Cant crack 55% efficiency

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theCougfan97

theCougfan97

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I need help! I consistently get 55% efficiency out of my all-grain batches.

I am using a 10 gallon Gatorade cooler for a mash tun. Here is my current process:

0. Using a 1.20 qt/lb (water/grain)
1. Add 175 degree water to get mash to 152 degrees
2. Stir really well
3. Check temp - close to 150-152
4. Wait 30 min.
5. Stir
6. wait 30 min
7. stir
8. Recirculate wort (bottom to top) using a pump for 15 min.
9. Drain
10. Add 190 degree water to reach a sparge temp over 170
11. Stir
12. Rest 30 min
13. recirculate for 15 min
14. Drain

I have read about mashing out, protein rests, extended mash times, but they all claim to only provide minimal efficiency improvements. There has to be something obvious I am missing that accounts for such a large shortfall.

Any thoughts???

Thanks in advance!:rockin:


UPDATE:
I met a new friend today. He is a fellow brewer that lives in my neighborhood and frequents similar stores. He mills his own grain.
He didnt like LHBS B's employees so he always got his grain from LHBS C. He was having efficiency problems, so he went to LHBS B for grains despite the bad employees. What do you know his efficiency improved. After several more successful brews he tested his new theory by buying grains from LHBS C, for old time sake. Suprise suprise his efficiency went back down.

I buy all my grains from the LHBS C, because their employees are so friendly...
I wont know until I brew again next week but I think we may have found the culprit.
 
We haven't done much efficiency measuring, so not sure I can help a lot, but I couldn't not comment based on your coug name and wazzu comment. I'm a 99 grad and also started drinking in college. Would be crazy if we knew each other. send me a pm.

as for efficiency, we never stir our mash tun, other than maybe as we are adding the water. Anyone know if that is part of it?
 
I would look at your crush. Do you mill your own grains? If so tighten your gap. If not have the LHBS run them through twice or look into investing in a mill. Crush is probably one of the biggest factors in efficiency.

Also, it seems like you're doing a lot of unnecessary steps in your process. I would cut out:

8. Recirculating for 15 minutes doesn't seem necessary. I usually just vourlaf a couple pints and then drain.

12. There's no need to rest a sparge. All your doing is rinsing the extra sugar off the grain, and you don't need to worry about the grain bed when you batch sparge. Just make sure you mix all the grain up really well with the sparge water, then vourlaf and drain.

13. Same as number 8.
 
peterj said:
8. Recirculating for 15 minutes doesn't seem necessary. I usually just vourlaf a couple pints and then drain.
Click to expand...

As someone who has started recirculating using a pump after my mash ill tell you the difference between manually vorlaufing and recirculating makes a HUGE difference in the clarity of the wort going into my beer.

It really makes no difference with efficiency and 15 minutes is a bit excessive, maybe 5 and the grain bed is set solid and the wort coming out is crystal clear.
 
i mash most beers at 1.25 or 1.33 qt/# (whatever gets me to an even number in gallons). i stir to combine and make sure there's no clumps. once it's looking smooth and my temp is still good i put the lid on the igloo and rest it. i won't check it again until it's time to sparge or step up the mash temp. i also vorlauf by pulling about a quart and adding it back on top.

to sparge i first drain my first run. pour in my hot sparge water and stir again. don't have to be so thorough since the grains are already soaked. let that settle out and drain it again. if i'm short i add more hot water to the mash tun and sparge again basically. usually less than a gallon though.

as an experiment try buying some distilled water. a 6 gallon case costs me $5. brew a batch with that (topping up with tap will be fine) and add about .5# of acid malt to your grist. see if that has a dramatic change on your efficiency.

I use this method with an igloo from LHBS which drains in the center (no fancy manifold) with a batch sparge and i can get 74% efficiency on a 17# grist. no pumps, no wizardry. i don't even use acid malt. just distilled and basic addition of gypsum and cacl.
 
Have you used iodine to double check the starch conversion. When you do your sparge how do you add the sparge water? It makes a big difference. When you add water it should be a fine spray or slow trickle. It should take in the area of 45 minutes to sparge a typical 5 gallon recipe properly. As was said previously, the crush plays a major part as well, too fine and you'll get paste too course and conversion won't complete, this would be the easiest to check as well.
 
BlkWater_brewer said:
When you do your sparge how do you add the sparge water? It makes a big difference. When you add water it should be a fine spray or slow trickle. It should take in the area of 45 minutes to sparge a typical 5 gallon recipe properly.
Click to expand...

I think he's batch sparging so this wouldn't apply.
 
peterj said:
I think he's batch sparging so this wouldn't apply.
Click to expand...

You are correct, I am batch sparging. I just drain the hot water via gravity from my HLT. Should I slow that down at all?

I read about grain crush and decided to adjust the mill at my LHBS to one step more fine then their signage reccomends. I had no trouble with a stuck sparge and still got the same 55%.

As for water. I use a culligan filter on my hose to filter the water. Should I be PH testing that water to determine what changes need to happen? If so what are my options? I read Seattle water didnt need much if any help in this area, but its worth a try.

Thanks again all.:rockin:
 
Since you're having issues with your efficiency you may want to iodine test. If your ph is too high then your mash may be too high as well. Filtering won't fix this.

For the money you could also try the distilled water idea i mentioned.
 
theCougfan97 said:
As for water. I use a culligan filter on my hose to filter the water. Should I be PH testing that water to determine what changes need to happen? If so what are my options? I read Seattle water didnt need much if any help in this area, but its worth a try.

Thanks again all.:rockin:
Click to expand...


Distilled water and acid malt are a really good start. A little more technical would be adding lactic (or I think phosphoric) acid to adjust pH. Really not too difficult if you play with the bru'n water spreadsheet.
 
freisste said:
Distilled water and acid malt are a really good start. A little more technical would be adding lactic (or I think phosphoric) acid to adjust pH. Really not too difficult if you play with the bru'n water spreadsheet.
Click to expand...

How do I know how much acid malt should I use if I go the distilled water route?
 
theCougfan97 said:
How do I know how much acid malt should I use if I go the distilled water route?
Click to expand...


Short answer is bru'n water spreadsheet. Available free online if you do a search. It seems really complicated at first, but if you read the directions and ask a question or two, it will make sense.

Long answer is it depends on the other grains you use (as was mentioned, more dark grains tends to help). Also, if you happen to be adjusting your profile to mimic somewhere else in the world, you will make other small adjustments.
 
What type of thermometer are you using? I've seen a couple threads on here where the poster was using a crappy turkey frier dial thermometer. You could be missing your temps by 10-20* if you are using one of those.
 
freisste said:
Distilled water and acid malt are a really good start. A little more technical would be adding lactic (or I think phosphoric) acid to adjust pH. Really not too difficult if you play with the bru'n water spreadsheet.
Click to expand...

If you're going to use distilled water you will absolutely need to add some brewing salts to it. Gypsum and calcium chloride will probably suffice. You can't just use distilled water and acid malt. Personally I would just use lactic acid instead of acid malt. Acid malt can vary in it's actual acid content.

If you are going the water route though you need to do a little research on water chemistry and use a program that will give you ion concentrations and predicted mash pH. I use the Brewer's Friend calculator but many others use the Bru'n water spreadsheet. I think there is a pretty good explanation of water chemistry on the Bru'n water website as well. Just make sure to ignore any talk about RA. That's an outdated and not so helpful concept. Mash pH is all that matters. Or you could just go by this primer if you don't feel like getting that into it: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/.

Honestly though, I don't think this will help your efficiency all that much. Unless your water is super out of whack right now, your pH should be fairly ok. Not out of range enough to cause really bad efficiency. And if it was, you would probably have some off flavors in your finished beer.
 
peterj said:
If you're going to use distilled water you will absolutely need to add some brewing salts to it. Gypsum and calcium chloride will probably suffice. You can't just use distilled water and acid malt. Personally I would just use lactic acid instead of acid malt. Acid malt can vary in it's actual acid content.
Click to expand...


Unless you have incredibly alkaline water, I doubt it has anything to do with your water and is more likely related to your crush. I know from experience you do not NEED to add any brewing salts with distilled water. Modern malts will convert without salts. Don't mess with acidity if you don't have a pH meter.

...and mash efficiency of 55% isn't horrible because malt is cheap. I know people who have freaked out about a low mash efficiency that maybe cost them $2 extra per 5gal batch but when you talk to them about their propane burner you find they are only getting 2.5 batches out of a full propane tank. You energy efficiency is a much bigger concern as it will cost far more money and time than a few pounds of grain per batch.
 
Question OP: Can you please discribe your sparge process? long shot, but you dont mention sparge water, just that you drain the tun. 55% is about the efficiency I've seen of my first beer in a Parti Gyle brew... just sayin
 
Zgreens said:
Question OP: Can you please discribe your sparge process? long shot, but you dont mention sparge water, just that you drain the tun. 55% is about the efficiency I've seen of my first beer in a Parti Gyle brew... just sayin
Click to expand...

After draining my first runnings I add 190 degree sparge water to raise the temp of the grain above 170. I then recirculate (in place of a vourlaf) and drain.
 
theCougfan97 said:
Its all-grain, my recipe calls for a specific gravity measured before the boil, assuming a 70% mash efficiency. I get closer to 55%.
Click to expand...

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, are you using a refractometer or hydrometer for your pre-boil reading? If hydrometer, are you cooling your sample before reading the OG? Anything reading over 100oF is worthless, even with temp adjustment software, sample needs to be below 100oF and closer to 60 is best.

If you are not cooling your sample then you really have no idea what your efficiency is. Also, are you sure your volumes are correct, that will make a difference in your readings as well.
 
Why does your water need to be so hot to achieve dough- in and mash- out temps?
 
You may want to try to slow down your lautering. I got about 60-65% the first two batches I did with the valve either fully open or mostly open. The last batch i did I barely cracked the valve to drain, and it went up to about 77% with no other changes (crush, mashout etc...). It took a good 20-30 mins to drain the tun, but it worked like a charm.
 
duboman said:
Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, are you using a refractometer or hydrometer for your pre-boil reading? If hydrometer, are you cooling your sample before reading the OG? Anything reading over 100oF is worthless, even with temp adjustment software, sample needs to be below 100oF and closer to 60 is best.

If you are not cooling your sample then you really have no idea what your efficiency is. Also, are you sure your volumes are correct, that will make a difference in your readings as well.
Click to expand...

I use a temp adjusted refractometer. I am fairly certain my volumes are accurate as I measured and marked all my kettles and sight glasses.
 
cobrem said:
You may want to try to slow down your lautering. I got about 60-65% the first two batches I did with the valve either fully open or mostly open. The last batch i did I barely cracked the valve to drain, and it went up to about 77% with no other changes (crush, mashout etc...). It took a good 20-30 mins to drain the tun, but it worked like a charm.
Click to expand...

Yea I was taught to drain slowly. When I recirculate I open the valve just enough to get a steady trickle. Same with draining into my boil kettle.
 
glick said:
Why does your water need to be so hot to achieve dough- in and mash- out temps?
Click to expand...

I use an online calculator to determine the temp required to raise the mash temp to my target temp. From there I have been logging my temps and fine tuning the heat required to achieve my target temp.
 
Two thoughts. It really doesn't matter what the temperature of the sparge water is with batch sparging. You are just rinsing sugars out of the grain.

I also don't think that it matters how fast you drain. I start slow to set the grain bed and vorlauf then I open it wide.

Are you ending up with the proper OG. If so your efficiency calculations are off.

I am lead back to thermometer, crush or both.
 
kh54s10 said:
Two thoughts. It really doesn't matter what the temperature of the sparge water is with batch sparging. You are just rinsing sugars out of the grain.

I also don't think that it matters how fast you drain. I start slow to set the grain bed and vorlauf then I open it wide.

Are you ending up with the proper OG. If so your efficiency calculations are off.

I am lead back to thermometer, crush or both.
Click to expand...

No OG falls right in line with an overall efficiency of 55%. I assumed this was a temp issue originally and have tried 3 different types of thermometer and tested them all thoroughly. They all give similar numbers give or take a degree.
 
Are you preheating your mash tun? I always preheat my mash tun for about 10-15 minutes and have never had a strike water temp above 165. If you aren't preheating your mash tun it's very possible that your mash is much cooler than you think (best way to check is stirring up mash and taking temperature at mash out) which would slow conversion. Also at that high of a strike temp it's possible that you are denaturing quite a bit of amlyase enzymes right when you start your mash and slowing conversion.

First thing I'd look at is a finer crush like mentioned earlier in the thread, then preheating mash tun so you can use cooler water to begin with and don't have to worry about how much heat you lose to the mash tun.
 
As other stated, look at the grain crush. I was running from 72% to 81% with a couple of suppliers. I ordered crushed grains from a different (new to me) and all 4 brews were 60% +/- 5%. I'm sticking with Northern Brewery or Austin Home Supply from now on.
 
Are you hitting your mash temps?

How are you measuring efficiency? Are you calculating gravity going in to the kettle or into the fermenter?

Have you tried calibrating your thermometer (reads 212 at boiling, 32 at freezing)?

Can you post a picture of the crushed grain you're using?

What brand grain does your LHBS sell?
 
Let's get a few things straight before moving on. Adding sparge slowly or draining it out slowly are requirements of fly sparging and time wasters in batch sparging. If anyone empirically finds that slowing anything down during a batch sparge increases efficiency, it's because you're allowing for more starch conversion (meaning you weren't fully converted after your sacc rest). This can be attributed to being way off on your initial mash temps due to bad thermometers, a really coarse crush, or pH being way out of whack (less likely). One of the first troubleshooting steps is to test the gravity of the first wort (take a sample during vorlauf) and compare that against the theoretical gravity (100% conversion) of your mash. This will rule out a conversion issue vs. a lauter/sparge issue.

it hasn't been brought up, but how about a picture of the inside of your mash tun? How much dead space do you have?
 
gbx said:
Unless you have incredibly alkaline water, I doubt it has anything to do with your water and is more likely related to your crush. I know from experience you do not NEED to add any brewing salts with distilled water. Modern malts will convert without salts. Don't mess with acidity if you don't have a pH meter.
Click to expand...

I agree, I don't think water chemistry is the reason for your low efficiency numbers.

I guess I didn't explain why you NEED brewing salts with distilled water. I wasn't saying you needed them for conversion, you need them for taste reasons and to help with yeast health and flocculation.
 
theCougfan97 said:
Its all-grain, my recipe calls for a specific gravity measured before the boil, assuming a 70% mash efficiency. I get closer to 55%.
Click to expand...


Are you using a brew program to calculate your efficiency? So, you're measuring pre-boil gravity, then OG? If you are measuring pre-boil gravity, are you adjusting the gravity for the temp? Most hydrometers are calibrated for 60 degrees fahrenheit, so you'd need to adjust based on the temp of the wort you are using to measure. Beersmith has a tool that I use to adjust so I don't have to worry about cooling the wort before I measure.


Sent from my iPad using Home Brew
 
I am still with:

1) bad crush on the grains
2) loss in leaving too much wort in the system (holding sugars)
3) mistakes in calculations or measurements
4) temperature problems

55% seems so low that it would be difficult to do without making serious mistakes like forgetting 1/4 of your grain bill or ending up with 25 - 50 % too much wort.
 

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