Crystal Malt, Why All The Hate?

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AZCoolerBrewer

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I currently have a Wee Heavy/Export 80 partigyle beer fermenting and I was feeling a little self conscious about my grist choice. I used about 8% Crystal 80L.

My reasoning was that I wanted to emphasis the malt flavor and perhaps get a subtle burnt sugar flavor to help the yeast (1728) with this peaty flavor that is prized in Scotch Ale. Also, I was using some of the AHA recipes as a guide and most recipes use 8-12% crystal malt and most of the recipes presented are gold medal winners.

When people get there recipes critiqued on this forum, I have never seen someone say, “If it was me, I’d double the crystal 60L and add 4 more ounces of dextrine malt.” The peer pressure is enormous these days to limit crystal malt and yet as I said, there are gold medal winners in the AHA Scotch Ale recipe selections that use around 10% crystal in a beer style that BJCP suggests should use very little crystal. What gives, why all the hate for crystal malt?
 
I have to say I think you're applying a misguided brush here. From what I've seen over the years the ding on crystal is wrt pales and IPAs where relatively new brewers seem compelled to use more than traditional amounts of crystal malts.

Pretty much nobody ever complains about grain bills on prospective Wee Heavy or Scotch Ale recipes (and, fwiw, I say "Go nuts!" on those styles)...

Cheers!
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...l-mash-recipe-critique-first-creation.505359/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wee-heavy-recipe-feedback-requested.597038/

I found these two threads where someone says, cut the crystal malt. Also, I don’t see Scotch Ale threads that suggest adding crystal malt.

In fairness, the BJCP guidelines suggest only a small charge of dark malt for color and kettle caramelization and yeast choice for flavor. So in the case of Scotch Ales, “Cut your crystal malt in half”, would be valid advice, but broadly, I haven’t seen people recommend more crystal malt for any beer really.

Here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/first-attempt-at-an-english-style-pub-ale.652387/

This recent post has several people suggesting to cut the crystal/cara malt way down, yet when I look at Jamil’s Southern English Brown Ale on the AHA site, he has around 27% crystal/cara malt and won a gold medal. I may have to start questioning internet forum information as being reliable
 
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I have to say I think you're applying a misguided brush here. From what I've seen over the years the ding on crystal is wrt pales and IPAs where relatively new brewers seem compelled to use more than traditional amounts of crystal malts.

Pretty much nobody ever complains about grain bills on prospective Wee Heavy or Scotch Ale recipes (and, fwiw, I say "Go nuts!" on those styles)...

Cheers!

This.

I am far more critical of “kitchen sink” recipes where it looks like the brewer went on a shopping spree in the malt room. If you want to make a strong Scotch ale with 15% crystal, that’s great...but you probably don’t need 20 different malts to make it happen.
 
Crystal Malts were heavily overused for quite some time IMO. There is an all or nothing mentality going on here because of that over use. There are still award winning IPA's coming out with a restrained amount of light crystal.

Honestly it has been a while since I really took notice of this though. A couple years ago all I read on Homebrewtalk was "drop the crystal" in almost every recipe. I haven't noticed the crystal hate as much lately.
 
Different brewers will have different approaches to making (the same) beer.

I am a new brewer and I found out that I do not like Crystal malt in my IPAs. I like it in ESBs, Red Ales, Brown, Porter and any other style where the aromas and flavours from Crystal malt are desirable/enjoyable.

I don't hate Crystal malt and I don't think people hate it. I do think that most will recommend less of it, where possible. That's a good advice for some beers and a less good advice for other styles. But your own taste will determine this, after a while.
 
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...l-mash-recipe-critique-first-creation.505359/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/wee-heavy-recipe-feedback-requested.597038/

I found these two threads where someone says, cut the crystal malt. Also, I don’t see Scotch Ale threads that suggest adding crystal malt.

In fairness, the BJCP guidelines suggest only a small charge of dark malt for color and kettle caramelization and yeast choice for flavor. So in the case of Scotch Ales, “Cut your crystal malt in half”, would be valid advice, but broadly, I haven’t seen people recommend more crystal malt for any beer really.

Here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/first-attempt-at-an-english-style-pub-ale.652387/

This recent post has several people suggesting to cut the crystal/cara malt way down, yet when I look at Jamil’s Southern English Brown Ale on the AHA site, he has around 27% crystal/cara malt and won a gold medal. I may have to start questioning internet forum information as being reliable
What an American organisation has to say about British beers does not really interest me personally. They can hand out gold medals all day long but still can have a completely distorted view on the topic. I'd rather go and ask British brewers if I would be curious.
 
I generally add a mix of 80L and 120L crystal to my Scotch Wee Heavy's that totals to about the same percentage as you just used. I do this because I don't want to bother with boiling down and then re-introducing some percentage of the wort. And I know its not accomplishing the same flavor profile.....

I'll also go so far as to openly admit to enjoying a small amount (ballpark 4.5%) of ~10L crystal in my German Pils.

If the crystal works, then I suggest that you continue to add whatever pleases your taste buds.
 
Two pieces of advice you always get on home-brewing forums in general 1) cut the crystal 2) simplify the grain bill

In many situations these are not bad suggestion but they do not hold universally true. For example you will often see number 1 for lagers but reality is caramunich is a common ingredient in many German lagers according to modest usage.
 
Having been one of the original responders to one of the threads you linked up above, I think 2 things are at play here:

1. It's VERY hard to know over the internet what someone is really going for with their recipe. Even if they state a style, there are still countless ways to approach it. For example: English Special Bitter. The BJCP (2008) color range is 5-16SRM. Thats a HUGE variation and means you can approach the recipe a dozen different ways.

Usually when people are asking for recipe help it's because the style is very new to them. They dial the recipe in based on the style guidelines and use crystal to hit the right SRM without actually having a clear picture of what they're trying to achieve. It might turn out great, but if you use the wrong L crystal, that could mean that crystal ends up as 25% of the grain bill. The beer might still be good IF you like that flavor, but when offering advice about the recipe, the tendency is to offer advice that is a bit more tame, so the recipient is more likely to end up with a beer that they like.

2. Recipes that just use TOO much. I've seen porter and stout recipes with base malt, Carapils, Victory, Special Roast, Amber Malt, C40, C60, C80, C120, Chocolate Malt, Black Patent with specialty malts making up 40% of the grain bill. It's fine to have a large number/percentage of specialty malts if each of them serve a purpose and you know what that purpose is, but more does not always equal better. In most cases, more just equals a muddy/cluttered flavor profile. It's usually better to focus on the key flavors that you want to bring out, rather than trying to have a little bit of everything.

I'm not anti-crystal malt, I'm anti-cluttered/sticky sweet beer. I use 3-5% (sometimes up to 10%) crystal in most of my recipes. in your case 10% of one or two crystal malts in a scottish ale sounds good. If you were to boil down some first runnings into syrup, that may be too much, its hard to say.
 
Wee heavy is not a bitter and so on...it depends on what you are brewing. People are actually not brewing wee heavy (normaalisti even Brown mild) most of the time when they come looking for advice. If one of Zainasheff's wee heavy recipes contains 17% crystals, another of his wee heavys contains 12%, most of Wee heavys probably contains less and even this amount would be all too much to replicate an average British bitter (or most APAs).
 
A lot of the hate probably comes from:

1. Newbies tend to have a malt bill of about 10 different crystal malts initially (a bit of an exaggeration ;)) and get told to cut it back
2. It appears that mostly everyone wants to brew IPAs and you don't really want too much crystal malts to let the hops shine

Personally, one of my best beers was a stout with 20% Crystal malt and 9% black patent - absolutely delicious and not cloyingly sweet despite 28 IBUs. But it was designed to be a lower gravity sweet-like roasty stout.

I'm not afraid to go heavy on my British-style ales (brown, porter, ESB, etc.) but I am very restrained on styles like pilsner, blonde, APA, etc.
 
It's your beer, and you are the one who has to drink it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but make what you like.

As far as the BJCP thing goes, they are guidelines only (unless you are into the competition thing). Don't get hung up on them or, more importantly, let them get in the way of making the beer you want to make just because it doesn't fit into one of their categories.

I routinely use up to 10% crystal malts some British styles, and use one or two crystal malts at most. I'm going for a specific flavor and/or color. As long as you have an idea what result you are looking for from a specific item in your grain bill, do it. It is yours, after all.

Continuing on the crystal theme and British ales, color is only a part of the story. Simpsons dark will give you a much different flavor result than Crisp or Fawcett. I am a huge fan of Simpsons crystal malts and love the flavors they give to a beer. />
 
The "Using the Style Guidelines" section of the BJCP explains some limitations to what the intent is. They seem to be saying "Don't read too much into it."
 
I generally add a mix of 80L and 120L crystal to my Scotch Wee Heavy's that totals to about the same percentage as you just used. I do this because I don't want to bother with boiling down and then re-introducing some percentage of the wort. And I know its not accomplishing the same flavor profile.....

I'll also go so far as to openly admit to enjoying a small amount (ballpark 4.5%) of ~10L crystal in my German Pils.

If the crystal works, then I suggest that you continue to add whatever pleases your taste buds.

This is what I did with my Scotch Ales in my partigyle, I know the flavor would probably not match up, but I wanted to have that scotch ale flavor without having to boil down to syrup part of the wort. My brew day was quite long already as I had to clean the kitchen, bottle my Scotch IPA to get my yeast slurry, then brew my partigyle, which I hadn’t done before, so the extra step of boiling down the wort just seemed like a bit too much. I did do a 90 minute boil, but if I could do it over would probably have done the 60 minute, because my Wee Heavy hit 1.120 and I would have rather had it around 1.100.

I do find homebrewing is really fun in the regard that the right way and wrong way can’t be clearly devined. There is no true authority, the book authors will usually admit when they wrote something that they thought was true at the time, but has been shown to be inaccurate. The organizations publish information but aren’t curmudgeons about it. Here on HBT you can at least get straight answers, but then the answers aren’t always consistent and there is definitely an element of peer pressure in the information. That leaves me to be my own authority, which I like just fine.

But I do think I like crystal malt more than the general consensus. As far as BJCP, I use their information all the time because it is a great resource when formulating recipes. I try to stay in style as is defined in BJCP, but like everyone’s saying, the power to make it my own is mine, which is great.
 
Because crystal sucks, just kidding. I dont know, i have noticed that too. I never let the whims of the peanut gallery sway me. Like you i also like all of the crystal malts. I also dont make my own recipes. I try to use the best recipes i can find. If they have crystal whatever, i dont think twice. As i think of it my pumpkin beer could you some more burnt sugar taste. Maybe Simpsons double crystal or whatever its called. Anyways yeah, i think cloying ipas went out of popularity and with it the recommendation to watch crystal. Cant think of anyboff hand but some good ipas still use them. Isnt there some sort of belief that drier beers let hops shine more?
 
As I've grown with my homebrewing, I've come to believe one thing in particular: people like what they like. If you like crystal/caramel influences in your beer, then add them. If you don't, limit them.

I'm with Sadu, at least to some extent--just because someone says something doesn't mean it's gospel. I don't like Mosaic hops, for instance. Does that make me wrong? No, of course not. It just means I like what I like.
 
SNCA is an example of an IPA that just would not be the same without the crystal malt that's in the grist bill. Its got to be just the right amount though. Too much and its a bit cloying but if there's not enough, the color is off.

Quite delicious when you nail it!
 
I've been brewing 25ish years and I've seen things change over that time. When I started we were much more limited in the variations of malt available. Crystal malts were much more used for color adjustments because thee weren't many other choices. There was also a division starting between west vs east coast when it came to styles. West coast was starting the hop-heavy/less balanced PA's and IPA's while the east coast was still more towards the balanced/British styles of those beers. (Note: back then it seems like every brew pub had 5 beers: blonde, wheat, pale ale, IPA and a stout/porter.)

The trend over time has also been towards simpler recipes, mostly in non-dark beers, especially towards simple malt builds (even just 2-row/pilsner) and making variations with more complex hop builds. Plus I feel many recipes during this time have been unbalanced towards the hop side versus malty side, uneven so to say. Add in many more different types of malts available in the last ten years, recipes can be simpler now compared to older recipes.

But to your original question, crystal is not a bad thing and for balance, like in a scotch-style beer or other dark beers but also others, is still needed. Don't be afraid to use them. I'm not a fan of ultra-complex recipes, I think and in my brewing rarely use more than 5 grains. I also have moved back from simplifying many of my recipes in the last few years (especially with my pale ales and IPAs) toward using a little more crystal for more balance. Kinda out of the "what's new" back towards what I miss and truly like.
 
I think new AG brewers just get carried away a bit with the whole newness of creating recipes. The more I brew, the simpler my beers get and the malt bill gets shorter.
 
this peaty flavor that is prized in Scotch Ale.

Err what peaty flavour? Literally not a thing, it's just something that US brewers imagine having never tasted actual Scottish beers. Since you are so keen on BJCP, let me quote 14B Scottish Heavy : "is never roasty and especially never has a peat smoke character"

As an aside, the whole concept of Wee Heavy as a class of beer is, like ESB, something of a US construct based on one British beer - in this case the now-deceased Fowler's Twelve Guinea Ale.
 
there are gold medal winners in the AHA Scotch Ale recipe selections that use around 10% crystal in a beer style that BJCP suggests should use very little crystal.

So the guidelines suggest one thing, and then judges ignore it and hand out gold medals? That sounds like a problem with the judging process ignoring the guidelines - or judges not knowing enough about the style to judge it appropriately. But hopefully as things evolve, people get more experience and they know what to look for.

when I look at Jamil’s Southern English Brown Ale on the AHA site, he has around 27% crystal/cara malt and won a gold medal. I may have to start questioning internet forum information as being reliable

Whereas I'm struggling to contain the expletives at how &^%$ing clueless the US can be about British beer. Seriously - I have never seen a British recipe with 27% crystal, yet you're trying to hold it up as a benchmark?

What an American organisation has to say about British beers does not really interest me personally. They can hand out gold medals all day long but still can have a completely distorted view on the topic. I'd rather go and ask British brewers if I would be curious.

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Who gives a damn what judges think who have never sat in a British pub (or at best, a London tourist gaff), when the recipes of actual British brewers are readily available? You could take Fuller's as an example - their beers are a benchmark of the Thames Valley style which is relatively crystal heavy by British standards, but we have their actual brewbooks saying they use 7.2% crystal. And that's just one regional style - compare with the definitive Manchester bitter which is essentially a pale malt/Goldings SMaSH with no crystal whatsoever.

Just looking through Ron Pattinson's recipes since June from actual British brewers we have :

1959 Fullers Nourishing Stout (2.65% ABV) - 7.4% crystal, 37% sugar, 7.4% maize
1964 Eldridge Pope Double Stout (3.2%) - 15.7% crystal 60, 12.2% sugar, 5.2% lactose
1962 Clarke 1/5 Nobby Brown Ale (2.84%) - 0% crystal, 23% sugar, 6.6% maize
1946 Barclay Perkins KK (bottling) (3.9%) - 4.8% crystal, 15.7% sugar
1958 William Younger No. 3 Scotch Ale (3.97%) - 0% crystal, 5.1% sugar, 30.8% maize
1958 William Younger Brown Ale (3.44%) - 0% crystal, 11.5% sugar, 30.8% maize
1959 Watneys Dairy Maid Sweet Stout (2.91%) - 0% crystal, 22.3% sugar
1956 Tennant's Gold Label (11.05%) - 0% crystal, 12.6% sugar, 18.4% maize
1952 Shepherd Neame SXX (4.37%) - 0% crystal, 2.6% sugar
1948 Lees Bitter (3.7%) - 0% crystal, 10.8% sugar
1961 Thomas Usher P 1/4 (3.9%) - 0% crystal, 22.9% sugar, 6.7% maize
1939 Boddington IP (4.56%) - 0% crystal, 7.6% sugar, 20.4% maize
1963 Lees Strong Ale (7.28%) - 2.2% crystal, 18.2% sugar, 6.6% maize
1964 Truman P2 (3.84%) - 1.5% crystal, 9.1% sugar, 4% maize
1957 Lees Export (4.89%) - 4.6% crystal, 15.9% sugar, 6.8% maize

I should have made the cut-off 2 months exactly, which would have knocked off those last three recipes!:) It's a random set of recipes that I'm not claiming is definitive but you get the general idea, in general crystal is used sparingly if at all - obviously crystal would feature more heavily in a collection of Thames Valley Bests from the 1980s. But doesn't a 27% crystal beer just look freaking weird in that company? Yet you hold it out as representative of British brewing!

Ron is on a post-WWII kick at the moment which wasn't the happiest of times for British brewing, what with high taxation, rationing and burgeoning corporatism, but it all looks pretty familiar to a British brewer. OK, you seldom see beers under 3.8% these days, and adjunct use was particularly high; CAMRA's influence has seen adjunct use decline but 6-10% is still pretty common.

So what's going on? Why do US brewers think that British beers need so much more crystal than UK commercial brewers?

Some of it is to do with the availability of ingredients. One reason British brewers seem to have started using crystal in the 20th century was because modern high-yielding barley didn't have the rich flavour of traditional varieties like Chevallier. Even the flavour of something like Maris Otter doesn't compare to Chevallier, and US domestic barleys are blander still - and UK maltsters tend to kiln their malts a little more than their equivalents elsewhere in the world. I suspect that kilning ultimately comes back to that folk memory of Chevallier defining what is "normal" to the British palate. So I get that US brewers used a bit more crystal to compensate for bland US malts in the days when UK malts were hard to get - but there's no excuse now.

In a similar vein, US brewers tend to throw in crystal without appreciating the need to balance it with sugar to dry out the beer - note how only the Eldridge Pope milk stout above has more crystal than sugar. Whilst attitudes to adjuncts have changed a lot in the last 20 years (and tastes have changed as well), all those classic beers have significant amounts of adjunct in them, increasing fermentability, drying it out, and contributing Maillard flavours. You can't look at crystal without looking at invert sugar as its essential partner.

I get the impression that US crystal is less flavoursome than the British equivalent, although I don't have any direct experience with it, so that might explain why more gets used.

Yeast. Historically US brewers tried to make British beers with high-attenuating yeasts like Chico, and then tried to "put the sweetness back" with crystal and ended up with a horrible mess that bore no resemblance to real British beer. Now that lower-attenuating British yeasts are widely available, there's no excuse not to use them.


But there does seem to be a deeper "problem", that US brewers think that British beer is just a lot sweeter than it actually is, and so use crystal to try and match that. Again there's various reasons from what I can tell.

Part of it is the "tourist effect" - London/Oxford/Stonehenge pretty much maps out the heart of the region of crystal-heavy beers, whereas tourists tend not to go to the industrial cities where the taste is for drier beers with less/no crystal. And the beers of the northern cities are less geared for export - Leeds was utterly dominated by Tetley, which was bought by Carlsberg for their pubs and had no great interest in exporting the beer, they demolished the brewery instead. Manchester has several smaller family breweries which are more focussed on selling into their pub estates.

So although huge amounts of eg Lees MPA are drunk on draught, you seldom see them in eg UK supermarkets, let alone in the export market. But it's a good expression of modern British bitter using second-line US hops (Liberty & Mt Hood). You could view something like Track Sonoma as an update on Boddington's using Centennial etc - it's a modern classic but seldom gets to London let alone export markets. Both are a world away from the Thames Valley beers. Instead you guys get what the big companies want to sell which seems to be mostly stuff like Hobgoblin which I find undrinkably sweet, and not at all representative of British beer, but it seems to be reasonably popular across the pond.

Another problem seems to be that visitors end up drinking cask ale in London pubs that don't condition it properly - Landlord in particular suffers from this, I've had pints of it that were sickly sweet from unconverted priming sugar, when it should be taut and dry. The general standard of cellarmanship in London (with some notable exceptions) is a national embarrassment and it doesn't help people get the right idea of what cask is meant to taste like.

So there's no "hate" for crystal - it's just an ingredient, how weird is it to hate an ingredient? But we do get fed up with the opinions of US judges being held up as some kind of proof that high %ages of crystal are "authentic" in British-style beers, when there's no evidence for such %ages being used by actual British brewers.
 
As an aside, the whole concept of Wee Heavy as a class of beer is, like ESB, something of a US construct based on one British beer - in this case the now-deceased Fowler's Twelve Guinea Ale.

Belhaven produces a "Wee Heavy" -- possibly for the US market only? A lot of British brewers produce US-specific beers, which, along with stuff Michael Jackson and Fred Eckhardt wrote in the '70s and '80s, heavily influenced American beer geeks' , homebrewers', and craft brewers' impressions of British beer. Three of my favorites when I started liking beer were from Sam Smith's: Nut Brown Ale, Taddy Porter, and Oatmeal Stout. Imagine my disappointment upon visiting the Tadcaster brewery in 1987 and finding none of my favorites to be had!
 
Three of my favorites when I started liking beer were from Sam Smith's: Nut Brown Ale, Taddy Porter, and Oatmeal Stout. Imagine my disappointment upon visiting the Tadcaster brewery in 1987 and finding none of my favorites to be had!

Is that because of restrictive alcohol % laws in the UK?
 
Belhaven produces a "Wee Heavy" -- possibly for the US market only? A lot of British brewers produce US-specific beers, which, along with stuff Michael Jackson and Fred Eckhardt wrote in the '70s and '80s, heavily influenced American beer geeks' , homebrewers', and craft brewers' impressions of British beer. Three of my favorites when I started liking beer were from Sam Smith's: Nut Brown Ale, Taddy Porter, and Oatmeal Stout. Imagine my disappointment upon visiting the Tadcaster brewery in 1987 and finding none of my favorites to be had!

I recently had the Nut Brown and the Oatmeal Stout. I really enjoyed the nut brown, simple beer, great taste. No unnecessary fanciness, just nice.
 
Is that because of restrictive alcohol % laws in the UK?
Possibly. But I think it more comes down to the difference in beer culture between the US and UK.

(I know I'm on thin ice here, given the recent posts of NorthernBrewer and Miraculix!)

The UK is much more pub-oriented, and UK beer enthusiasts are much more focused on cask-conditioned ale. In principle there's no reason these beers couldn't be put on cask, but in practice it's rare. Turnover for big/different beers is slow, and slow turnover and Real Ale make a terrible combination -- hence the great variety of Bitter, Bitter, Bitter, and more Bitter you see in CAMRA-blessed pubs.
 
Possibly. But I think it more comes down to the difference in beer culture between the US and UK.

(I know I'm on thin ice here, given the recent posts of NorthernBrewer and Miraculix!)

The UK is much more pub-oriented, and UK beer enthusiasts are much more focused on cask-conditioned ale. In principle there's no reason these beers couldn't be put on cask, but in practice it's rare. Turnover for big/different beers is slow, and slow turnover and Real Ale make a terrible combination -- hence the great variety of Bitter, Bitter, Bitter, and more Bitter you see in CAMRA-blessed pubs.

Hahaha, keep me out of this, I essentially do not really know what i am talking about here. I am just a German living in the UK for a few years now just being able to hand over the little insight I was able to gather during my stay in the south of the UK. Unfortunately, beer-wise, the northern part would be much more of interest to me as it fits my personal taste better. I am not much into the Thames area sweetness.

I have brewed a few beers with Chevallier malt now, also a Chevallier lager smash with low hop schedule to really let the malt really shine. And I must say, based on my personal experience, what northern brewer said about replacing the missing character of modern malts with crystal sounds pretty reasonable to me. Chevallier, the old old old school british malt tastes much different than every other (modern) malt I have tasted. Not quite like a 10% crystal beer, but it goes somewhere in the direction. Pretty unique if you ask me, I really recommend trying it.
 
Hahaha, keep me out of this, I essentially do not really know what i am talking about here. I am just a German living in the UK for a few years now just being able to hand over the little insight I was able to gather during my stay in the south of the UK.
Coulda fooled me. I thought you were a Gaul!
 
Err what peaty flavour? Literally not a thing, it's just something that US brewers imagine having never tasted actual Scottish beers. Since you are so keen on BJCP, let me quote 14B Scottish Heavy : "is never roasty and especially never has a peat smoke character"

As an aside, the whole concept of Wee Heavy as a class of beer is, like ESB, something of a US construct based on one British beer - in this case the now-deceased Fowler's Twelve Guinea Ale.

I’m not sure which BJCP you’re reading from, but 14B is American IPA not Scottish Heavy which is 9B and says, “The peaty aroma is sometimes perceived as earthy, smoky or very lightly roasted.”

Edited to say 14B American IPA not English IPA which is 14A.
 
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The 2015 BJCP guideline under section 17C "Wee Heavy" states: "Slight smoke character may be present in some versions, but derives from roasted grains or from the boil. Peated malt is absolutely not traditional."

And as to crystal malt the guideline states: "May use some crystal malt for color adjustment."

Commercial examples of 17C are listed as: Belhaven Wee Heavy, Gordon Highland Scotch Ale, Inveralmond Blackfriar, McEwan's Scotch Ale, Orkney Skull Splitter, Traquair House Ale

I was once a big fan of the almost syrupy sweetness of McEwan's Scotch Ale. I still enjoy it on occasion. They must isolate and render (boil) down a fair percentage of the wort until its like a thick syrup, and then add it back into the rest of the wort. A bit of the rendered portion may be nigh on burnt until it departs a somewhat roasted character.

If you like this syrupy sweet roasted character, but want it on steroids, try Hopin Frog's 'B.O.R.I.S. The Crusher' (Bodacious Oatmeal Russian Imperial Stout).
 
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The longer I brew, the more simple my recipes are.

For years, I experienced my beers with crystal would oxidize quicker. Most of the time I could pick up oxidized flavors at about month 4 or 5.this wasn’t the case with non crystal recipes. It was odd, they would taste great one day, and the next I would pick up off flavors.

I was just having a conversation recently with a guy at the lhbs, and mentioned it to him. He said that he had heard the same and it was on a recent podcast.

Interestingly, he said it was a thing with medium crystal malts but bot light or heavy malts. Also said that others reported that this didn’t happen with British crystal.
 
Honestly, a little disillusioned by the BJCPs 180 degree turn in just 7 years??? Apparently there’s no standard for any of this shiznet. 7 years shouldn’t be that long of a time in beer years.
 
Honestly, a little disillusioned by the BJCPs 180 degree turn in just 7 years??? Apparently there’s no standard for any of this shiznet. 7 years shouldn’t be that long of a time in beer years.

Perhaps someone from the program actually went to the UK and discovered that peated malt is not used.
 
Honestly, a little disillusioned by the BJCPs 180 degree turn in just 7 years??? Apparently there’s no standard for any of this shiznet. 7 years shouldn’t be that long of a time in beer years.

This actually just highlights why everybody should not really give much about what is written in those guidelines. Those are guidelines for a competition. Artificial rules that do not necessarily have to comply with the real world.

If you want real world, check the respective country or ask somebody from there to give you an idea about what the beer in question is actually all about.
 
So the guidelines suggest one thing, and then judges ignore it and hand out gold medals? That sounds like a problem with the judging process ignoring the guidelines - or judges not knowing enough about the style to judge it appropriately. But hopefully as things evolve, people get more experience and they know what to look for.



Whereas I'm struggling to contain the expletives at how &^%$ing clueless the US can be about British beer. Seriously - I have never seen a British recipe with 27% crystal, yet you're trying to hold it up as a benchmark?



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Who gives a damn what judges think who have never sat in a British pub (or at best, a London tourist gaff), when the recipes of actual British brewers are readily available? You could take Fuller's as an example - their beers are a benchmark of the Thames Valley style which is relatively crystal heavy by British standards, but we have their actual brewbooks saying they use 7.2% crystal. And that's just one regional style - compare with the definitive Manchester bitter which is essentially a pale malt/Goldings SMaSH with no crystal whatsoever.

Just looking through Ron Pattinson's recipes since June from actual British brewers we have :

1959 Fullers Nourishing Stout (2.65% ABV) - 7.4% crystal, 37% sugar, 7.4% maize
1964 Eldridge Pope Double Stout (3.2%) - 15.7% crystal 60, 12.2% sugar, 5.2% lactose
1962 Clarke 1/5 Nobby Brown Ale (2.84%) - 0% crystal, 23% sugar, 6.6% maize
1946 Barclay Perkins KK (bottling) (3.9%) - 4.8% crystal, 15.7% sugar
1958 William Younger No. 3 Scotch Ale (3.97%) - 0% crystal, 5.1% sugar, 30.8% maize
1958 William Younger Brown Ale (3.44%) - 0% crystal, 11.5% sugar, 30.8% maize
1959 Watneys Dairy Maid Sweet Stout (2.91%) - 0% crystal, 22.3% sugar
1956 Tennant's Gold Label (11.05%) - 0% crystal, 12.6% sugar, 18.4% maize
1952 Shepherd Neame SXX (4.37%) - 0% crystal, 2.6% sugar
1948 Lees Bitter (3.7%) - 0% crystal, 10.8% sugar
1961 Thomas Usher P 1/4 (3.9%) - 0% crystal, 22.9% sugar, 6.7% maize
1939 Boddington IP (4.56%) - 0% crystal, 7.6% sugar, 20.4% maize
1963 Lees Strong Ale (7.28%) - 2.2% crystal, 18.2% sugar, 6.6% maize
1964 Truman P2 (3.84%) - 1.5% crystal, 9.1% sugar, 4% maize
1957 Lees Export (4.89%) - 4.6% crystal, 15.9% sugar, 6.8% maize

I should have made the cut-off 2 months exactly, which would have knocked off those last three recipes!:) It's a random set of recipes that I'm not claiming is definitive but you get the general idea, in general crystal is used sparingly if at all - obviously crystal would feature more heavily in a collection of Thames Valley Bests from the 1980s. But doesn't a 27% crystal beer just look freaking weird in that company? Yet you hold it out as representative of British brewing!

Ron is on a post-WWII kick at the moment which wasn't the happiest of times for British brewing, what with high taxation, rationing and burgeoning corporatism, but it all looks pretty familiar to a British brewer. OK, you seldom see beers under 3.8% these days, and adjunct use was particularly high; CAMRA's influence has seen adjunct use decline but 6-10% is still pretty common.

So what's going on? Why do US brewers think that British beers need so much more crystal than UK commercial brewers?

Some of it is to do with the availability of ingredients. One reason British brewers seem to have started using crystal in the 20th century was because modern high-yielding barley didn't have the rich flavour of traditional varieties like Chevallier. Even the flavour of something like Maris Otter doesn't compare to Chevallier, and US domestic barleys are blander still - and UK maltsters tend to kiln their malts a little more than their equivalents elsewhere in the world. I suspect that kilning ultimately comes back to that folk memory of Chevallier defining what is "normal" to the British palate. So I get that US brewers used a bit more crystal to compensate for bland US malts in the days when UK malts were hard to get - but there's no excuse now.

In a similar vein, US brewers tend to throw in crystal without appreciating the need to balance it with sugar to dry out the beer - note how only the Eldridge Pope milk stout above has more crystal than sugar. Whilst attitudes to adjuncts have changed a lot in the last 20 years (and tastes have changed as well), all those classic beers have significant amounts of adjunct in them, increasing fermentability, drying it out, and contributing Maillard flavours. You can't look at crystal without looking at invert sugar as its essential partner.

I get the impression that US crystal is less flavoursome than the British equivalent, although I don't have any direct experience with it, so that might explain why more gets used.

Yeast. Historically US brewers tried to make British beers with high-attenuating yeasts like Chico, and then tried to "put the sweetness back" with crystal and ended up with a horrible mess that bore no resemblance to real British beer. Now that lower-attenuating British yeasts are widely available, there's no excuse not to use them.


But there does seem to be a deeper "problem", that US brewers think that British beer is just a lot sweeter than it actually is, and so use crystal to try and match that. Again there's various reasons from what I can tell.

Part of it is the "tourist effect" - London/Oxford/Stonehenge pretty much maps out the heart of the region of crystal-heavy beers, whereas tourists tend not to go to the industrial cities where the taste is for drier beers with less/no crystal. And the beers of the northern cities are less geared for export - Leeds was utterly dominated by Tetley, which was bought by Carlsberg for their pubs and had no great interest in exporting the beer, they demolished the brewery instead. Manchester has several smaller family breweries which are more focussed on selling into their pub estates.

So although huge amounts of eg Lees MPA are drunk on draught, you seldom see them in eg UK supermarkets, let alone in the export market. But it's a good expression of modern British bitter using second-line US hops (Liberty & Mt Hood). You could view something like Track Sonoma as an update on Boddington's using Centennial etc - it's a modern classic but seldom gets to London let alone export markets. Both are a world away from the Thames Valley beers. Instead you guys get what the big companies want to sell which seems to be mostly stuff like Hobgoblin which I find undrinkably sweet, and not at all representative of British beer, but it seems to be reasonably popular across the pond.

Another problem seems to be that visitors end up drinking cask ale in London pubs that don't condition it properly - Landlord in particular suffers from this, I've had pints of it that were sickly sweet from unconverted priming sugar, when it should be taut and dry. The general standard of cellarmanship in London (with some notable exceptions) is a national embarrassment and it doesn't help people get the right idea of what cask is meant to taste like.

So there's no "hate" for crystal - it's just an ingredient, how weird is it to hate an ingredient? But we do get fed up with the opinions of US judges being held up as some kind of proof that high %ages of crystal are "authentic" in British-style beers, when there's no evidence for such %ages being used by actual British brewers.
One thing that you don't mention which really is significant in this phenomena is that British cask beers are carbonated are at very low levels which will make the beer seen significantly fuller than it is. A reverse to contenential styles.

I definitely agree with you about cellar man ship in the UK being poor. There is very few pubs even in London & Essex that I trust to serve quality cask beers. Generally I simply never order them just for that reason. You are best off going to a camra beer festival to get something close to brewery fresh.
 
I haven't compared the BJCP guideline changes in detail, but the changes I've noticed have been in the right direction, more accurately describing what you'll find "in the wild". Beer styles are also a moving target, and if anything BJCP errs on the conservative side. NEIPAs, for example, are not to be found in the 2015 guidelines.

It's a bit of a no-win for them. Change the guidelines and get cursed for not providing an absolute, stable metric. Don't change the guidelines and get cursed for not accurately describing what is actually being brewed, sold, and consumed in the real world.

As suggested above, it's best to view them in the narrow context of competition, which is what they are intended for.
 
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