Conical Dump Questions

[eightysixCJ]

Hello all,

My first time using a conical and have some questions regarding the dump.

6.5 gallons brown ale
14 gallon Ferminator
1/2" NPT dump
Attached to the dump is:
Sight glass, 45* elbow, 1/2" ball valve

Fermentation was strong within 12 hours of pitch (judging from the airlock activity)
After 48 hours fermentation slowed. I could see material had settled in the sight glass.

I proceeded to dump after 5o hours. I removed the relief valve to let air in and opened the dump ball valve. A bit of material came out then stopped. I waited about 30 minutes and still nothing moving. I inserted a piece of sanitized stainless steel wire into the valve. A twist of the wire and the flow began. I drained out until the material in the sight glass was gone, the beer was still somewhat cloudy with sediment. I removed about a pint in total and closed the valve. I plan to keep checking the sight glass and dump material when it build up again.

Update: 8 hours later more sediment in the sight glass.

My questions:

- I learned the material would be slow but is it ok to snake it to get it going?

- did I wait too long to dump? When is the best time to dump/what should I look for?

- how clear should the beer be in the sight glass before closing the valve?

- any tips for making the most of a conical would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Tom

 

[Bobby_M]

You will continue to have issues dumping through 1/2" without a little co2 pressure on the headspace. In fact letting air in is a worse fate for the beer than leaving it on the yeast so I wouldn't do it until you get co2.

 

[eightysixCJ]

You will continue to have issues dumping through 1/2" without a little co2 pressure on the headspace. In fact letting air in is a worse fate for the beer than leaving it on the yeast so I wouldn't do it until you get co2.

I have CO2 and can hook it up. What PSI should I add?

Tom

 

[Brooothru]

Depends on your fermenter. I've got an Ss Brewtech Chronicle that is only rated to ~2-2.5 psi and a Unitank rated at 15 psi. After the boil I pump the whirlpooled wort into either of the sealed and purged fermenters, then chill to around 50F to drop as much trub and hop debris as possible for 6 or 8 hours.

Then I pressurize to 1-2 psi and slowly open the bottom dump valve until the wort in the sight glass begins to clear. Then I pitch yeast and oxygenate after pitching. Active fermentation usually starts within a few hours.

In the next day or so more trub will have settled out, so I'll dump again with 1-2 psi. You may get some yeast in this dump, but if it's at high Krausen your wort will never miss it. When it comes time to harvest the yeast you'll find it's remarkably clean and easy to wash.

The first trub dump usually yields 1-2 quarts (liters), and the second dump probably half that amount, depending on your hops in the boil pot and your original grain bill. I've taken the approach of letting the hops go "commando" in the boil and not worrying much if I get sediment from the whirlpool into my fermenter since most of it settles and gets removed before it will adversely affect flavor in the fermenting beer.

This process works well for me. Just be careful to not exceed the pressure rating of your fermenter. And be sure to open the dump valve SLOWLY. You won't believe how far that trub will shoot out when it breaks a clog! BTDT.

Brooo Brother

 

[eightysixCJ]

Depends on your fermenter. I've got an Ss Brewtech Chronicle that is only rated to ~2-2.5 psi and a Unitank rated at 15 psi. After the boil I pump the whirlpooled wort into either of the sealed and purged fermenters, then chill to around 50F to drop as much trub and hop debris as possible for 6 or 8 hours.

Then I pressurize to 1-2 psi and slowly open the bottom dump valve until the wort in the sight glass begins to clear. Then I pitch yeast and oxygenate after pitching. Active fermentation usually starts within a few hours.

In the next day or so more trub will have settled out, so I'll dump again with 1-2 psi. You may get some yeast in this dump, but if it's at high Krausen your wort will never miss it. When it comes time to harvest the yeast you'll find it's remarkably clean and easy to wash.

The first trub dump usually yields 1-2 quarts (liters), and the second dump probably half that amount, depending on your hops in the boil pot and your original grain bill. I've taken the approach of letting the hops go "commando" in the boil and not worrying much if I get sediment from the whirlpool into my fermenter since most of it settles and gets removed before it will adversely affect flavor in the fermenting beer.

This process works well for me. Just be careful to not exceed the pressure rating of your fermenter. And be sure to open the dump valve SLOWLY. You won't believe how far that trub will shoot out when it breaks a clog! BTDT.

Brooo Brother

Cool, this is very helpful! Thanks,

Tom

 

[eightysixCJ]

Depends on your fermenter. I've got an Ss Brewtech Chronicle that is only rated to ~2-2.5 psi and a Unitank rated at 15 psi. After the boil I pump the whirlpooled wort into either of the sealed and purged fermenters, then chill to around 50F to drop as much trub and hop debris as possible for 6 or 8 hours.

Then I pressurize to 1-2 psi and slowly open the bottom dump valve until the wort in the sight glass begins to clear. Then I pitch yeast and oxygenate after pitching. Active fermentation usually starts within a few hours.

In the next day or so more trub will have settled out, so I'll dump again with 1-2 psi. You may get some yeast in this dump, but if it's at high Krausen your wort will never miss it. When it comes time to harvest the yeast you'll find it's remarkably clean and easy to wash.

The first trub dump usually yields 1-2 quarts (liters), and the second dump probably half that amount, depending on your hops in the boil pot and your original grain bill. I've taken the approach of letting the hops go "commando" in the boil and not worrying much if I get sediment from the whirlpool into my fermenter since most of it settles and gets removed before it will adversely affect flavor in the fermenting beer.

This process works well for me. Just be careful to not exceed the pressure rating of your fermenter. And be sure to open the dump valve SLOWLY. You won't believe how far that trub will shoot out when it breaks a clog! BTDT.

Brooo Brother

Second try today. Hooked up to CO2 and set the regulator to about 3-4PSI. The Ferminator has a pressure release cap on it (I think 3.5#). Opened the dump and no issue. About 2 quarts and the sight glass looked to be clean beer. I'll check daily.

I'm cooling in my boil pot then pouring from my boil pot through a strainer bag into a bucket. Aerate by poring into another bucket and back, pitch the yeast, then into the fermenter. I'm not set up with a pump or a fitting on my boil pot.

- any recommendations on my process?

- Should I start dumping as soon as see the trub settle in the sight glass?

Thanks,

Tom

 

[mongoose33]

This is an honest question--why the focus on dumping trub as quickly as you can?

I have a conical, sight glass, all that stuff. I've done a few dozen fermentations in it, and I have never dumped trub. Some even argue there is value to leaving the trub in there, promotes yeast health, and so on.

I've produced a lot of what I think is exceptional beer, and I have friends and acquaintances who agree. Friends want to pay store prices for my beer if I supply them. No license so that doesn't happen, but still. I even have a local bar owner who wants to sell my beer (no license, again).

That's all despite never having dumped trub.

Now, I suppose if there was so much trub it covered the racking arm, well, sure, but that never happens.

So what am I missing here? Not trying to pick a fight, maybe I learn something here.

 

[Brooothru]

Second try today. Hooked up to CO2 and set the regulator to about 3-4PSI. The Ferminator has a pressure release cap on it (I think 3.5#). Opened the dump and no issue. About 2 quarts and the sight glass looked to be clean beer. I'll check daily.

I'm cooling in my boil pot then pouring from my boil pot through a strainer bag into a bucket. Aerate by poring into another bucket and back, pitch the yeast, then into the fermenter. I'm not set up with a pump or a fitting on my boil pot.

- any recommendations on my process?

- Should I start dumping as soon as see the trub settle in the sight glass?

Thanks,

Tom

I'd wait for a while. Before I started doing a soft crash after transferring, I'd wait about 48 hours to let the trub settle but not compact too much before dumping. With chilling to about 50F the process is much quicker so I can wait to pitch until after the first dump after 6-8 hours.

My old method was to transfer from the boil pot until I started getting a lot of sediment. Problem was I left a gallon or more of murky liquid in the BV. I'd dump it into a 2 1/2 gal. carboy and refrigerate it over night and recover at least a gallon of clear wort. Now with a conical I just let it settle out after I transfer and dump the trub out the bottom until I see clear wort in the sight glass.

Less handling, less splashing, less exposure to oxidation. Win, win, WIN. Glad the low pressure CO2 worked out for you.

Brooo Brother

 

[eightysixCJ]

This is an honest question--why the focus on dumping trub as quickly as you can?

I have a conical, sight glass, all that stuff. I've done a few dozen fermentations in it, and I have never dumped trub. Some even argue there is value to leaving the trub in there, promotes yeast health, and so on.

I've produced a lot of what I think is exceptional beer, and I have friends and acquaintances who agree. Friends want to pay store prices for my beer if I supply them. No license so that doesn't happen, but still. I even have a local bar owner who wants to sell my beer (no license, again).

That's all despite never having dumped trub.

Now, I suppose if there was so much trub it covered the racking arm, well, sure, but that never happens.

So what am I missing here? Not trying to pick a fight, maybe I learn something here.

Good question. I'm looking to learn how to get the most from the conical and see when and how others manage the trub and lees with them. I've been fermenting and racking off when fermentation is complete plus other additions and time with other fermenters. It makes sense to have a design to dump the trub and lees then drain the brew vs racking off from above but are there other advantages to the conical design?

Tom

 

[eightysixCJ]

I'd wait for a while. Before I started doing a soft crash after transferring, I'd wait about 48 hours to let the trub settle but not compact too much before dumping. With chilling to about 50F the process is much quicker so I can wait to pitch until after the first dump after 6-8 hours.

My old method was to transfer from the boil pot until I started getting a lot of sediment. Problem was I left a gallon or more of murky liquid in the BV. I'd dump it into a 2 1/2 gal. carboy and refrigerate it over night and recover at least a gallon of clear wort. Now with a conical I just let it settle out after I transfer and dump the trub out the bottom until I see clear wort in the sight glass.

Less handling, less splashing, less exposure to oxidation. Win, win, WIN. Glad the low pressure CO2 worked out for you.

Brooo Brother

Got it! Thanks again!

Tom

 

[Brooothru]

This is an honest question--why the focus on dumping trub as quickly as you can?

I have a conical, sight glass, all that stuff. I've done a few dozen fermentations in it, and I have never dumped trub. Some even argue there is value to leaving the trub in there, promotes yeast health, and so on.

I've produced a lot of what I think is exceptional beer, and I have friends and acquaintances who agree. Friends want to pay store prices for my beer if I supply them. No license so that doesn't happen, but still. I even have a local bar owner who wants to sell my beer (no license, again).

That's all despite never having dumped trub.

Now, I suppose if there was so much trub it covered the racking arm, well, sure, but that never happens.

So what am I missing here? Not trying to pick a fight, maybe I learn something here.

I think the main reason behind dumping trub after fermentation has started would be long term stability. While it's true that there are things in trub that provide mechanisms for initial yeast growth and propagation, there are also items that are not favorable to proper aging.

Once the yeast has established itself and is rapidly reproducing, those media are no longer beneficial and are in fact detrimental. The trub at this point becomes a source of dead and decaying matter that's a source of off flavors. Best to get rid of it and let the yeast feed on that delicious maltose rather than rest on rotted vegetation. I'll defer to those much more schooled in microbiology to explain in depth and correct my limited understanding of the process.

Suffice to say that in the short term (a month or so) there's likely little degradation in your beer's quality. Beyond that, storage and care taken during brewing and fermentation will extend the life span of the brew, keeping it fresh tasting for months rather than weeks. That's the thinking behind LoDO and other brewing techniques.

I don't brew the same way I did 26 years ago. You might say I've evolved. Over the years by modifying my processes and procedures, as well as upgrading my equipment, I know my beers are markedly better and stay fresher longer. My trophy wall seems to back that up.

Plus I like to play with toys. That's why I got a conical with a sight glass and a dump valve to begin with. Might as well use 'em.

Brooo Brother

 

[Moose_MI]

I just want to take this opportunity to share my frustration with these conical threads. I’ve been trying to spend $$$ for a conical for 3 yrs and I just cant get there.
For crying out loud...I want more shiny SS in my Brew house .... isn’t there anyone that can help me understand what I’ve been missing?

 

[mongoose33]

Hmmm....I'm drinking a Rye ale I brewed in March, and it's just delicious. Didn't dump the trub in that batch.

I think that if you left beer sit on trub for months, yes, there would be some deleterious effects. But we're talking 2 weeks here, and it's really hard to see any of this as "rotting" in that time, producing off flavors and such.

When I keg, I rack the beer off the trub, and virtually none of it makes it into the keg. I suppose if you planned on a beer you're aging for a year or two, there might be some value in getting the beer off the trub. But I haven't been able to see any degradation in my beer, without trub dumps.

 

[Imhoppy]

Yea....lets see here. It takes me 4 weeks to brew (no racking to a secondary fermenter), 2 weeks to set-and-forget keg carbonate, and 4 weeks from tapping to finishing the last drop in a 5-gallon keg. Maybe add a couple of weeks waiting for the serving keg to kick. That's pretty much worst case 12 weeks from start to finish assuming I take my sweet lazy bum time on each step of my process.

So, unless one brews some kind of specialty beer that needs lots (i.e., months) of aging time, this trub talk is pretty much a non-issue IMO.

While some guys are agonizing and seemingly needlessly worrying about their trub trashing their batch, I'm already enjoying mine by quaffing a pint or two. I mean if you are gonna brew it, then don't wait so long to drink it. Like right now. [emoji481]

 

[Brooothru]

Let's see here.....It takes me 4 (sometimes 7) days to ferment, dump trub, harvest yeast (no racking to a secondary fermenter), set a spunding valve to carbonation pressure, then wait 7 (sometimes 10) days before I pressure transfer into a serving keg and start drinking beer as soon as I can get the keg into my kegerator. That was my timeline for the APA I brewed with my brother-in-law Oct. 11, 2019 (let's see, um, 19 days ago; been kegged and carbed since Oct. 21, 2019..um, 10 whole days grain to glass.

Right. Why did I wait so long (like right now) to drink it?

Brooo Brother

 

[mongoose33]

I just want to take this opportunity to share my frustration with these conical threads. I’ve been trying to spend $$$ for a conical for 3 yrs and I just cant get there.
For crying out loud...I want more shiny SS in my Brew house .... isn’t there anyone that can help me understand what I’ve been missing?

Well, you're missing more shiny SS in your brew house, for one thing....

Some of the things I can do with my Spike CF10 include closing it up toward the end of fermentation to let it self-carb (similar to bottle conditioning), oxygen-free transfers to keg are easy, I can do pressure transfers, I can ferment under pressure if I desire to do that. I can even do oxygen-free dry hopping which is tougher to do with other types of plastic fermenters. I'm implementing LODO techniques and isolating the beer from O2 after fermentation is important to me, and this helps me do that.

Is it worth the money? Who can say? Only you. If your beer is already great, celebrated by many or all, then it's hard to justify the expense. For me, this hobby has been in part about me seeing how good I can make my beer, and this is part of it.

On the other hand, the shininess......

 

[Brooothru]

Well, you're missing more shiny SS in your brew house, for one thing....

Some of the things I can do with my Spike CF10 include closing it up toward the end of fermentation to let it self-carb (similar to bottle conditioning), oxygen-free transfers to keg are easy, I can do pressure transfers, I can ferment under pressure if I desire to do that. I can even do oxygen-free dry hopping which is tougher to do with other types of plastic fermenters. I'm implementing LODO techniques and isolating the beer from O2 after fermentation is important to me, and this helps me do that.

Is it worth the money? Who can say? Only you. If your beer is already great, celebrated by many or all, then it's hard to justify the expense. For me, this hobby has been in part about me seeing how good I can make my beer, and this is part of it.

On the other hand, the shininess......

We're on parallel tracks here. I had to look closely to see if I had written your post!

I can't justify the $$$ I spend on this hobby, other than I really enjoy the whole brewing process. Sometimes I think I like making beer more than drinking beer, but that's a big "maybe".

I'm currently in the process of collaborating with a local brewpub in producing one of my beers that they're going to serve in the restaurant and bar. It's amazing to see how (in many ways) their brewing processes are less intricate and involved than many homebrew setups that people on this forum utilize. They do brew very good and authentically "true to style" beers, however. (their Koelsch is as good or better than any I ever had in Koln).

They are consummate craft brewers with years of training and experience rather than just a few guys who opened a brewery. It's been a great experience working with them, even though I'm just on the periphery.

I'm always looking for new techniques to up my game while streamlining the process. That usually means spending money. Thankfully SWMBO (who neither likes nor drinks beer) is tolerant and understanding. At least, she says, it keeps me out of bars!

Brooo Brother

 

[mongoose33]

We're on parallel tracks here. I had to look closely to see if I had written your post!

Different brothers from separate mothers!

I can't justify the $$$ I spend on this hobby, other than I really enjoy the whole brewing process. Sometimes I think I like making beer more than drinking beer, but that's a big "maybe".

I think it's hard to tell what's "justified" or not. I see people spend thousands and thousands on an expensive vacation; can't tell how they justify that. If I spend $1500 on a new fancy fermenter, after I spend the money I'll still have the fermenter while those who spent it on a vacation will have some electronic images (probably) and maybe a souvenir or two.

I also really enjoy the brewing process, and what's funny is that I'm brewing more beer and drinking it less. Having to give more away.

I'm currently in the process of collaborating with a local brewpub in producing one of my beers that they're going to serve in the restaurant and bar. It's amazing to see how (in many ways) their brewing processes are less intricate and involved than many homebrew setups that people on this forum utilize. They do brew very good and authentically "true to style" beers, however. (their Koelsch is as good or better than any I ever had in Koln).

They are consummate craft brewers with years of training and experience rather than just a few guys who opened a brewery. It's been a great experience working with them, even though I'm just on the periphery.

We have a local bar owner who is putting in a new brewing setup (7-barrel, I think) and part of their plan is to brew recipes of local home brewers. Sounds familiar!

I'm always looking for new techniques to up my game while streamlining the process. That usually means spending money. Thankfully SWMBO (who neither likes nor drinks beer) is tolerant and understanding. At least, she says, it keeps me out of bars!

My wife, who will drink the occasional beer, is also tolerant. Plus, should I ever move up to other equipment, or decide to cease brewing, I can sell off my equipment adn at least recover some of the cost. Never heard of anyone who went on a vacation able to do that.

 

[Qhrumphf]

1) I wouldn't dump any more than pure cold break until your beer is conditioned. If you're getting good separation in your kettle (ie clear wort, no trub) you shouldn't have more than a cup and probably a lot less than that. 60 BARRELS will produce only a few quarts of cold break.

2) I wouldn't dump to clear beer. Just until it starts to thin. And *slowly slowly slowly*. If you dump quickly thin beer will punch holes in thick yeast.

3) As you've learned, you need it under pressure. I put 5 PSI head pressure and the tank barely climbs.

4) I adamantly refuse to use anything threaded cold side. That is screaming for contamination. Dump the NPT and get some sanitary TC fittings. A sanitary diaphragm valve is the ideal for trub/yeast dumps. Stick a butterfly on the dump valve and a diaphragm below it.


I would dump *cold break* 24 hrs after pitching. When your beer is *conditioned* and not before (but also not after!), soft crash it under steady 1-2 PSI, dump cold break again (shouldn't be much at all), and then harvest all that good yeast that comes after. Then do a full crash w/ or w/out finings (again under pressure!), give it a couple days, dump again, and you're off to the races.

In all cases I'm never dumping to clear beer.

 

[eric19312]

I use immersion chiller and have difficulty getting really good kettle separation. If I whirlpool hot the junk falls down fast but if I whirlpool to cold (while chilling) that kettle might take hours to really drop bright.

On my current batch I decided to try chilling (with recirculation) to 75F, and then transferring almost entire volume into the conical. Along with hot break and cold break I guess I transferred close to 10 ounces of pellet hops into there. I set fermentation control to 66 and let it sit. Freezer ferm chamber is not as quick to chill as the glycol coil I guess, took about 4 hours to get to 68 and then I dumped a quart of trub and pitched my yeast and oxygenated. Next morning I dumped another quart of trub. I let that quart sit out undisturbed 12 hours and can say it was about 80% hoppy trub-less than a cup of clear beer separated.

So did I ruin my beer?

Edited to add I initially transferred about 17.5 gallons to the fermentor.

 

[eightysixCJ]

1) I wouldn't dump any more than pure cold break until your beer is conditioned. If you're getting good separation in your kettle (ie clear wort, no trub) you shouldn't have more than a cup and probably a lot less than that. 60 BARRELS will produce only a few quarts of cold break.

2) I wouldn't dump to clear beer. Just until it starts to thin. And *slowly slowly slowly*. If you dump quickly thin beer will punch holes in thick yeast.

3) As you've learned, you need it under pressure. I put 5 PSI head pressure and the tank barely climbs.

4) I adamantly refuse to use anything threaded cold side. That is screaming for contamination. Dump the NPT and get some sanitary TC fittings. A sanitary diaphragm valve is the ideal for trub/yeast dumps. Stick a butterfly on the dump valve and a diaphragm below it.


I would dump *cold break* 24 hrs after pitching. When your beer is *conditioned* and not before (but also not after!), soft crash it under steady 1-2 PSI, dump cold break again (shouldn't be much at all), and then harvest all that good yeast that comes after. Then do a full crash w/ or w/out finings (again under pressure!), give it a couple days, dump again, and you're off to the races.

In all cases I'm never dumping to clear beer.

This is very helpful!

The Ferminator had threaded fittings and three piece valves. I added NTP/sanitary fittings and the sight glass etc are sanitary. I'll look into getting sanitary fittings for the fermenter side and new valves. I can see the sanitary system is way better/easier than the complete disassembly and sanitizing the NPT fittings I have been using.

Thank you very much!

Tom

 

[Qhrumphf]

I also wouldn't be shoving anything up your dump valve to unstick it. Worse case scenario, hook up some higher pressure CO2 (like 30 PSI) to the bottom and blow that up for a split second. It'll disturb the sediment you're trying to knock off so I'd avoid it unless you have to. If you're under pressure it's seldom an issue.

WorST case scenario, backflush using a heat-pasteurized line pumping near-boiling water, just until it flows. This is a huge pain even in a commercial brewery, would be *very* difficult to accomplish at home. And I then wouldn't harvest from that tank either. It'll get it flowing but is an absolute last resort (unless you're dumping an empty fermenter, then it's often a timesaver).

 

[Qhrumphf]

I use immersion chiller and have difficulty getting really good kettle separation. If I whirlpool hot the junk falls down fast but if I whirlpool to cold (while chilling) that kettle might take hours to really drop bright.

On my current batch I decided to try chilling (with recirculation) to 75F, and then transferring almost entire volume into the conical. Along with hot break and cold break I guess I transferred close to 10 ounces of pellet hops into there. I set fermentation control to 66 and let it sit. Freezer ferm chamber is not as quick to chill as the glycol coil I guess, took about 4 hours to get to 68 and then I dumped a quart of trub and pitched my yeast and oxygenated. Next morning I dumped another quart of trub. I let that quart sit out undisturbed 12 hours and can say it was about 80% hoppy trub-less than a cup of clear beer separated.

So did I ruin my beer?

Edited to add I initially transferred about 17.5 gallons to the fermentor.

If you had a lot of hot break and kettle hops in there, I'd say you did the right thing.