Cider Making Finishing Tips, Suggestions, ...

[Glenn C Keller]

Hi. Been making hard cider for 4 years now and ran across your forum page. I’m looking for some tips for how to get a better overall taste of the cider once racked and aged as well as some ideas for finishing the cider (conditioning, spicing, flavoring, back-sweetening, …). Attached is a core dump of my cider making approach, current status of my results, and requests for any suggestions for improvements. Getting better every year but a lot of room for improvements.

The file is a couple of pages and didn't want to post a real long post.

Thanks.

 

[BILTIT]

I have used xylitol to backsweeten with above average success, but tread lightly to begin with.

I think the flavour profile is mostly the apples you use, i dont think macs are very good for cider.

 

[dmf38]

Yeah, better apples like Northern Spy and Golden Russet would make better cider. And I wouldn't add any corn sugar to it. That will just make it more harsh and flavorless. After aging it for several months to a year, you could add xylitol or erythritol to sweeten it.

 

[Glenn C Keller]

Thanks, people - I will look into using the xylitol or erythritol - the internet says that these are both nonfermentable so they can be used with bottle conditioning - great. Corn sugar was only used to up the alcohol potential to 7 - 8% ABV; I don't use very much of it any more since the pressed apples have been coming in around 1010 and makes real tasty non-alcoholic apple cider. I will check into pre-ordering a better variety of apples for next year's cider - have to check with the packing house to see if and when they can get Northern Spy and/or Golden Russet varieties.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Unless I'm missing something... 14 Brix corresponds to 1.057 specific gravity. These are different scales.
Do you have a hydrometer?

Ferment COOL!
I agree with not adding sugar, at least until you achieve your desired flavor without it.
Make small batches so you can experiment; this will drastically expedite the learning process.
Try using different yeasts.
Try using different apple blends.
I'd avoid spices or fruit until you can make a decent plain cider.

Stopping fermentation before dryness is a good option if you want it still or can force carb. A combination of cold crashing and racking can do the trick with some yeasts, and chemical stabilization provides security of you don't mind the taste.
This thread is a good read: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/results-from-juice-yeast-and-sugar-experiments.83060/

Backsweetening or artificial sweeteners are a different route, and one I personally wouldn't take.

Are you storing the bottles cool?

 

[Glenn C Keller]

Agree that in the future, I need to focus more on producing a good basic cider before adding in sweeteners or other chemicals and try to get a nice tasting reproducible recipe. Overall, eliminating any corn sugar, varying the yeasts and apple blends, and stopping fermentation are all on the roadmap for this fall.

This year, aside from the fermentation to dryness, came out pretty good. Nice apple bouquet, although one can feel the alcoholic heat in one's chest as it goes down (hi-test). Being manic about cleaning and sanitizing, knocking down the alcohol potential to make a cider rather than a wine, as well as letting the cider mellow for 6+ months have all helped.

I have a triple hydrometer; sorry about the numeric confusion - the numbers come from the Balling scale which I refer to as BRIX. If the apples start out at 10 BRIX I boost it to 14 but this year I will not use any corn sugar as you suggest and keep things simple (and the cider slightly less alcoholic). My original mentor was a wine maker; without knowing any better, I started using corn sugar to get a higher alcohol potential and actually made apple wine.

I ferment in my basement in upstate NY which is quite cool. Logistically, this place is 200 miles away from my main residence which makes it hard to keep daily tabs on progress. Temps even in the summer are around 60 degrees. Not sure what the optimal temp is to ferment - someone mentioned around 66 degrees but cooler temps slow the process down and is recommended. Aside from being able to get upstate and keep better tabs on the progress, I think that I covered with the cool basement for fermentation. Once finished and bottled, I store the bottles in my basement in my main house which is around 62 degrees.

Forgot to mention earlier that the presser has just introduced a UV pasteurizer last year so my juice is pasteurized. I suppose that I could try a batch unpasteurized or does it make much of a difference with the taste?

Ideally, I would like to stop the fermentation process and end up with some of the natural apple flavor without having to back sweeten. Thanks for the suggestions.
- Never heard of cold-crashing but I don't have refrigeration capability to do any more than a couple of gallons at a time. What if I got a top loading freezer and brought the temp down, not to freezing, but enough so that the yeasts fall to the bottom and then rack? I am going to need a top loader to freeze some of the unfermented apple juice so this might be a way to go using a 5 gal plastic carboy.
- The referenced post also suggests racking several times before the must has a chance to ferment to dryness. Suppose that this depends on the type of yeast used. Won't there always be some residual yeast left that will eventually eat all the sugar or will lowering the temp below a certain threshold point kill all the yeast? In the winter, the house is winterized and the temp in the basement gets below freezing. This hasn't seemed to hurt anything.

Obtaining different yeasts is doable but getting different apple varieties may be a problem since I have been getting 800 pounds from a packing house to save some money. I'll ask them about different varieties that they may have available but I usually just take what they give me. I do have a manual crusher and double ratcheting press for smaller batches - maybe this year the wild apples will produce.

Thanks for taking the time to offer suggestions.

 

[RPh_Guy]

There's nothing wrong with apple wine, but it's a different product that won't meet expectations for a cider. I frequently see that people aren't happy with the result when they add sugar. I use juice in the 1.050-1.060 range and ferment dry so I've never felt the need for added sugar. I have a faux ice cider fermenting that's already at 12.8% ABV and will finish sweet.

Low 60s should be good for almost any yeast you use. Optimal temp is yeast dependent, although you want it working slowly. The thinking is twofold: 1) less stress on the yeast produces less off-flavors and 2) lower apple aromatic volatility keeps more apple flavor.

Wild fermentation from unpasteurized un-sulfited juice generally produces a more interesting cider. Whether it's good or bad is a roll of the dice. Every wild batch is different.

Totally agree arresting fermentation is best rather than backsweetening. A fridge or chest freezer large enough to hold your carboy can be used to cold crash. It helps to have a temperature controller for accuracy (I use a dual stage inkbird ITC-308).
That thread author (CvilleKevin) doesn't like the taste or sorbate/sulfite so he experimented and tries to crash and rack until stable. This works better for some yeasts rather than others -- he found that it is possible to drop out 100% of the yeast with cold crashing and careful racking, sometimes repeatedly. His process is explained in great detail in that lengthy thread.
One crash and one rack with chemical stabilization should be ok for almost every yeast, or sterile filtering can be used but might cost more.
I don't have personal experience with this process.

One more thing you might consider is fermenting on the skins for a few days (5 or so). You'd need to mix in some sulfite to inhibit the wild yeast and bacteria before beginning fermentation.

BTW there's a great book called The New Cider Maker's Handbook worth reading.

Cheers

 

[Glenn C Keller]

Thanks RPh_Guy for your thoughts. I ordered the book and read through the CvilleKevin post. As far as cold crashing, this fall I will try different yeasts, sugar/no sugar, pasteurized and non-pasteurized (if the presser allows this) in different experiments and take the time to cold crash and rack before the must ferments to dryness. I am learning that the cold crash process, together with racking, can eliminate most of the yeast and can inhibit fermentation. Sounds like a good approach to retain some of the initial apple flavor and sweetness. But once cold crashed and racked with some residual sg ~ 1004, are you saying that if done properly, there will not be a need to add in any potassium sorbate to inhibit further fermentation (i.e., or eventually, will the cider get down to 1000 sg?)? Maybe I won’t need to back sweeten or add in flavoring and still have a good drink but once I get the basic cider recipe down I still want to experiment with different finishing approaches. Curious if the cold-crashing/racking is a “final” or an “intermediate” step that still would require additional chemistry to prevent further fermentation once back sweetened? Similar query regarding bottle conditioning – if I do too good of a job cold crashing won’t I be able to produce any fizziness when adding conditioning tablets?

Another topic covered in the post was the use of KMS (K-meta). Currently, I use ½ tsp/ 5 gals to kill off wild yeasts prior to pitching the yeast and also another ½ tsp/ 5 gal every time I turn over the cider to rack it. Some posts are indicating that perhaps one can avoid using K-meta (or even cut it back to ½ or ¼ of the dose) and avoid introducing any aftertastes from it; other posts recommend its use as a preservative as it does not produce any long-term taste change (although short-term, it may sour the taste but since I am letting it sit for 6 months I can deal with that.). I suppose with pasteurized juice I could avoid using the K-meta initially but am I just unnecessarily adding it in every time I rack? I thought that the post-racking addition of KMS was a good thing to do to help stave off oxidation which is why I use it. But if I am adulterating the flavor, then can it be avoided or is this done at one’s own risk?

BTW, after mellowing for 6 months using pasteurized juice, my result was crystal clear.

One more question: my primary fermentation vessels are the 30 gal hard blue containers that I fill up with 25 gals of fresh-pressed cider. I was told that I can ferment with the cover slightly ajar but no need for a bubbler until the must ferments and becomes alcohol. One year I found out the hard way that my secondary vessel absolutely needs to eliminate any oxygen (now my secondary's leave only 1” of space between the top of the liquid and the bubbler). Curious why it is not critical to eliminate oxygen during the primary fermentation process.

Not sure what you are trying to achieve by fermenting on the skins - if I pick some wild apples are you saying just let them site and sprinkle some KMS and let it sit in a cool place for 5 days to begin fermentation?

 

[RPh_Guy]

once cold crashed and racked with some residual sg ~ 1004, are you saying that if done properly, there will not be a need to add in any potassium sorbate to inhibit further fermentation?

Yes, but it's not easy, and carries some risk if you bottle it. All the details of the p process are explained in that thread

if I do too good of a job cold crashing won’t I be able to produce any fizziness when adding conditioning tablets?

You can't stop fermentation and then bottle prime for carbonation. You'll definitely want to force carb.

Sulfite is used for two things: inhibiting yeast/bacteria and preventing oxidation. When and how much you use depends on why you are using it. The book explains thoroughly. Pretty sure you'll want to keep using it.

Oxygen (aeration) early on in fermentation is good because the yeast use it to build their cell membranes. Because of this, dissolved oxygen becomes depleted during fermentation. Some people use a clean towel to allow air exchange but keep out insects.

A lot of tannins and other flavors are in the apple skin. I don't have time right now to search, but there are a couple old threads here on HBT. Something to try.

 

[Gilbert Spinning Horse]

You might try using an ale yeast rather than champagne. I use S-05 in my ciders as it stops fermenting earlier and leaves the cider less dry with more apple flavour.

 

[bmd2k1]

You might try using an ale yeast rather than champagne. I use S-05 in my ciders as it stops fermenting earlier and leaves the cider less dry with more apple flavour.

How does S-05 do when room temps are high60s-low70s?

 

[Gilbert Spinning Horse]

I ferment it around 70 in my temp controlled fermentor but I believe it has an optimum temp range of 59-75. My final gravity is usually between 1.009 and 1.006 which is not too dry with plenty of apple taste.

 

[bmd2k1]

I ferment it around 70 in my temp controlled fermentor but I believe it has an optimum temp range of 59-75. My final gravity is usually between 1.009 and 1.006 which is not too dry with plenty of apple taste.

Does it cold crash as well as S-04 does? How's flocculation & clarity?

Cheers [emoji111]

 

[Glenn C Keller]

You might try using an ale yeast rather than champagne. I use S-05 in my ciders as it stops fermenting earlier and leaves the cider less dry with more apple flavour.

Yes! This Sept - Oct I will try a number of different ale yeasts per the CvilleKevin thread : Nottingham, Safale S-04, Safale US-23 and Saflager S-23 if I can find them. Slow fermenting at 60 degrees F, keeping a watch on the progress and taking steps to halt fermentation before the must becomes rocket fuel are going to be on this year's agenda.