Co2 from winemaking can be fatal
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Good warning for fermenting in any poorly-vented area. Thanks for posting.
That's one more reason I have a lock on my chest freezer ferm chamber out in the garage. I don't want some kid crawling in there and suffocating from the CO2 that builds up in it.
Suffocating from CO2 is a particularly shiatty way to die. The human body has a strong reflex to it.
That's one more reason I have a lock on my chest freezer ferm chamber out in the garage. I don't want some kid crawling in there and suffocating from the CO2 that builds up in it.
Suffocating from CO2 is a particularly shiatty way to die. The human body has a strong reflex to it.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
How many tens, or hundreds, of gallons were they fermenting? IMO, at the homebrew scale, there's no danger.
It's a definite safety issue in large brewery cellars. Retail beer coolers as well. Both should have CO2 alarms. Pretty sure it's an OSHA requirement.
There was an issue years ago at a Mexican brewery (Modelo I think) where several workers died in a similar fashion, each trying to rescue the prior after they'd passed out in a high CO2 environment.
In this case it sounds like they were fermenting a significant amount in a tight enclosed area (not clear from article if this is an amateur or commercial venture). I suppose unless you have fermenters in a tight area, (like a chest freezer or keg fridge) most homebrewers shouldn't have issue, but good to keep in the back of your mind.
There was an issue years ago at a Mexican brewery (Modelo I think) where several workers died in a similar fashion, each trying to rescue the prior after they'd passed out in a high CO2 environment.
In this case it sounds like they were fermenting a significant amount in a tight enclosed area (not clear from article if this is an amateur or commercial venture). I suppose unless you have fermenters in a tight area, (like a chest freezer or keg fridge) most homebrewers shouldn't have issue, but good to keep in the back of your mind.
Yes it does. Which is why I wonder about the veracity of this story. Those folks should have been choking and fighting their way out of that room.
From the Too Much Info dept: When the body suffocates, it actually does it pleasantly and painlessly if the CO2 isn't present. So, if you are inhaling another gas, lets say nitrogen, you'd just keep breathing happily until you got lightheaded and passed out. But with CO2, your body convulses. (increases co2 = increased blood pH = body reacting).
I was trained as a fireman in a life a long time ago and went through confined space training (Baton Rouge LA I think). Tanks of any kind present a real hazard if there was any possibility of CO2 in them (or any other heavy gas).
I suppose I'm not the only homebrewer who, early in their hobby, once took a deep sniff in their fermenting bucket. That hurts.
I had a co-worker who killed himself with CO2 inside his car.
My first thought was: "Why didn't we see he needed help?"
My second thought was: "Man, that must have been a painful way to go".
I had a co-worker who killed himself with CO2 inside his car.
My first thought was: "Why didn't we see he needed help?"
My second thought was: "Man, that must have been a painful way to go".
I remember during a distillery tour, walking into the fermenting room where a huge vat was under us. the tour guide said something like "This smells so good- lean over and take a big whiff", and about 1/2 of the tourists did, and choked/gagged from the c02. It was funny to those of us who were not so dumb, but silly too.
This is a warning to people driving around with their full c02 tank they just refilled in their back seat.
This is a warning to people driving around with their full c02 tank they just refilled in their back seat.
This is why I have a CO2 alarm in my basement. Don't want my 20 lb and the two 5 lb cylinders suffocating my kid.
OP
OP
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Some more more details came out: it was in the basement of a house and they were racking the wine to barrels. There are some photos that show at least 4 barrels but it doesn't say how much wine was being made. If they were filling barrels I suppose they were making at least 50 gallons in one vat, maybe more?
For those of you good at math, how much wine would you need to ferment in order to saturate a basement room with CO2? I realize there are many factors including the size of the space and to what extent the room is actually air-tight.
A quick Google search indicates that 25% CO2 will cause death in after "a few breaths" and that 15% is a "lethal concentration". I make a large quantity of wine/cider in the fall, have an old, drafty farmhouse and never really worried about it, but how much at one time is too much?
Here's the article with the photos:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...killed-trying-save-fumes-fermenting-wine.html
For those of you good at math, how much wine would you need to ferment in order to saturate a basement room with CO2? I realize there are many factors including the size of the space and to what extent the room is actually air-tight.
A quick Google search indicates that 25% CO2 will cause death in after "a few breaths" and that 15% is a "lethal concentration". I make a large quantity of wine/cider in the fall, have an old, drafty farmhouse and never really worried about it, but how much at one time is too much?
Here's the article with the photos:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...killed-trying-save-fumes-fermenting-wine.html
DuncB
Well-Known Member
@MaxStout
Not sure that CO2 intoxication that bad a way to go. In a slow case respiratory rate or "air hunger" will rise as the CO2 level rises, this might induce feelings of panic, but if the oxygen levels are falling in a closed system your senses will obtund and you will slowly lose consciousness as you go grey / blue.
If you enter an environment very high in CO2 you will rapidly lose consciousness and then die.
Drowning, sharks, snakes could be worse.
PS you can only suffocate from a lack of oxygen.
So lots of oxygen and a high level of CO2 will really make you feel awful.
Not sure that CO2 intoxication that bad a way to go. In a slow case respiratory rate or "air hunger" will rise as the CO2 level rises, this might induce feelings of panic, but if the oxygen levels are falling in a closed system your senses will obtund and you will slowly lose consciousness as you go grey / blue.
If you enter an environment very high in CO2 you will rapidly lose consciousness and then die.
Drowning, sharks, snakes could be worse.
PS you can only suffocate from a lack of oxygen.
So lots of oxygen and a high level of CO2 will really make you feel awful.
The easy answer if you're concerned is to get a CO2 alarm. Not the same thing is a CO alarm, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide are different. A CO alarm anyone with combustion devices at home should absolutely have (gas stove, gas water heater, fireplace, etc). The former isn't as common or widely needed for home use (as most people aren't handling heavy amounts of CO2 at home), but can be purchased online easily, and are very common commercially. Just need to make sure you're getting CO2, as searching for it most results will be CO alarms.
An NIH piece on CO2 toxicity:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380556/
It mentions exposure to >10% CO2 levels, stating it can lead to convulsions, coma and death.
I wouldn't characterize that as "not such a bad way to die."
Higher concentrations do cause unconsciousness and death more quickly.
It did mention cases of deaths occurring with concentrations as low as 14.1%. Which tells me having a lot of fermentation within a tight space could be dangerous. Fermenters in closets and such.
A CO2 alarm might be a wise investment.
Some states are looking into using inert gases as a means of execution, particularly pure nitrogen. There's a reason they are not considering CO2: the body's natural, violent reaction to the gas. Responding to CO2 levels is the body's way of maintaing breathing as an automatic function.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380556/
It mentions exposure to >10% CO2 levels, stating it can lead to convulsions, coma and death.
I wouldn't characterize that as "not such a bad way to die."
Higher concentrations do cause unconsciousness and death more quickly.
It did mention cases of deaths occurring with concentrations as low as 14.1%. Which tells me having a lot of fermentation within a tight space could be dangerous. Fermenters in closets and such.
A CO2 alarm might be a wise investment.
Some states are looking into using inert gases as a means of execution, particularly pure nitrogen. There's a reason they are not considering CO2: the body's natural, violent reaction to the gas. Responding to CO2 levels is the body's way of maintaing breathing as an automatic function.
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The convulsions you feel when you hold your breathe long enough is CO2 intoxication. Not a pleasant way to go, at all. Nontoxic levels make you feel like crap. I was a tour guide in a show cave for ten years, CO2 levels were our greatest concern and we would occasionally have to shut down if they were too high.
bernardsmith
Well-Known Member
Your co-worker killed himself with carbon DI-oxide and not monoxide? Suicide is frequently committed using the exhaust pipe of a running car but that pumps CO and not CO2. CO makes you drowsy and then you die. CO2 poisoning is not painless.
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Carbon monoxide binds to the hemoglobin in our blood just like oxygen. As long as the body is exhaling the carbon dioxide from the lungs and inhaling carbon monoxide, the body never realizes it is being deprived of oxygen.
A ~6 gal ferment of medium OG beer will produce 400 - 500 L of CO2, or 14 - 18 cu ft. A 3' x 6' x 8' closet has a volume of 144 cu ft. Thus if the closet were totally sealed, CO2 concentrations could get up to the >10% range. So, it's something you need to be wary of. Luckily, most closets are not well sealed, and the CO2 is produced over a number of days, so unless you are fermenting large quantities at once, and your room is better sealed than most, it shouldn't be a problem.
Brew on
Brew on
I did a rough calculation of a leaking CO2 tank in this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-most-frightening-things.679402/#post-8873388
Yes, CO2, not CO.
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Any suggestions for a cost-effective alarm? A quick search suggests that ‘safety grade’ alarms/monitors are pretty expensive.
No kidding--the best price for a wall-mounted CO2 detector I found on Amazon was $136.
There's this hand-held unit for about $75.
There are some "home indoor air quality" ones on Amazon for $75 or so. Assuming it's drop shipped Chinese stuff, so who knows what the quality is.
Yes, they are not cheap. I have one of these:
https://www.co2meter.com/collections/fixed-wall-mount/products/remote-co2-storage-safety-dual-alarm
No doubt it’s overkill, but if anything happened to my family, I would not forgive myself. My daughter is trained not to go into the basement if the red light is flashing and the alarm is sounding. A high CO2 condition also activates a relay that turns on my extractor fan.
https://www.co2meter.com/collections/fixed-wall-mount/products/remote-co2-storage-safety-dual-alarm
No doubt it’s overkill, but if anything happened to my family, I would not forgive myself. My daughter is trained not to go into the basement if the red light is flashing and the alarm is sounding. A high CO2 condition also activates a relay that turns on my extractor fan.
OP
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madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Perhaps just crack a basement window when you've got a fermentation going down there......
It’s a CO2 cylinder leak that concerns me, not fermentation. My CO2 meter is right next to the fermenters (you can see it on the wall behind the valve on the blow-off arm). It barely ticks up over 900 ppm even when both are actively fermenting. Background level in the basement is about 450-500 ppm.
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Two reflections:
First, I remember having a CO2 leak in one of the fittings in the keezer. When I put my head in there to see what was up, I came up gagging.
Second, I was at a club-sponsored brewday at a local brewery and the Head Brewer mentioned how important ventilation was when all of the conicals were rolling full tilt. He came in early one morning, bent down to tie a shoelace and almost passed out, as CO2 is heavier than the regular atmosphere. If he hadn't gotten right up and out, we would have been hearing the story from his replacement.
First, I remember having a CO2 leak in one of the fittings in the keezer. When I put my head in there to see what was up, I came up gagging.
Second, I was at a club-sponsored brewday at a local brewery and the Head Brewer mentioned how important ventilation was when all of the conicals were rolling full tilt. He came in early one morning, bent down to tie a shoelace and almost passed out, as CO2 is heavier than the regular atmosphere. If he hadn't gotten right up and out, we would have been hearing the story from his replacement.
This is an important factor. They were making wine in the basement with inadequate ventilation.
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