Citrus like acidity

[The_Glue]

So i have brewed this:

5gal
OG 1.060
IBU 60

pale ale malt

1oz Citra 60min
1oz Citra 10min
1oz Wai-Iti 10min
3oz Wai-Iti 0min

no dryhops

Upon bottling it not only smelled citrusy as expected but also tasted a bit like citrus/acid. Is it normal or is that infection? I never thought that hops could
taste citrusy, it really tastes like a summer refresher kinda beer.

I also added about 100ppm (0.1g/l or 0.38g/gal) citric acid to the water to lower the mash ph somewhat, according to a post here it should be below the taste treshold.

(both of these hops are described pretty citrusy)

 

[Soviet]

Hops definitely taste and smell citrusy, depending on the variety. I'm a little concerned about the citric acid usage—have you ever acidified your water before? Do you have a pH meter or strips?

I haven't worked with citric acid, so I don't know the flavor impact or concentrations. I myself work with phosphoric acid, and I use a PH meter to verify that my PH is being adjusted to the correct degree. If your beer is actually tasting a bit sour, you may have overdone it on the citric acid or it may have a larger flavor impact than you thought.

Before acidifying your water, working with new kinds of acids, or trying to adjust your PH, make sure you have the right equipment so that you're not flying blind. (please correct me if I'm making the wrong assumption).

 

[The_Glue]

Hops definitely taste and smell citrusy, depending on the variety. I'm a little concerned about the citric acid usage—have you ever acidified your water before? Do you have a pH meter or strips?

I haven't worked with citric acid, so I don't know the flavor impact or concentrations. I myself work with phosphoric acid, and I use a PH meter to verify that my PH is being adjusted to the correct degree. If your beer is actually tasting a bit sour, you may have overdone it on the citric acid or it may have a larger flavor impact than you thought.

Before acidifying your water, working with new kinds of acids, or trying to adjust your PH, make sure you have the right equipment so that you're not flying blind. (please correct me if I'm making the wrong assumption).

I used Bru'n Water to calculate my salt additions and the ph came out at 5.5 so i added citric acid to the water to bring down the ph to 5.3.

(according to Bru'n Water phosporic and citric is pretty similar strenghtwise)

Btw i could not taste it in the water after i added it.

i did some searches and i've seen things like Zombie Dust described as lemony/acidic in taste so maybe i taste just that.

 

[RmikeVT]

So i have brewed this:

5gal
OG 1.060
IBU 60

pale ale malt

1oz Citra 60min
1oz Citra 10min
1oz Wai-Iti 10min
3oz Wai-Iti 0min

no dryhops

Upon bottling it not only smelled citrusy as expected but also tasted a bit like citrus/acid. Is it normal or is that infection? I never thought that hops could
taste citrusy, it really tastes like a summer refresher kinda beer.

I also added about 100ppm (0.1g/l or 0.38g/gal) citric acid to the water to lower the mash ph somewhat, according to a post here it should be below the taste treshold.

(both of these hops are described pretty citrusy)

That beer you just brewed has 5oz of hops going in in the last 10 minutes. You are going to have a ton of citrus flavors and aromas. What you are describing sounds like what a hop head wants.

Here is morebeer's description of those Wai Iti hop:
These hops will not bitter your beer heavily, but instead impart a strong citrus character. Specific aromas of Lemon, Lime Zest, and Mandarin will come out in your beer. A fantastic hop to try in any Pale Ale, IPA or Wheat beer.

And Citra:
Citrus, apricot, and overall melon aromas. Ideal for all American Style Pale Ales. A great dry hop addition if you're looking for that "hop bomb" in the nose.

What were you expecting, I'm not being a smart a**, I'm just curious?

 

[Soviet]

Yeah, but there's a difference is perceived citrus flavor from hops and an acidic sourness from too much acid.

You didn't answer my question directly, but your response suggested you measured the PH. What do you use to measure PH?

 

[The_Glue]

Yeah, but there's a difference is perceived citrus flavor from hops and an acidic sourness from too much acid.

You didn't answer my question directly, but your response suggested you measured the PH. What do you use to measure PH?

I measured nothing, i believed Bru'n Water blindly. My water's alkalinity is extremely high by default btw (around 400) so even if i boil it with some added CaCl2 to lower the alkalinity according to most calculators i still need some acid.

 

[The_Glue]

That beer you just brewed has 5oz of hops going in in the last 10 minutes. You are going to have a ton of citrus flavors and aromas. What you are describing sounds like what a hop head wants.

Here is morebeer's description of those Wai Iti hop:
These hops will not bitter your beer heavily, but instead impart a strong citrus character. Specific aromas of Lemon, Lime Zest, and Mandarin will come out in your beer. A fantastic hop to try in any Pale Ale, IPA or Wheat beer.

And Citra:
Citrus, apricot, and overall melon aromas. Ideal for all American Style Pale Ales. A great dry hop addition if you're looking for that "hop bomb" in the nose.

What were you expecting, I'm not being a smart a**, I'm just curious?

This is the first time i have ever tasted these hops. (we don't have too many IPAs/APAs in my country, i tasted Anchor's Liberty Ale, SN Celebration Ale, some Brewdog stuff, some Mikkeller hoppy stuff)

I thought the hop descriptions are more like "marketing bull****" or just impressions which can vary from person to person instead of real citrusy smells and tastes.

Btw i like it i just though that it was some kind of lacto etc. infection.

 

[Soviet]

I measured nothing, i believed Bru'n Water blindly. My water's alkalinity is extremely high by default btw (around 400) so even if i boil it with some added CaCl2 to lower the alkalinity according to most calculators i still need some acid.

Do you see a fundamental problem here? Bru'n Water is a spreadsheet that's designed to get you in the ballpark (nothing is ever right on in terms of ions), but you don't know where you started and you don't know where you ended up.

I use store-bought RO water, and I still need 2-3 tbsp in 15 gallons to get my mash PH in the right range depending on my grist. Most people would say to me, "ah don't worry about it, you shouldn't need to acidify..." But they would be wrong.

Brewers are only now discovering that PH is not only a critical factor for optimal enzyme activity, but it also has a major flavor impact on the finished beer. The PH you achieve in your mash will be a major determinant of your finished beer PH. I strongly recommend that you invest in some PH strips or a digital meter before working with acid, regardless of what a spreadsheet tells you.

 

[The_Glue]

Do you see a fundamental problem here? Bru'n Water is a spreadsheet that's designed to get you in the ballpark (nothing is ever right on in terms of ions), but you don't know where you started and you don't know where you ended up.

I use store-bought RO water, and I still need 2-3 tbsp in 15 gallons to get my mash PH in the right range depending on my grist. Most people would say to me, "ah don't worry about it, you shouldn't need to acidify..." But they would be wrong.

Brewers are only now discovering that PH is not only a critical factor for optimal enzyme activity, but it also has a major flavor impact on the finished beer. The PH you achieve in your mash will be a major determinant of your finished beer PH. I strongly recommend that you invest in some PH strips or a digital meter before working with acid, regardless of what a spreadsheet tells you.

I have some ph strips but i am not sure if i could tell the difference between the colors of 5.2 and 5.4 etc. so i don't use them. I will to buy an electronic ph meter in the future.
(btw i added about 1/5th of your amount of acid to a water definitely more alkaline than RO water so i don't think i acidified my beer too much it seems more like an useless addition compared to yours)

 

[Soviet]

Again, there's flavor impact, and then there's alkalinity impact. You may very well be right about that quantity. But if you want to be a great brewer, never assume or speculate. Measure.

I have 3 times the volume of your water. Also, I know phosphoric acid has no flavor impact. Take a very small amount of citric acid and dissolve it in a glass of water. Take a little sip (be careful with the amount, and don't swallow it). Acids taste sour.. see if you can taste it. Compare to your beer and see if you can identify sourness coming from acid vs. citrusy flavor from the hops.

 

[The_Glue]

Again, there's flavor impact, and then there's alkalinity impact. You may very well be right about that quantity. But if you want to be a great brewer, never assume or speculate. Measure.

I have 3 times the volume of your water. Also, I know phosphoric acid has no flavor impact. Take a very small amount of citric acid and dissolve it in a glass of water. Take a little sip (be careful with the amount, and don't swallow it). Acids taste sour.. see if you can taste it. Compare to your beer and see if you can identify sourness coming from acid vs. citrusy flavor from the hops.

I added about 0.4tbsp to 15gal.

I tried what you said, i added about 50% more acid to make up for the concentration during boil and did a blind test with normal tap water and acid added tap water.
There was a real slim difference between the two but i am not sure if i could pick it up in beer.

 

[The_Glue]

Quick update if anyone thinking about this hop combination:

It lost it's obvious acidic, citrusy smell during bottle carbing and after 4 weeks in the bottle it lost it's US05 estery character which was absent in the primary but appeared during bottle carbing. (refermentation)

It is refreshing and nice, i can still smell citrusy things but it is also at least equal parts cat-piss and i don't know if it is the citra or the wai-iti since i have never used any of them.