Conical Temp Control Question

[boondocksaint]

Hey folks,

I've been looking at conicals (Ss BrewTech 14 Gal, Spike, CF10, & Stout) along with their various temp control systems. My question is, what is the temp range for these heating/cooling set ups? I've got my brewery set up in my garage which is not very well insulated and is cold in the winter and hot in the summer. I see the benefits to moving to a conical but am concerned about controlling the fermentation temps. I wouldn't mind having the conical living in my house but would have to carry it up about 6 steps once it's filled with 10+ Gal of wort and place it. Def not ideal.

If all of this is answered in a thread already, could one of the mods please point me in that direction?

Much appreciated.

 

[Golddiggie]

The temperature control will depend on the glycol chiller you decide on. Whichever one you get, make damned sure to use at least 1/2" wall insulation on the lines. Otherwise you'll get more than a bit of thermal bleed through thin insulation (like what comes on the lines from Spike, which I wouldn't get again). DO use the silicone tubing (3/8" ID) for the glycol to run through (better than vinyl).

With the high temperatures you're talking about, you might be better off getting a jacketed conical than a single wall model. While I have two Spike CF10's currently, I'm waiting for Brewers Hardware to get their 15 gallon jacketed models in stock (no way you're carrying those up stairs on your own). IF the neoprene jacket that Spike sells was thicker (it's rather thin currently) it could insulate to a better level. I made a 'hat' from neoprene for both of my conicals not long after getting them. It helped keep the temperatures inside them.

What temperatures are you talking about for 'hot' in the summer? How cold in the winter? You'll want to keep the beer from freezing while out there.

Where I am now, the garage is under the house. While it's not insulated beyond the construction, it also doesn't typically get blow ~40F in the winter (with the door closed). In the summer it gets up to maybe 80F, even on the hottest days. I ferment in the room behind the garage (so basement) which is more stable (after I moved a couple of tech items out of it that were generating heat). This is same level, which really helps.

You could create an insulated box/chamber for the conicals to roll into when in use. Keep the glycol chiller outside of that. It just needs to be good enough to help maintain temperatures. So you could get away with just rigid foam insulation sheets cut and glued together (with a door on one side).

 

[eric19312]

If plan is one or two conicals you might consider stand up freezer option. For cost of the glycol unit and the temp control coil you can buy two stand up freezers new and control them with inkbirds or similar. That may take the SS Brewtech fermentor out of consideration, I assume they are still including the chilling coil as a required option, but there are a lot of happy Spike customers on here (including me) I don't think you would be unhappy with a CF10.

No way would I consider lifting a full fermentor up stairs. They are heavy enough empty.

edited to add: I mentioned buying two stand up freezers...this is just to point out economics still favor freezers with two fermentors. If you are running one CF10 it will be much cheaper than chilling with glycol. Yes there is DIY glycol option, but there is also Craigslist freezer option.

 

[boondocksaint]

The temperature control will depend on the glycol chiller you decide on. Whichever one you get, make damned sure to use at least 1/2" wall insulation on the lines. Otherwise you'll get more than a bit of thermal bleed through thin insulation (like what comes on the lines from Spike, which I wouldn't get again). DO use the silicone tubing (3/8" ID) for the glycol to run through (better than vinyl).

With the high temperatures you're talking about, you might be better off getting a jacketed conical than a single wall model. While I have two Spike CF10's currently, I'm waiting for Brewers Hardware to get their 15 gallon jacketed models in stock (no way you're carrying those up stairs on your own). IF the neoprene jacket that Spike sells was thicker (it's rather thin currently) it could insulate to a better level. I made a 'hat' from neoprene for both of my conicals not long after getting them. It helped keep the temperatures inside them.

What temperatures are you talking about for 'hot' in the summer? How cold in the winter? You'll want to keep the beer from freezing while out there.

Where I am now, the garage is under the house. While it's not insulated beyond the construction, it also doesn't typically get blow ~40F in the winter (with the door closed). In the summer it gets up to maybe 80F, even on the hottest days. I ferment in the room behind the garage (so basement) which is more stable (after I moved a couple of tech items out of it that were generating heat). This is same level, which really helps.

You could create an insulated box/chamber for the conicals to roll into when in use. Keep the glycol chiller outside of that. It just needs to be good enough to help maintain temperatures. So you could get away with just rigid foam insulation sheets cut and glued together (with a door on one side).

I am in SE part of VA where 35+ temp swings are normal. Take today, it was 30 degrees when I got up and the high is supposed to be 66. Just a couple weeks ago we had nights in the high 20's. Due to the water table here there are no basements, so no natural earth insulation.

I think the most likely scenario for me is to use a standup freezer of some kind which takes care of the warmer months but not the cold. So, with the heating pad type wraps they sell for the conicals is that going to provide enough heat during fermentation assuming the conical is inside an insulated box (fridge or freezer)? Currently, I'm using an old fridge that I gutted and built a wooden box platform for my glass Big Mouth Bubblers.

 

[eric19312]

I am in SE part of VA where 35+ temp swings are normal. Take today, it was 30 degrees when I got up and the high is supposed to be 66. Just a couple weeks ago we had nights in the high 20's. Due to the water table here there are no basements, so no natural earth insulation.

I think the most likely scenario for me is to use a standup freezer of some kind which takes care of the warmer months but not the cold. So, with the heating pad type wraps they sell for the conicals is that going to provide enough heat during fermentation assuming the conical is inside an insulated box (fridge or freezer)? Currently, I'm using an old fridge that I gutted and built a wooden box platform for my glass Big Mouth Bubblers.

Yes

My garage gets down into the low 40s in the winter. I heat my freezer with a ceramic reptile bulb and a small fan. I'd say no problem holding tems at 50F above ambient.

 

[a1amberrenae]

Have you thought about getting a really long house and pumping the wort up 6 steps then you don't have to carry it?

I made a chamber, insulated it and use a window unit to keep it regulated.

 

[WesBrew]

I haven't fermented a beer yet with my CF10 yet but i've done many ales and lagers with my glycol and kegmenter and anvil fermenters. i use insulation wrap from home depot and cut it to fit. I think you can do that with a conical, just multi-piece and more slits to cut.

 

[Dland]

Pumping the wort is the way to go, vs carrying. I pump it down to fermentors in cellar w 20 ft hose. To keep hose as short as possible, I have fermentor on a stainless steel restaurant table with wheels, so I can move fermentor away from cellar window & stairs to where I like to ferment.

 

[boondocksaint]

Have you thought about getting a really long house and pumping the wort up 6 steps then you don't have to carry it?

I made a chamber, insulated it and use a window unit to keep it regulated.

HAHA...I'm sure my wife would be thrilled to see a hose running into the house with wort being pumped through it on it's way to a conical!

Like I said, I have a ferm fridge i'm using now but it's too short for a conical.

Yes

My garage gets down into the low 40s in the winter. I heat my freezer with a ceramic reptile bulb and a small fan. I'd say no problem holding tems at 50F above ambient.

Can you tell me more about your heat set up? Maybe PM some pics? I like the idea.

In fact, just this morning I scored a Kenmore stand up freezer on OfferUp for free. The issue is, it apparently quite working. My thought was to try something simple like replacing the relay to see if I can't get it running again. Lo and behold, the relay part number I need is either discontinued or at least long term back ordered depending on which website I go to. Trying to search online for an aftermarket replacement but no joy so far. If anyone has a resource for sourcing such parts, let me know! Or, can point me to another 3 prong relay that would work, I would greatly appreciate it!

The relay part number is: 216649308

Alternatively, would it be possible (or advisable) to basically cut out the relay and just use an external temp controller? I've used a Johnson temp controller before but have recently seen the name Inkbird(?). Need to look those up too.

 

[eric19312]

Can you tell me more about your heat set up? Maybe PM some pics? I like the idea.

...it is the thing in the rear right corner. On the bottom I have a 60W ceramic reptile heater bulb in a ceramic lamp socket sitting on small piece of plywood (plywood added after the picture after I spilled some beer in the fermenter and blew a circuit)
over that is this piece of something called snap lock pipe, I'll measure it and come back but I'm guessing it is 6x24 [edited it is 5x24"]. I put the holes in the end near the bottom.
on top of the snap lock pipe is a small muffin fan blowing up. I really like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OXDAWY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The muffin fan plugs into a standard outlet and is always on so the air in my freezer is constantly being pulled from the bottom of the freezer and pushed to the top. Constant mixing to eliminate stratification and I believe increases heat transfer to the conical.

The heat bulb is controlled by my controller.
I use an Auber controller which is a little more sophisticated than the Inkbirds but I believe the Inkbirds would work fine. Here is the inkbird most people use I believe:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HXM5UA...=m4tSf&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_title
Here is the auber I use:
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_129&products_id=671

 

[boondocksaint]

View attachment 760394
...it is the thing in the rear right corner. On the bottom I have a 60W ceramic reptile heater bulb in a ceramic lamp socket sitting on small piece of plywood (plywood added after the picture after I spilled some beer in the fermenter and blew a circuit)
over that is this piece of something called snap lock pipe, I'll measure it and come back but I'm guessing it is 6x24. I put the holes in the end near the bottom.
on top of the snap lock pipe is a small muffin fan blowing up. I really like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OXDAWY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The muffin fan plugs into a standard outlet and is always on so the air in my freezer is constantly being pulled from the bottom of the freezer and pushed to the top. Constant mixing to eliminate stratification and I believe increases heat transfer to the conical.

The heat bulb is controlled by my controller.
I use an Auber controller which is a little more sophisticated than the Inkbirds but I believe the Inkbirds would work fine. Here is the inkbird most people use I believe:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HXM5UA...=m4tSf&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_title
Here is the auber I use:
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_129&products_id=671

Thanks man! Great set up! Have you been able to maintain specific (at least within a degree or two) ferm temps once dialed in on that Auber?

 

[eric19312]

Thanks man! Great set up! Have you been able to maintain specific (at least within a degree or two) ferm temps once dialed in on that Auber?

Yes...it holds within a degree of target without excessive cycling. The real benefit though is it doesn't under or overshoot targets.

I got the Auber before I had a stainless conical...I'd recently upgraded to a 60L Speidel tank (they are a heavy HDPE) in an old fridge controlling with STC-1000 (similar control to the Inkbird). Control was working fine to control two 6 gallon glass or plastic carboys but when I tried 15 gallons in that heavy plastic tank all of a sudden I started getting fermentation issue flavors and bought some data loggers from Amazon. Figured out I was getting biggish under and overshoots as my system tried to get to right temperature. Figured dual probe would take care of issue and it really did . I'd set my max high and max low to be within 10F of target and while it would take a bit longer to get to target temp the over/undershooting went away completely.

The SS conical is a different situation than the Speidel...SS is a really good heat conductor. It's possible the over/under shooting would just not be an issue with this unit especially with an always on fan running. But the Auber is still doing the job so I've not tested to see if that extra control is really necessary.

BTW when I was doing the research that lead me to Auber I spent quite a bit of time thinking about BrewPi. The cost for out of the box was pretty high, the DIY option seemed to be beyond my programing skills, and I felt I could live without a lot of the cool features they were offering but that the dual probe control could really be worth trying. That said if you are more electronically inclined than me (perhaps have some Raspberry Pi experience) you might want to take a look over there.

 

[superiorsat]

I use these mini heaters in 4 different fridge or freezers. They fit easily in the door of the fridge. Garage can be not heated an no problem since it is such a small space to heat even if you want to run it at 95 for Kveik yeast. Used to be $15 but apparently they went up just like everything else.
Edit- With this type of setup you have to measure ambient temp on the controller or you would over/under shoot pretty bad I would think. I just manual check the fermenter temp and adjust the ambient to compensate.

 

[boondocksaint]

View attachment 760394
...it is the thing in the rear right corner. On the bottom I have a 60W ceramic reptile heater bulb in a ceramic lamp socket sitting on small piece of plywood (plywood added after the picture after I spilled some beer in the fermenter and blew a circuit)
over that is this piece of something called snap lock pipe, I'll measure it and come back but I'm guessing it is 6x24. I put the holes in the end near the bottom.
on top of the snap lock pipe is a small muffin fan blowing up. I really like this one:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OXDAWY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
The muffin fan plugs into a standard outlet and is always on so the air in my freezer is constantly being pulled from the bottom of the freezer and pushed to the top. Constant mixing to eliminate stratification and I believe increases heat transfer to the conical.

The heat bulb is controlled by my controller.
I use an Auber controller which is a little more sophisticated than the Inkbirds but I believe the Inkbirds would work fine. Here is the inkbird most people use I believe:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HXM5UA...=m4tSf&ref_=sbx_be_s_sparkle_mcd_asin_0_title
Here is the auber I use:
https://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8_129&products_id=671

eric19312, did you have to buy any additional gaskets or TC fittings to secure the temp probe in the thermowell on the front of your conical?

Also, how are you placing the 2nd temp probe in your freezer/ferm chamber?

I really dig your set up and thinking about doing basically the same but maybe using a small ceramic heater like above.

Much appreciated all!

 

[eric19312]

eric19312, did you have to buy any additional gaskets or TC fittings to secure the temp probe in the thermowell on the front of your conical?

Also, how are you placing the 2nd temp probe in your freezer/ferm chamber?

I really dig your set up and thinking about doing basically the same but maybe using a small ceramic heater like above.

Much appreciated all!

you need a 1.5 inch TC thermowell. Spike used to include one but now it is accessory . The gasket and clamp they provide for the useless thermometer will work on the thermowell. Beer probe goes into that thermowell. I keep meaning to get some grease but seems to work fine without it. The chamber probe just hangs from the back of my freezer door on a hook I mounted there.

 

[Dland]

HAHA...I'm sure my wife would be thrilled to see a hose running into the house with wort being pumped through it on it's way to a conical!

Probably not thrilled to see 10 gallons of wort spilled on floor & you on injured list either. {;

[/QUOTE]
Alternatively, would it be possible (or advisable) to basically cut out the relay and just use an external temp controller? I've used a Johnson temp controller before but have recently seen the name Inkbird(?). Need to look those up too.
[/QUOTE]

I cut out all the circuitry on my DYI window AC based glycol chiller and use Inkbird external contoller on that. But you don't have to, the controller can over ride existing circuits. On a refridgerator, there are probably some protection circuits on compressor you might want to leave in place.

The Inkbird 308 is a fairly inexpensive and pretty good digital temp controller used a lot for various temp control functions. They can control heat & cool. I use a analog Johnson to run my big chest freezer at crashing/lagering temp. It does a good job too for static temp control, rock solid reliable, but not as versatile.

 

[boondocksaint]

you need a 1.5 inch TC thermowell. Spike used to include one but now it is accessory . The gasket and clamp they provide for the useless thermometer will work on the thermowell. Beer probe goes into that thermowell. I keep meaning to get some grease but seems to work fine without it. The chamber probe just hangs from the back of my freezer door on a hook I mounted there.

Thanks brother! That’s exactly what I needed!
Cheers!

 

[boondocksaint]

you need a 1.5 inch TC thermowell. Spike used to include one but now it is accessory . The gasket and clamp they provide for the useless thermometer will work on the thermowell. Beer probe goes into that thermowell. I keep meaning to get some grease but seems to work fine without it. The chamber probe just hangs from the back of my freezer door on a hook I mounted there.

eric19312, so an update…scored an upright freezer for free as it wasn’t working. The relay it needed is discontinued and no longer available so picked up a relay overload capacitor and it works like a champ! That and a couple cans of appliance paint and it looks like new!
Got my new CF10 put together this weekend and was getting everything set in place. Had to ditch the door baskets and rails, and turn the conical to one side but the door closes…barely .
So, question on the Auber. What range do you set it at? If your intended ferm temp is 68, what is your Cooling Set Point and your Heating Set Point?
Also, did you adjust the Cooling/Heating Differential settings or just leave them at factory settings?


Thanks brother!

 

[eric19312]

eric19312, so an update…scored an upright freezer for free as it wasn’t working. The relay it needed is discontinued and no longer available so picked up a relay overload capacitor and it works like a champ! That and a couple cans of appliance paint and it looks like new!
Got my new CF10 put together this weekend and was getting everything set in place. Had to ditch the door baskets and rails, and turn the conical to one side but the door closes…barely .
So, question on the Auber. What range do you set it at? If your intended ferm temp is 68, what is your Cooling Set Point and your Heating Set Point?
Also, did you adjust the Cooling/Heating Differential settings or just leave them at factory settings?

View attachment 762734
Thanks brother!

Looks good! I actually removed the entire plastic door liner to get all those shelves out of the way on my freezer but looks like you didn't have to go that far.

For the Auber there are 4 settings I adjust regularly. I believe rest of the settings are on factory.

typical during fermentation with US-05 will start like this (assuming I pitched the yeast at about 65-67):

CSP - cold set point is the temp the freezer comes on - 68
HSP - hot set point is the point the heater comes on - 67
CLL - cold lower limit - 55
HLL - hot higher limit - 75

After about 3-4 days fermentation will be slowing and I increase CSP to 72 without adjusting HSP. The heat from continued fermentation will probably get me to 71 or 72 to wrap up.

Day or two before I dump yeast I soft crash by changing
CSP - 55
HSP - 20
CLL - 40
HLL - 75
I dump yeast and dry hop at that temperature

From there I usually will wait 24-48 hours and then cold crash all the way
CSP - 30
HSP - 20
CLL - 22
HLL - 75

 

[boondocksaint]

Looks good! I actually removed the entire plastic door liner to get all those shelves out of the way on my freezer but looks like you didn't have to go that far.

For the Auber there are 4 settings I adjust regularly. I believe rest of the settings are on factory.

typical during fermentation with US-05 will start like this (assuming I pitched the yeast at about 65-67):

CSP - cold set point is the temp the freezer comes on - 68
HSP - hot set point is the point the heater comes on - 67
CLL - cold lower limit - 55
HLL - hot higher limit - 75

After about 3-4 days fermentation will be slowing and I increase CSP to 72 without adjusting HSP. The heat from continued fermentation will probably get me to 71 or 72 to wrap up.

Day or two before I dump yeast I soft crash by changing
CSP - 55
HSP - 20
CLL - 40
HLL - 75
I dump yeast and dry hop at that temperature

From there I usually will wait 24-48 hours and then cold crash all the way
CSP - 30
HSP - 20
CLL - 22
HLL - 75

 

[boondocksaint]

Thanks man! That’s super helpful!

 

[boondocksaint]

Looks good! I actually removed the entire plastic door liner to get all those shelves out of the way on my freezer but looks like you didn't have to go that far.

For the Auber there are 4 settings I adjust regularly. I believe rest of the settings are on factory.

typical during fermentation with US-05 will start like this (assuming I pitched the yeast at about 65-67):

CSP - cold set point is the temp the freezer comes on - 68
HSP - hot set point is the point the heater comes on - 67
CLL - cold lower limit - 55
HLL - hot higher limit - 75

After about 3-4 days fermentation will be slowing and I increase CSP to 72 without adjusting HSP. The heat from continued fermentation will probably get me to 71 or 72 to wrap up.

Day or two before I dump yeast I soft crash by changing
CSP - 55
HSP - 20
CLL - 40
HLL - 75
I dump yeast and dry hop at that temperature

From there I usually will wait 24-48 hours and then cold crash all the way
CSP - 30
HSP - 20
CLL - 22
HLL - 75

When you soft crash and/or fully cold crash how do you avoid “suck back” assuming you’re using a blow off tube in a jar/bucket of sanitizer?

 

[eric19312]

When you soft crash and/or fully cold crash how do you avoid “suck back” assuming you’re using a blow off tube in a jar/bucket of sanitizer?

When fermentation slows down I swap the blow off tube for the gas manifold with a blowtie spunding valve on it's gas post. I maintain some pressure over the beer from that point on.

 

[boondocksaint]

I’m not ’yet’ familiar with the blowtie valve. I did get the manifold bundle with the gas post so I suppose that’ll be the next purchase! Haha…it never ends…cheers!