Cream Ale - Lager/Ale yeast dual ferment

[Kirkwooder]

I have read a few threads about combining both an ale and lager yeast in a cream ale. Most are several years old, and none that I looked at had any posts from first hand experience. I'm thinking about giving this a try with a very basic cream ale grain bill. I have brewed this several times and fermented it with both ale and lager strains with very good results.

I have used us05 in several batches of ale at temps as low as 58*-60* with great results. One corner of my basement floor naturally stays in the mid 50's this time of the year, and I take full advantage of that to ferment several lagers each winter. I also have had carboys of us-05 IPA fermenting right next to the lager with good results.

My biggest question would be, no matter what temp I ferment the beer at, won't it take on the characteristic of the yeast that best ferments at that temp? Even if I ferment at the upper end of the lager yeasts range and the lower end of the ale's.

Has anyone ever actually done this? If so what affect did it have on flavor profile?

 

[catdaddy66]

I brew a good many cream ales, and have one fermenting as we speak. I haven't actually combined an ale and lager yeast as I most always use wlp080, cream ale blend. From what I have read it combines wlp001 (west coast ale) and wlp810 (San Francisco lager) strains, but don't quote me please Lol.

I believe the yeast is ideal for what I love in a cream ale and using it allows me to play with some of the ingredients. I do remember using cry havoc (wlp862) which is the ale/lager combo used by Charlie Papazian. It was very good also.

I have also read of some members combining strains for optimal results but I have no experience with it personally.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

The question is why mix?

A cream ale with lager yeast, is a lager (assuming you process it as a lager). Low to no esters, crispy, clean. If you can ferment in the high 40's to low 50's, use a lager yeast. Won't be called a cream ale, but it will be tasty.

A cream ale with an ale yeast is an ale. More esters, maybe yeastier, maybe not quite as clean. If you can ferment in the high 50's and want it cleaner, use something like WLP029. For a bit less clean (more ale like), go for Nottingham, US-05, or WLP001.

I just can't justify mixing when there's so many different strains available.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Even if I ferment at the upper end of the lager yeasts range and the lower end of the ale's.

Define "upper end of the lager yeasts range and the lower end of the ale's". First - whether it is actually an ale yeast or not - for instance recent DNA sequencing has shown that WLP051 California V Ale is actually a lager yeast, just one that's so heat tolerant that everyone thought it was an ale yeast. Now we know more about the genetics, the boundaries between ale and lager yeasts look very blurry. I thought Cry Havoc was a single lager strain from a Budweiser keg, it just happens to work well at ale temperatures.

And over on the warm-fermented yeast thread, people have been reporting good results making lager at ale temperatures, as long as you use the right yeast - Mangrove Jack's M54 Californian Lager is officially described as "For best results, ferment at 18-20 degrees C (64-68 degrees F)" but people in that thread have pushed it up to 80F with only some fruitiness. WLP810 officially goes up to 65F,Wyeast 2112 is 58-68F - I'd assume they're all basically the same yeast that's been tested differently. It's kinda the whole point of cream ales that you're using a lager strain that works at ale temperatures.

For ale strains, then there's a good reason why British breweries traditionally used multistrains - you got complexity of flavour and a good mix of brewing properties - attenuation and flocculation - which are seldom found in one strain. The complexity of flavour argument has less force when you're deliberately using lager yeasts for their cleanness, and those Californian lager yeasts drop like rocks but they're not great attenuators, so the only reason to mix would be to blend in something like WLP830/840/S-189 to try and get a bit more attenuation if that was important to you.

 

[isomerization]

I recently did a 5 yeast experiment with an American Porter (morebeer Clone kit of Black Butte Porter).

One of the yeasts was WLP080 fermented at 65F. Interestingly it had the creamiest mouthfeel of all 5 batches, despite a 1.016 FG (ranged from 1.014 to 1.021).

I don’t think this result would have occurred with just the American ale yeast, so perhaps there was some kind of interesting synergy there.

 

[Kirkwooder]

I recently did a 5 yeast experiment with an American Porter (morebeer Clone kit of Black Butte Porter).

One of the yeasts was WLP080 fermented at 65F. Interestingly it had the creamiest mouthfeel of all 5 batches, despite a 1.016 FG (ranged from 1.014 to 1.021).

I don’t think this result would have occurred with just the American ale yeast, so perhaps there was some kind of interesting synergy there.

What was your SG? Did the porter finish with good head retention? The things that I like most about cream ale is the thick foamy head, and the light color and finish.

 

[isomerization]

What was your SG? Did the porter finish with good head retention? The things that I like most about cream ale is the thick foamy head, and the light color and finish.

OG = 1.058 and yes solid head retention, wasn’t the best of the bunch, but solid.

 

[Kirkwooder]

That's about where the cream ale that I do starts, a little lower usually. I'll have to give it a try.