Chris Colby on malt conditioning

[Kaiser]

I just listened to Chris Colby’s BBR interview about malt conditioning and his techniques for conditioning malt seem much more complicated than the spay and mix process that I proposed? Steaming in the mash tun or using a partner to sprinkle the malt with hot water? Is he just trying to avoid my technique? BTW, if you pour water over the malt you will get it too wet and gum up the rollers. I’ve tried that first.

James referenced my work but Chris didn’t I doubt that he hasn’t come across malt conditioning when searching the web.

I haven’t come up with this but like to get some credit for bringing it up to the home brewers attention here in the US.

(http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr02-04-10condition.mp3)

Kai

 

[Yooper]

I didn't get a chance to listen to the podcast yet, but I did glance at the article in this months BYO. It definitely sounds like they are trying to make it harder than you've told us!

 

[Hugh_Jass]

I just listened to Chris Colby’s BBR interview about malt conditioning and his techniques for conditioning malt seem much more complicated than the spay and mix process that I proposed? Steaming in the mash tun or using a partner to sprinkle the malt with hot water? Is he just trying to avoid my technique? BTW, if you pour water over the malt you will get it too wet and gum up the rollers. I’ve tried that first.

James referenced my work but Chris didn’t I doubt that he hasn’t come across malt conditioning when searching the web.

I haven’t come up with this but like to get some credit for bringing it up to the home brewers attention here in the US.

(http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr02-04-10condition.mp3)

Kai

The malt conditioning technique is in the most recent BYO magazine. It's on the "to read" list this evening. I instantly thought "hey...Kaiser... good for him" After reading this thread, I'd be interested to read if Chris referenced your work.

Either way, nice job Kai.

 

[Hugh_Jass]

The March-April issue of BYO is not available on their website yet.

Chris Colby mentions both conditioning with steam and conditioning with hot water, but does not mention your method nor reference your work.

 

[EricCSU]

Agreed, all of the techniques seemed more complicated than your procedure.

Eric

 

[FlyGuy]

I'm not surprised at this. I doubt he has even heard of your method. Colby is VERY caught up on commercial brewing techniques and how they should be applied to the homebrewing scale. I believe this is where he adapted his two proposed methods from.

Write James and suggest he mention the easier method on the next show.

 

[EricCSU]

I'm not surprised at this. I doubt he has even heard of your method. Colby is VERY caught up on commercial brewing techniques and how they should be applied to the homebrewing scale. I believe this is where he adapted his two proposed methods from.

Write James and suggest he mention the easier method on the next show.

That is exactly the impression I got from Chris but I couldn't put my finger on it. Good call.

Eric

 

[oldschool]

Do you all think that malt conditioning is REALLY worth the effort if you are not getting a stuck mash? But it doesn't sound complicated to me either.

 

[Houblon]

I haven’t come up with this but like to get some credit for bringing it up to the home brewers attention here in the US.

Agree as it was your website I first came across the info.

I just add 200ml water stir well & go scale hops , stir the grain 1 last time before grinding. No gummed rollers yet

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Agree as it was your website I first came across the info.

I just add 200ml water stir well & go scale hops , stir the grain 1 last time before grinding. No gummed rollers yet

Me too. I stopped using a sprayer many months ago (at least 20 batches) and have never had gummed up rollers (Barley Crusher set to ~.035, ~2% water by weight). Just pour a little, mix well, pour a little, mix well, repeat.

Do you all think that malt conditioning is REALLY worth the effort if you are not getting a stuck mash? But it doesn't sound complicated to me either.

I do. It's really almost no extra effort at all. I get a much better filter/grain bed when I do it. I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes in tannins (the husks are WAY more intact with conditioned malt) but since it's so easy and aids lautering I do it every brew.

It does seem strange to go to all the trouble of steaming/whatever when you can just take a few minutes conditioning it with room temp water. I haven't listened to that interview, what's the benefit of warm water /steam?

 

[Kaiser]

I haven’t come up with this but like to get some credit for bringing it up to the home brewers attention here in the US.

The guys on the AHA forum brought to my attention that the technique of malt conditioning has been brought up by many home brewers before and that it was also mentioned in a recent Zymurgy article. I guess I never noticed that and some of that discussion must have been before my time as a home brewer.

Kai

 

[FlyGuy]

Do you all think that malt conditioning is REALLY worth the effort if you are not getting a stuck mash? But it doesn't sound complicated to me either.

I have a corona-style mill, and malt conditioning goes a long way to help reduce shredding the grain husks (which reduces the risk of tannin extraction and astringent off-flavours). I condition to improve the FLAVOUR of my beer, not because I am worried about a stuck mash.

 

[bad coffee]

I just listened to the podcast yesterday. I was amazed as well they didn't mention your method. I do agree they danced around your method quite oddly.

I've been spray-bottle conditioning since I listened to Kai's interview with James. I'll try the dump and mix method on my next batch and see how it does. My only concern is the evenness of the conditioning. It seems to me some of the grain would be wetter than the rest. We'll have to wait and see.

B

 

[mmb]

I just listened to the podcast yesterday. I was amazed as well they didn't mention your method. I do agree they danced around your method quite oddly.

I've been spray-bottle conditioning since I listened to Kai's interview with James. I'll try the dump and mix method on my next batch and see how it does. My only concern is the evenness of the conditioning. It seems to me some of the grain would be wetter than the rest. We'll have to wait and see.

B

They addressed the in-even wetting in the interview. Something like "Well, then it's going to be dry just like you didn't condition. *shrug*"

Bit of a let down interview, really.

 

[Scimmia]

I have a corona-style mill, and malt conditioning goes a long way to help reduce shredding the grain husks (which reduces the risk of tannin extraction and astringent off-flavours). I condition to improve the FLAVOUR of my beer, not because I am worried about a stuck mash.

I agree completely, conditioning is even more important with a corona mill than a roller mill.

I also quit using the spray bottle. Dump it in, mix well, let sit for a while, and mix again before crushing. The water will distribute on the gains pretty well on it's own as long as it's mixed pretty well.

 

[OLDBREW]

The guys on the AHA forum brought to my attention that the technique of malt conditioning has been brought up by many home brewers before and that it was also mentioned in a recent Zymurgy article. I guess I never noticed that and some of that discussion must have been before my time as a home brewer.

Kai

Yes.. many threads through the years have discussed malt conditioning techniques.
This was way before you started in the home brewing scene Kai. The problem wih some older sites is that they delete the older archives.

 

[Denny]

Do you all think that malt conditioning is REALLY worth the effort if you are not getting a stuck mash? But it doesn't sound complicated to me either.

No, I don't. I get great efficiency and no stuck mashes. At this point, I don't see what I have to gain by doing it. And that's not to diss the technique. It's obviously made a difference for some people and is a valid method. But based on the problems I've heard that it solves, I don't need it.

 

[Beerrific]

When I saw this topic listed on Basic Brewing, I thought for sure that Kai was going to be the guest. I guess I was wrong....

No, I don't. I get great efficiency and no stuck mashes. At this point, I don't see what I have to gain by doing it. And that's not to diss the technique. It's obviously made a difference for some people and is a valid method. But based on the problems I've heard that it solves, I don't need it.

But one thing to add is that it is fun to do. Such a relatively simple change produces visible results, an homage to the way things used to be done.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I think it may depend on your methods/system how much it helps. RIMS/HERMS folks seem to like it because they get way less of a compacted grain bed when circulating. I'm not sure how much benefit batch spargers get. I fly sparge and it helps lautering. I'm just speculating but it may be that I get more sugars for a given amount of tannins (call it the sugar:tannin ratio) but it's not like I've tested it or anything. And it's not like tannins are outta control when not conditioning anyway.

 

[babalu87]

I think it may depend on your methods/system how much it helps. RIMS/HERMS folks seem to like it because they get way less of a compacted grain bed when circulating. I'm not sure how much benefit batch spargers get. I fly sparge and it helps lautering. I'm just speculating but it may be that I get more sugars for a given amount of tannins (call it the sugar:tannin ratio) but it's not like I've tested it or anything. And it's not like tannins are outta control when not conditioning anyway.

I no longer need rice hulls for wheat beers, reason enough for me (batch sparger)

Better, more consistant run-offs as well.

Spray and stir is really the only method a homebrewer can use easily.
Steaming isnt going to be consistant enough throughout all the grains.

 

[Kaiser]

Steaming isnt going to be consistant enough throughout all the grains.

You also seem to need a false bottom or large grain bag for this. I have neither. Steaming is also something I have to watch. I cannot wander off and 20 min later go "****, i forgot the grain in the steamer". That happens to me quite often with the collection of R/O water and I have learned to ALWAYS put the pot into a large tub even if I think that I will remember checking in 5 min.

For the sraying technique I'm tinking of building a malt mill stand where I can also palace a bucket on rollers such that it is slanted. The motor can then turn the bucket just like a cement mixer. I simply have to spray the necessary amount of conditioning water into it and the turning action will mix it.

But that is in the future when I have time to build this.

Kai

 

[Saccharomyces]

I asked Chris about this when I saw him on Saturday. He says he hasn't tried the spray bottle method. He says his method gives really even results because the steam permeates the bag really well, and that it is difficult to overdo it, which is why he likes his method.

Oh, and he said "say hi to Kai for me". He is a fan of your podcasts.

 

[The Pol]

When I wrote my article for BF... I credited Kai... thanks for all the helpful tips Kai!!

 

[Bobby_M]

You also seem to need a false bottom or large grain bag for this. I have neither. Steaming is also something I have to watch. I cannot wander off and 20 min later go "****, i forgot the grain in the steamer". That happens to me quite often with the collection of R/O water and I have learned to ALWAYS put the pot into a large tub even if I think that I will remember checking in 5 min.

For the sraying technique I'm tinking of building a malt mill stand where I can also palace a bucket on rollers such that it is slanted. The motor can then turn the bucket just like a cement mixer. I simply have to spray the necessary amount of conditioning water into it and the turning action will mix it.

But that is in the future when I have time to build this.

Kai

Kai, it's a bit off topic, but you ought to grab yourself a cheap Kent float valve to collect your RO and stop it from flowing when the bucket is full.

 

[BuzzCraft]

I have a corona-style mill, and malt conditioning goes a long way to help reduce shredding the grain husks (which reduces the risk of tannin extraction and astringent off-flavours). I condition to improve the FLAVOUR of my beer, not because I am worried about a stuck mash.

Flyguy or others that employ this with a Corona mill....have you perceived a difference in your beers since you started conditioning?

I also use a Corona style and a recent pale ale, which I had brewed a few times before with no problems, tasted somewhat astringent. Not sure the cause, and I realize there are several possibilities, but I wondered about tannins related to husk shredding. (To be honest, the hulls in my crush look pretty similar to those I see in photos from roller mills).

Anyway, curious if people perceive a flavor/taste difference under these circumstances.

 

[Homercidal]

I'm curious to try this, but I have not had a problem with my batch sparging. I use a drilled copper manifold and have not had a stuck sparge yet, even though I'd done 50% wheat beers. I am curious if it will affect the flavor of my beer. My crusher doesn't seem to tear the husk too much. I might have to try it and see the difference.

I too was curious when I read the article, thinking that it seemed a lot easier when I read up on it before.

 

[FlyGuy]

Flyguy or others that employ this with a Corona mill....have you perceived a difference in your beers since you started conditioning?

I also use a Corona style and a recent pale ale, which I had brewed a few times before with no problems, tasted somewhat astringent. Not sure the cause, and I realize there are several possibilities, but I wondered about tannins related to husk shredding. (To be honest, the hulls in my crush look pretty similar to those I see in photos from roller mills).

Anyway, curious if people perceive a flavor/taste difference under these circumstances.

I haven't been brewing much lately, so I haven't tried it enough to be sure.

However, about a year ago I started backing off my crush and reducing my efficiency because I perceived a slight astringence in my beer. To get 85% efficiency with the Corona, I was milling pretty fine and getting a lot of shredded husks. After malt conditioning, I found I could mill fine again yet have the same degree of husk 'integrity' as a 75% efficiency crush. So best of both worlds.

And I haven't noticed any sign of the off-flavours returning with the finer crush + malt conditioning. For the few extra minutes it takes, well worth the effort, especially if you have a Corona-style mill.

 

[Denny]

However, about a year ago I started backing off my crush and reducing my efficiency because I perceived a slight astringence in my beer.

What kind of pH were you seeing? I'd tend to think that was more of an issue.

 

[FlyGuy]

What kind of pH were you seeing? I'd tend to think that was more of an issue.

I don't think that was it. I tried it with and without Five Star 5.2 ph stabilizer, and it made no difference.

A fine crush from my Porkert (i.e Corona-style) mill really shreds the husks. Malt conditioning helps keep the husks intact without me changing my crush, and my beer tastes better for it. Not sure how this could be a pH issue and unrelated to shredded husks???

 

[sonetlumiere85]

There is an article on malt conditioning in the new issue of Zymurgy. Didn't take the time to read it just yet, but it seems to get into a lot of the science behind the practice.

 

[kappclark]

I listen every week, and that one just seemed like more work ! I will start grinding grain soon- is that the time I should worry about this ?

I wonder why I have never heard of this ...

A spray bottle seems easiest

 

[bendavanza]

For me it makes a difference in crush, and lautering, and since I am starting to do RIMS with my next batch, that will be good. It takes very little time, I start this when I am heating the strike water. Doughing in seems easier, too.
fluffy husks are happy husks

 

[Denny]

I don't think that was it. I tried it with and without Five Star 5.2 ph stabilizer, and it made no difference.

But that assumes 5.2 always works....I haven't found that to be the case.

 

[ejunk]

off the thread of conversation here, but I'm looking forward to introducing malt conditioning into my brew process. thanks for the methods write-up, kaiser!

yrs-
Evan!

 

[Cape Brewing]

+10000 on the rollers getting gummed up.

My malt mill started jumping around like crazy, finally seized, and the force of the drill I had conencted to it picked up the whole thing, spun it in the air and split the hardboard base the mill was orginally mounted on into two pieces.

So... just a little tip for folks.... if your mill starts really struggling to crush smoothly, STOP the mill... clean the rollers and then proceed.

i am pretty sure I just didn't let the grain sit long enough as once I cleaned the mill, the grain had sat a bit longer and it all flew right through no problem.

 

[FlyGuy]

But that assumes 5.2 always works....I haven't found that to be the case.

That's probably true, Denny -- but if I trust my pH meter, it says I haven't had an issue yet.

Regardless, I am still unsure how you think malt conditioning is related to a pH change? When I crushed fine without conditioning, I got shredded husks and some slight off-flavours (tannic, astringent). When I conditioned (with the same crush), they disappeared. I think it has more to do with shredded husks having more surface area and greater propensity to extract tannins.

 

[malkore]

remember to compare it to our own wiki page on malt conditioning: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Malt_Conditioning

 

[flananuts]

I Saw Bobby on the thread earlier and have to promote his new videos on Youtube on Malt conditioning. The video really shows the value of the spray technique and how fluffier the crush looks, not to mention the nearly intact hulls. I will certainly be doing this on Sunday when I brew.

Here's the link to his page and the video mentioned.
http://www.youtube.com/bobbyfromnj#p/u/0/KUyifHMy9Fs

 

[babalu87]

+10000 on the rollers getting gummed up.

My malt mill started jumping around like crazy, finally seized, and the force of the drill I had conencted to it picked up the whole thing, spun it in the air and split the hardboard base the mill was orginally mounted on into two pieces.

So... just a little tip for folks.... if your mill starts really struggling to crush smoothly, STOP the mill... clean the rollers and then proceed.

i am pretty sure I just didn't let the grain sit long enough as once I cleaned the mill, the grain had sat a bit longer and it all flew right through no problem.

I have to ask why the companies that make grain mills put them on that ghetto-fabulous hardboard?

You'll be mint once you get that bolted to a piece of good plywood with fender washers AND tighten that gap until yer scared :rockin:
I'd tighten the other bolts/screws and make sure its square too.

Did I hear correctly that this months Zymurgy has an article on grain conditioning as well?

Hopefully they explored the easy spray and stir method that Kai brought to light.

 

[Bobby_M]

The spray and stir method works perfectly for me so far and I didn't notice my mill getting gummed up at all. You're not putting oatmeal through it.