

The former is cheaper, the later is more capable. Upgrading from one to the other is extremely simple, and only costs the PID and RTD. Otherwise, they use the same components.

 

[Walker]

If I were in your shoes I would use a PID and SSR to control the temperature of your e-kettle. The The PID will cost $36, two SSR's will be $38 and an RTD will be $33. All are available from Auber Instruments so it's one stop shopping.

You'll need heat sinks for those SSRs, which adds another $30-something to the price if you shop at Auber.

If you don't mind shopping around, you can get the SSR w/ heatsink for $14 a piece (shipped) on ebay, and a liquid tight temp probe (RTD) for under $10 (shipped) on ebay, too.

There was a link to a PWM kit on here someplace, too. It was about $15 for the kit (assembled and shipped) if you want to go that route and have an assembled PWM shipped to you. It'll cost around $5 if you want to solder it together yourself.

Significant savings compared to Auber's prices. But, Auber apparently has great customer service if you feel you might need that. The only thing I bought from Auber on my system was the panel-mount connector from my temp probe because I couldn't find one anyplace else.

edit to add links for ebay products:
RTD:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Thermocouple-Temperature-Control-Sensor-Probe-PT100-NEW-/250638893932?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a5b3e036c
SSR w/ heatsink:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-24-480-VAC-40A-Heat-Sink-/150444302503?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23072de0a7

 

[SweetSounds]

I looked at the controller they sell. It's functional I'm sure, but seems cheesy to me. I have designed something like it that I'm going to sell, if I like it.

Nothing cheesy about it
30 amp breaker built in (You still need a GFI at the panel)
Dual 40 amp SSR's with heat sinks - More than enough capacity, and BOTH legs of the element are switched
PID control when switched to "Auto" mode (Use this with RIMS/HERMS/etc
Stainless steel RTD probe with disconnect
10-3 SJOW heavy rubber 6' power cable with NEMA 10-30 range plug (Various others available)
10-3 SJOW heavy rubber 1' output with female NEMA L6-30 Twist Lock
10-3 SJOW heavy rubber 6' whip (For the element) with male NEMA L6-30 Twist Lock
All cabling will enter the box through sealed cable grips
All components 220v - Even the power supply for the PWM manual circuit. This means you don't have to carry the neutral into the controller to peal off 110v - And risk incompatibility with some GFCI's!

I have all of the components to build the prototype, except the SSRs - Once they show up I'll finish assembly and testing. Then it's off to an EE and Electrician to inspect.

Oh, and wall mountable

 

[Walker]

I looked at the controller they sell. It's functional I'm sure, but seems cheesy to me.

I agree. The fact that it is supplied with only a three wire cord bothers me. That means that there is no earth ground coming into it, so the kettle is being "grounded" with the neutral line.

If they are selling that for $300, they are making a hell of a profit. It could be built for way under $100.

 

[Sawdustguy]

I agree. The fact that it is supplied with only a three wire cord bothers me. That means that there is no earth ground coming into it, so the kettle is being "grounded" with the neutral line.

Thats only if neutral and ground are tied together back at the panel.

 

[Walker]

I think my favorite part is that you have to plug it into itself. Plug the element into the box and plug the box into the wall.... then plug the box into itself.

 

[SweetSounds]

I think my favorite part is that you have to plug it into itself. Plug the element into the box and plug the box into the wall.... then plug the box into itself.

Yea, That's cheesy.

You don't bring the neutral at all in 3-wire 220. And even if you did, there's nowhere to connect it! The hot wires go to the element screws, and the ground goes to the threads. Neutral should only be connected to ground at the panel. Ever.

Mine uses 2 hots, and a ground (As it should be)
Theirs HAS to bring in the neutral in order to peal off 110v for the low voltage power supply.
That's why everything in mine is 220v - The 12v power supply for the PWM is 220v, the PID is 220v, and the lamp is 220v. I don't need the neutral.

It's safer, simpler, and cheaper. And this way a GFI functions as it should.

By the way, mine should be somewhere around that price - do everything it does and way more (Auto mode for mashing), be built with quality components, and (Best of all, IMO) NOT plug into itself

 

[Walker]

It's safer, simpler, and cheaper. And this way a GFI functions as it should.

GFI works with 4-wire just fine. it doesn't matter how many hots or neutrals you have in the service. GFI will work.

 

[defenestrate]

wow, those last 5 or 6 posts made my head spin trying to keep up haha.

 

[bonsai4tim]

If you don't have any of the supplies, the cost adds up pretty quick:

Figure $100 for the PID, SSR+heat sink, thermocouple and shipping from Auberines.

Add an enclosure ($21) then 10 feet of 10/4 cord from Lowes ($26) along with L14-30 plugs (2x $23) and L14-30 socket ($19) and you are up to $200 already, and you still need some extra wire, heating element, and some other misc. things (like switches).

So paying retail for the parts could easily get close to $300 depending on what you use or need.

t

 

[Walker]

So paying retail for the parts could easily get close to $300 depending on what you use or need.

Sure, you can spend as much as you want building whatever you want. No argument there, but it's also easy to find ways to save money (like, not using twist lock connectors or shopping at Auber.)

Something equivalent to that thing in the OP's link would cost under $75 to build.

 

[SweetSounds]

Sure, you can spend as much as you want building whatever you want. No argument there, but it's also easy to find ways to save money (like, not using twist lock connectors or shopping at Auber.)

Something equivalent to that thing in the OP's link would cost under $75 to build.

I'm curious, what would you like to see besides twist locks? I thought about normal range connectors, but they are so bloody hard to disconnect I didn't think they would work well.
Hard wiring would be a possibility as well I suppose - If you only want to control one element - ever. Or use a heat stick

If I was to custom build one, what would you like to see?

Edit: I'm hijacking - I'll start a new thread

 

[Walker]

I'm curious, what would you like to see besides twist locks? I thought about normal range connectors, but they are so bloody hard to disconnect I didn't think they would work well.
Hard wiring would be a possibility as well I suppose - If you only want to control one element - ever. Or use a heat stick

If I was to custom build one, what would you like to see?

Edit: I'm hijacking - I'll start a new thread

I assume you are asking the OP this question and not me, right?

 

[SweetSounds]

I assume you are asking the OP this question and not me, right?

Everyone - that's why I don't wanna hijack

 

[Walker]

asking everyone what they want custom built is going to get you a bunch of different responses.

I don't need anything myself.

The OP wanted a simple electric kettle with controllable boil strength. Nothing more, nothing fancy, and seemed willing to use something like that high gravity brewing item. That should give you a guideline for what he wants/needs.

 

[defenestrate]

asking everyone what they want custom built is going to get you a bunch of different responses.

I don't need anything myself.

The OP wanted a simple electric kettle with controllable boil strength. Nothing more, nothing fancy, and seemed willing to use something like that high gravity brewing item. That should give you a guideline for what he wants/needs.

yeah, i'm leaning towards going the PID route.