Concerns about not pasteurizing

[jhespe]

So, I have posted a couple of times to this forum. In one of those posts I mentioned that I pasteurize prior to fermenting. I received several responses where people mentioned that I could have a much better tasting cider if I don't pasteurize it prior to fermenting. I normally make my own All Grain beer, but every fall make several kegs of Cider. In beer making there is absolutely no room for unsterilized anything touching your wort prior to fermenting. So I am curious.

My press/grinder is not sterilized, the bucket the juice flows into is not sterilized, how on earth would this juice not be all bacteria laden?

I would really hate to lose all my cider as picking crushing and juicing the apples is a lot of work.
Thanks

 

[Drewed]

Ahh, you are pressing your own juice. That is a different story. I would guess that the majority of us cider makers are buying the cider from a vender, not producing our own. Any person selling their cider has to follow strict sanitation standards. Most, if not all, cider in the USA has either been pasteurized (not good, but not bad,) sulfated ( very bad, wont ferment,) or UV treated (best option, IMO)

I'd still be tempted to keep back a couple of gallons and make a small batch to see what happens.

 

[Maylar]

If by pasteurizing you mean boiling, cider and wine makers avoid that because the fruit changes drastically. You go from fresh pressed juice to cooked apples (think "pie"). Heating also sets the pectin in fruit, and the cider will never clear.

Yes, there are wild yeasts and bacteria in unpasteurized juice that need to be dealt with. Potassium metabisulfite added 24 hrs before pitching yeast is the most common way to do that.

 

[Drewed]

You dont need to go to a full boil either:
160 degrees F for at least 6 seconds
165 degrees F for at least 2.8 seconds
Heck if your doing it in a big pot with a temp probe, you will get at least 5 degrees of carry over. You could kill the heat at 155 and watch it rise to 160. Unless you have a cooler.

 

[jhespe]

Thank you, so I wasn't crazy. Good to know. Yes I am only bringing it up to 165. Might even try 160. I have had no trouble with clarity although I do use a clarifier.
Thanks for the info.

 

[Mainer]

I press my own, and I do not pasteurize. There are undoubtedly some bacteria there, but from what I've been told, the alcohol will eventually kill of most, if not all, harmful bacteria.

I've read up a lot on cider production, and the reason many people favor not pasteurizing is lactobacillus, the same bacteria that creates lactic acid in sour beers. In a long-term cider fermentation, lactobacillus has the ability to convert the naturally-occurring malic acid in apples into lactic acid. Many brewers prefer the taste of lactic acid, considering it a "smoother" acidity than the perceived sharp and bitter taste of malic acid. By pasteurizing, you kill not only the harmful bacteria, but also that perceived beneficial one.

As with any brewing choice, pasteurization is an aesthetic decision, so you shouldn't feel badly about pasteurizing, but that's why many people would encourage you to use unpasteurized.

 

[Mainer]

(Also, some cider producers I know prefer wild yeast to cultivated yeast, asserting that it gives a lower attenuation, leaving a pleasant residual sweetness that they enjoy. Me, I like my ciders dry, so I pitch cultivated yeast.)

 

[Yooper]

I press my own, and I do not pasteurize. There are undoubtedly some bacteria there, but from what I've been told, the alcohol will eventually kill of most, if not all, harmful bacteria.

I've read up a lot on cider production, and the reason many people favor not pasteurizing is lactobacillus, the same bacteria that creates lactic acid in sour beers. In a long-term cider fermentation, lactobacillus has the ability to convert the naturally-occurring malic acid in apples into lactic acid. Many brewers prefer the taste of lactic acid, considering it a "smoother" acidity than the perceived sharp and bitter taste of malic acid. By pasteurizing, you kill not only the harmful bacteria, but also that perceived beneficial one.

As with any brewing choice, pasteurization is an aesthetic decision, so you shouldn't feel badly about pasteurizing, but that's why many people would encourage you to use unpasteurized.

It's not ALL lactobacillus that does the MLF- most lactobacillus will create a very sour tart drink and is not desirable in cider!

I use sulfite on my fresh pressed cider to kill the wild yeast and other microbes, before introducing my own yeast. But many others don't use any sulfite at all, and some will even do a wild ferment with the wild yeast on the apples.

 

[Mainer]

It's not ALL lactobacillus that does the MLF- most lactobacillus will create a very sour tart drink and is not desirable in cider!

I use sulfite on my fresh pressed cider to kill the wild yeast and other microbes, before introducing my own yeast. But many others don't use any sulfite at all, and some will even do a wild ferment with the wild yeast on the apples.

I was not aware of this. Maybe it explains why my cider is so tart.
Or maybe it's the fact that I used mix of foraged apples, including a relatively high crabapple count.

 

[Scrumpy!]

No need to pasteurize your must. In fact you will get a more full bodied and complex cider if you let it ferment naturally. When you add sulfite to your fresh must, it kills the bacteria but only stuns the yeast. The native yeast recovers and does a fine job of fermenting the must without any risk of bacteria ruining it. If you think you need to add yeast, at least use yeast strains that were developed for wine or cider.

Keep in mind that for the first few thousand years of cider making, people didn't even know yeast existed! Now we have a forum full of people who add industrial beer and ale yeast to make cider. Since these strains of yeast were specifically developed to ferment beer, it is little wonder that they have mixed results when they use beer/ale yeast for cider. Its kind of like using vice grips when you should be using your socket set.

But hey, they both make an alcoholic beverage that we all like so why be such a purist Scrumpy?

As to your tart cider, go with a spontaneous ferment so you don't take your cider to the point where it is dryer than a camel fart. Ferment the crab must separately from your scrumped apples then blend it judiciously at bottling time to get just the right snap and pucker.