CTZ vs Apollo: The final bittering hop battle

[ianmatth]

I've been experimenting with head to head 1 gallon batches to figure out which bittering hop I prefer for my IPAs. I'm not going to go into all the break downs of the previous rounds, but CTZ and Apollo are the finalists so now it is time to judge between them.

I made two 1 gallon batches with the only difference being the bittering hops, I used a little less Apollo because it has a higher AA and I wanted the IBUs to match rather than the amount of hops.

Each beer contains:

1 lbs Golden Promise
1 lbs 2-row
Mash at 144* for 60 min
Mash at 156* for 10 min
Sparge at 168*
~1/8 oz each CTZ or Apollo @ 60
Mix of Centennial, Citra, Simcoe, El Dorado, and Amarillo
1/8 oz @ 20
1/8 oz @ 15
1/8 oz @ 10
1/8 oz @ 5
1/4 oz @ 0
1/4 oz @ Aroma Steep
50 billion cells of Conan

1.063 OG, 90 IBUs

 

[fifthcircle]

I'm not sure I would be able to tell the difference, with all those late hops.

It's cool that you are dialing in your recipe that much though.

Now, are you going to do the same two batches and use FWH? Maybe switch the last 5min of hops to the mash (adjusting accordingly, of course)?
LOL! Just messing with you

Heck, some of the time, I just use Hop Shot for bittering. My stouts have been really good with that as the only hops in them. I started using it once in a while after brewing the Pliny the Elder clone. Man was that a mess of hops!

Good luck!
-5th

 

[Dirty]

There both great hops. Its all up to you. I like Apollo much better just because i like an IPA with more of a smooth flavor so i use low Cohumulone hops like Apollo, Magnum, and Warrior for bittering. Apollo is what i bitter almost everything with. Ive used CTZ for bittering and it works great just sharper than i like. For a west coast IPA its CTZ all the way i just cut the IBU's back about 30% when i use it for bittering.

FWIW Apollo and Bravo at flame out and dry hop, in equal parts smells just like Citra.

Rock Chalk

Chris

 

[ianmatth]

I've used both CTZ and Apollo before through all the rounds of my bittering hop battle. I've even mixed them 50% (I did this for my Heady clone). I've stayed away from hop shots, I've heard that they are way more of a pain in the butt to clean than anything else. I use a hop bag these days so I don't get a lot of hop mess. There are many experiments one can do, and by making A LOT of 1 gallon batches as well as dry hopping A LOT of starter beers I have figured out what I prefer for my beers. Haven't done so much with FWH, in fact I only used it once on a Citra SMASH where I used the Zombie Dust clone's hop schedule. I've dry hopped with over 20 different hops (maybe I'll make another post on that) and from my experience Apollo and Bravo as dry hops TASTE nothing like Citra (didn't really pay attention to the aroma, but I really think aroma is overrated and often find a lot of IPAs smell better than they taste.) Also, I rarely make a beer that isn't some kind of American IPA, that's just what I like, so most of what I'm doing with all my hop and yeast experiments probably wouldn't be applicable to non-IPAs.

 

[ddrrseio]

ianmatth, *please* make a thread where you discuss your experiments and tasting notes!

i am fairly new to IPA formulation and it feels like i am a novice all over again.

 

[iijakii]

You must have an amazing palate. I sure couldn't tell the difference between bittering-only additions in an IPA. You've obviously put a lot of work into this so I don't doubt you, but I'd be interested in someone issuing you a blind taste test of 2x of each and seeing if you can pair the.. pairs together.

 

[ianmatth]

I could definitely tell the difference between all of my bittering hop experiments. CTZ vs Magnum and Apollo vs Polaris were pretty easy (everybody could tell the difference between Apollo vs Polaris), and while some of the others didn't have as much difference, I could still tell. I also made sure not to match up hops like Magnum, Millenium, and Warrior though, because I imagine it might be harder to tell the difference between hops that don't have that much of a definitive flavor. I would say I have a pretty good palate for hops though as the last time I drank 2xIPA I could easily taste 3 of the 4 hops they use (Centennial, CTZ, and Cascade), and am pretty sure the 4th hop is Chinook (and not just because those are the 4 Cs, although it does make sense they would use those). A lot of these hops used in IPAs have very definitive tastes (any hop that begins with C, Simcoe, and Southern Hemisphere hops in particular), and while they give different aspects of taste depending on where they were used in the boil or if they were used as a dry hop, I still find the taste of using a hop for bittering is not that far removed from the taste of using a hop for dry hopping. CTZ is a great example of this as I can still taste the pine and citrus aspects of it when I use it as a bittering hop even when I pile on a bunch of late addition hops and dry hop with a ton of hops that have even more pine and citrus aspects. I will say that vast majority of flavor comes from dry hops, but the bittering hop contributes to the flavor as well.

 

[ianmatth]

Moved to secondary. Gravity was down to 1.008. Dry hopping each with a 1/2 oz mix of Centennial, Citra, and Simcoe leaf hops.

 

[ianmatth]

Bottled. Gravity was down to 1.007. Tough call at this point, the CTZ is more pine, but the Apollo has a very definitive dank flavor that I really like. At this point I am leaning towards the Apollo since I am getting plenty of pine from the Simcoe (CTZ also gives great pine flavor as a dry hop, but since I am trying to isolate it as a bittering dry hop, I did not use it for that in this batch.) I'll have to see how they come out after bottling, but if I think the Apollo is better I might have to do another head to head experiment with Apollo vs a mix of Apollo and CTZ for bittering hops and using CTZ in the late addition and dry hop mix.

 

[ianmatth]

I finished all the beers. I really can't make a decision as to which hop was better, the CTZ was more pine, but the Apollo has it's own thing going that I really like as well. I will say that both of these beers came out excellent (one of my friends though they were both better than Bell's Two Hearted Ale, and I have to agree), I'm surprised it was so hop forward for only being dry hopped once. I'm probably going to have to do a combination vs one or the other next, and I have a feeling these two hops are the ideal bittering hop combination, so I think if I replaced Amarillo with Galaxy I may have found my ideal 7 hops for my 7th Hoppin' IPA.

 

[rlmiller10]

Bottled. Gravity was down to 1.007. Tough call at this point, the CTZ is more pine, but the Apollo has a very definitive dank flavor that I really like. At this point I am leaning towards the Apollo since I am getting plenty of pine from the Simcoe (CTZ also gives great pine flavor as a dry hop, but since I am trying to isolate it as a bittering dry hop, I did not use it for that in this batch.) I'll have to see how they come out after bottling, but if I think the Apollo is better I might have to do another head to head experiment with Apollo vs a mix of Apollo and CTZ for bittering hops and using CTZ in the late addition and dry hop mix.

I would be interested to hear your description of various hops. I am just starting to try and ferret out what hops give what flavor for my pallet. You mention getting pine from Simcoe. I always associated Simcoe with grapefruit pith. When I have called something pine I was describing a less astringent bitter, less pithy. More of a noble hop flavor. So it would be interesting to hear how someone else tastes things.

 

[ianmatth]

I made a thread with a review of 30 dry hops: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/review-30-dry-hops-448562/

I hear grapefruit and even cat pee for Simcoe, but I don't get any of that. I think I mention in the thread that I think of grapefruit as more of a combination between citrus and sour because I wouldn't say any hop tastes like grapefruit to me. I would probably describe a noble hop flavor as closer to spice than pine. I think of pine as a more grassy marijuana, halfway between fruit/citrus and dank.

 

[rlmiller10]

I made a thread with a review of 30 dry hops: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/review-30-dry-hops-448562/

I hear grapefruit and even cat pee for Simcoe, but I don't get any of that. I think I mention in the thread that I think of grapefruit as more of a combination between citrus and sour because I wouldn't say any hop tastes like grapefruit to me. I would probably describe a noble hop flavor as closer to spice than pine. I think of pine as a more grassy marijuana, halfway between fruit/citrus and dank.

Thank you for the list. I will have to trust you on the marijuana as I try to limit my bad habits to alcohol and a lot of red meat.

 

[ianmatth]

There's a time and place for everything, it's called college. A lot of people try to compare various hops to marijuana and I think it is more comparing it to the smell. It actually makes a lot of sense to compare hops to marijuana because they look and smell very similar and there are a lot of very definite strains of each, but it's probably more that Simcoe and certain strains of marijuana both have a very similar pine smell. I also think that Citra, Centennial, and even Cascade have a similar smell to some type of marijuana that is more fruit and citrus, although it seems CTZ and Apollo get more comparisons to some kind of dank marijuana smell. I get the pine with CTZ, but Apollo doesn't have that smell to me. Also, for those who have never smelled really potent marijuana, if you have smelled skunks in NJ and NY, it is an extremely similar smell. First time I smelled it I thought someone was growing marijuana. I grew up in FL and the skunks here are pure sulfur, no pine in their smell at all.

 

[rlmiller10]

+1 for the first ever differentiation of skunk smell I have heard or read.

Perhaps NJ and NY skunks carry around those little pine air freshened.

 

[ianmatth]

According to the friend of mine who told me I was smelling skunks instead of somebody growing marijuana, they smell like that in CO as well. The first time I smelled that in FL there ended up being a $5 million dollar bust later that year.

 

[ianmatth]

I did a big brew day with 16 lbs of grain (7 lbs Golden Promise, 7 lbs 2-row, 1 lbs White Wheat, 1 lbs Caramalt) to make another Heady clone as well as a few other beers. I mashed with 8 gallons of water at 150* for 60 minutes, pulled 4.8 gallons (3.2 gallons after boil) for my Heady clone and 1.6 gallons (1.2 gallons after boil) for a Bravo/Kohatu IPA. While those were boiling I added 1.5 gallons of water 2 different times to get a 20 minute mash rest and a REALLY long mash rest at 160* and 165*. I used the final 3.2 gallons of water to make two beers (1.2 gallons each after boil) that differed only in the bittering hops (CTZ vs CTZ/Apollo).

CTZ 7 IPA
1/8 oz each CTZ or CTZ/Apollo @ 60
Mix of Centennial, Citra, CTZ, El Dorado, Galaxy, Kohatu, and Simcoe
1/8 oz @ 20
1/8 oz @ 15
1/8 oz @ 10
1/8 oz @ 5
1/4 oz @ 0
1/4 oz @ Aroma Steep
50 billion cells of 75% WLP090/25% Conan mix in each
1.2 gallons each, 1.059 OG, ~90 IBU

 

[Cahowell]

So how did they all come out? I am curious about the apollo hops. I read they can add orange flavor. Have you used them for later additions?

I did a big brew day with 16 lbs of grain (7 lbs Golden Promise, 7 lbs 2-row, 1 lbs White Wheat, 1 lbs Caramalt) to make another Heady clone as well as a few other beers. I mashed with 8 gallons of water at 150* for 60 minutes, pulled 4.8 gallons (3.2 gallons after boil) for my Heady clone and 1.6 gallons (1.2 gallons after boil) for a Bravo/Kohatu IPA. While those were boiling I added 1.5 gallons of water 2 different times to get a 20 minute mash rest and a REALLY long mash rest at 160* and 165*. I used the final 3.2 gallons of water to make two beers (1.2 gallons each after boil) that differed only in the bittering hops (CTZ vs CTZ/Apollo).

CTZ 7 IPA
1/8 oz each CTZ or CTZ/Apollo @ 60
Mix of Centennial, Citra, CTZ, El Dorado, Galaxy, Kohatu, and Simcoe
1/8 oz @ 20
1/8 oz @ 15
1/8 oz @ 10
1/8 oz @ 5
1/4 oz @ 0
1/4 oz @ Aroma Steep
50 billion cells of 75% WLP090/25% Conan mix in each
1.2 gallons each, 1.059 OG, ~90 IBU

 

[ianmatth]

I liked the mix of the CTZ and Apollo better than either of them by themselves. It seemed to be a good mix of pine and dank rather than going too much one way or the other. I wouldn't say Apollo adds an orange flavor. Centennial is probably your best bet for that. I have used Apollo for late additions, but I would advise using it very sparingly. The Heady Topper clone is a good example of how to use it.

 

[Cayon]

Thank you for sharing, this is a really nice job.

 

[rowanb]

thanks

 

[Weezy]

Just a little tip from your Uncle Lare....For best results in telling the difference between bittering hops, try only adding bittering hops. Anything later and a complex malt bill are only going to make it harder for your taste buds to distinguish the difference.