Can you Brew It recipe for Stone Arrogant Bastard

[CastleBlack]

Again, I know what people mean by conditioning. I understand that bigger beers change (usually improve) with time. However, there's normally a reason they improve. What flavor aspect do you expect to change that will make the beer taste closer to AB?

Rounder, smoother, more uniform taste. The hops and malt will blend together better. It wont be hop or malt forward, simply a good attempt at A.B. and very reminiscent thereof. I dry hopped this one quite a bit and hope that by the time the brew is conditioned (I am estimating about an 8 week peak) the hops will still be pleasantly present.

 

[afr0byte]

Rounder, smoother, more uniform taste. The hops and malt will blend together better. It wont be hop or malt forward, simply a good attempt at A.B. and very reminiscent thereof. I dry hopped this one quite a bit and hope that by the time the brew is conditioned (I am estimating about an 8 week peak) the hops will still be pleasantly present.

I understand the smoother and tastes blending (tanins/etc falling out of solution will do that). The last time I had AB, however, it was hop forward (at least for my pallet). Are you still getting tannins from the dry hopping? It seems like some kind of fining could fix/age that faster (obviously it's too late if it's in the bottle).

 

[CastleBlack]

I understand the smoother and tastes blending (tanins/etc falling out of solution will do that). The last time I had AB, however, it was hop forward (at least for my pallet). Are you still getting tannins from the dry hopping? It seems like some kind of fining could fix/age that faster (obviously it's too late if it's in the bottle).

Yeah I dont mind waiting this one out. I will be brewing in between the waiting time so I kinda have a rotation thing going on. I box my brew and mark the dates I want to have a tasting. Usually its 2 week, 4 week and 6 week. But it also depends on the brew. For my most recent Founders Breakfast Stout Clone, I am aging it for 10 months. Yes, thats 300 days.- It's an imperial with 8.3 - 8.6 ABV. Its very coffee forward now but wont be by its prime time.

 

[Hammy71]

Could the freshness have anything to do with it you think?

This is a relatively big brew, at 7.2 - 7.5 ABV it takes some time to condition. Plus the store bought AB will never be as fresh as homebrew. Could our brews, even with C-150 just be too green?

My first bastard clone was bottled on 1/9/12 and I have been having a bottle a week to taste test it. I can tell you it is still green even for a brew with so much hoppyness.

Nah, Brewed back in November with 4 weeks in the primary and 4 weeks in the keg before another couple in the keezer. It's not that big of a beer and the 150 version is still on tap. In fact I'm thinking this beer needs to be drank pretty young since it starts to loose the hop flavor very quickly, sorta like an IPA.

 

[afr0byte]

Yeah I dont mind waiting this one out. I will be brewing in between the waiting time so I kinda have a rotation thing going on. I box my brew and mark the dates I want to have a tasting. Usually its 2 week, 4 week and 6 week. But it also depends on the brew. For my most recent Founders Breakfast Stout Clone, I am aging it for 10 months. Yes, thats 300 days.- It's an imperial with 8.3 - 8.6 ABV. Its very coffee forward now but wont be by its prime time.

Personally I'd drink that as soon as possible. Coffee flavor will fade quite quickly in my experience. Then you're left with stale coffee flavor. Plus, 8.3% beers don't typically need 10 months of aging (I had a 9.7% beer (dark strong) that tasted great after 4 months.).

 

[Apendecto]

Just to throw my hat into the ring...

I didn't understand why I sometimes love Arrogant Bastard and sometimes it just wouldn't do the trick. For the longest time I couldn't figure it out and then I realized the bombers from the places that didn't sell a lot tasted better and I figured out it was because I liked AB with a little more age on it.

Long story short, I think this is a tough brew to clone because I think it evolves a lot as it ages. I recently went to the Stone brewery and almost everything was insanely intense. Not fresh, in my opinion, but almost harsh. Call me crazy. I love most of Stone's brews back home. Must be age. AB is intense from their tap. Fresh dated ones at home, well, I can't describe too well since I drink the aged stuff. And older bottles seem more rounded out and less rough.

Maybe we are all cloning different AB's.

 

[afr0byte]

Just to throw my hat into the ring...

I didn't understand why I sometimes love Arrogant Bastard and sometimes it just wouldn't do the trick. For the longest time I couldn't figure it out and then I realized the bombers from the places that didn't sell a lot tasted better and I figured out it was because I liked AB with a little more age on it.

Long story short, I think this is a tough brew to clone because I think it evolves a lot as it ages. I recently went to the Stone brewery and almost everything was insanely intense. Not fresh, in my opinion, but almost harsh. Call me crazy. I love most of Stone's brews back home. Must be age. AB is intense from their tap. Fresh dated ones at home, well, I can't describe too well since I drink the aged stuff. And older bottles seem more rounded out and less rough.

Maybe we are all cloning different AB's.

That sounds like tanins from dry hopping/hops in general.

 

[CastleBlack]

Might be right guys, can say till I taste it, then I ll know for sure.

For the imperial stout, give it time.- Its drinkable right out the primary but I wouldn't recommend it. I am ageing it so I ll have some left for next fall/winter. I used to think dark brews were fine had fresh, was wrong.

As for IPAs surely have them fresh, hop taste does fade quite rapidly. Dont know how to get that great A.B taste yet but hopefully from the great input from this thread and a lot of experimentation we ll get to the bottom of it!

Happy brewing everybody.

 

[jtejedor]

Its all very much preference I love drinking my Russian Imperial Stouts young. Time can definitely do some good things to beer but then again some people say to let an IIPA age for a while before drinking.

 

[CastleBlack]

Its all very much preference I love drinking my Russian Imperial Stouts young. Time can definitely do some good things to beer but then again some people say to let an IIPA age for a while before drinking.

Yup. I think you said it best.

 

[Stubbeez]

So I brewed my extract version in September (I posted it in this thread around Aug/Sept), and I couldnt understand why there was no hop presence. That is when I discovered the meaning of boil gravity (I could only boil 3 gallons at that time). I had always heard of it, but never really paid attention or learned what it was and the effects it could have on hop utilization.
I really didnt care for the beer I ended up making, though other people said they really liked it. I tried a Double Bastard for the first time and it actually reminded me of the beer I made - but I did like the Double Bastard. Mine was just really malty, high in alcohol, and not much hop flavor.
When I brew it again, I will do a full boil. The only thing missing was the hop flavor and aroma. I was disappointed, to say the least. That was a valuable lesson to learn though. I bought Designing Great Beers and that is when I found out about the BG.

 

[CastleBlack]

So I brewed my extract version in September (I posted it in this thread around Aug/Sept), and I couldnt understand why there was no hop presence. That is when I discovered the meaning of boil gravity (I could only boil 3 gallons at that time). I had always heard of it, but never really paid attention or learned what it was and the effects it could have on hop utilization.
I really didnt care for the beer I ended up making, though other people said they really liked it. I tried a Double Bastard for the first time and it actually reminded me of the beer I made - but I did like the Double Bastard. Mine was just really malty, high in alcohol, and not much hop flavor.
When I brew it again, I will do a full boil. The only thing missing was the hop flavor and aroma. I was disappointed, to say the least. That was a valuable lesson to learn though. I bought Designing Great Beers and that is when I found out about the BG.

Intersting that you say that Stub, mine was malty, hoppy but not bitter enough. So my V.2 of this recipe will include the C-150 (maybe some Special B in there too) and one more 60 min hop addition. How about yours, was it bitter enough like an A.B or hop aroma and flavor?

 

[Ply318ci]

Got a question on this if I am an ounce short of hops for the zero minute addition should I just spread the additions out (90-45-0)to get a zero minute addition or just not do the zero minute addition or use some kent holdings I got left over. since I have everything I need to brew (except the last ounce of chinook hops) and since the closest LBS is a two hour round trip and I don't want to pay shipping on a ounce of hops I am curious about this thanks.

 

[barrooze]

Got a question on this if I am an ounce short of hops for the zero minute addition should I just spread the additions out (90-45-0)to get a zero minute addition or just not do the zero minute addition or use some kent holdings I got left over. since I have everything I need to brew (except the last ounce of chinook hops) and since the closest LBS is a two hour round trip and I don't want to pay shipping on a ounce of hops I am curious about this thanks.

If you have some other hops you could use to get the same IBU at the 90 minute addition, I'd use those there and use the Chinook at the 0 minute addition. The flavors/aromas taken from the 90 minute addition of Chinook are definitely less pronounced than the zero minute. What you're predominantly getting with a 90 minute addition is just bitterness, so if you can use a different hop to get you that same amount of bitterness, do that.

 

[Ply318ci]

Great that helps a ton thanks will do.

 

[barrooze]

Out of curiosity, what other hops do you have on hand that you'd be able to use at the 90 minutes addition?

 

[Ply318ci]

Computer glitch repost from previous.

 

[Ply318ci]

I would use target hops I have left over from a previous brew. Not quite as bitter lower acid by 2% or so.

 

[barrooze]

Sounds good! Just up the amount of Target to match the IBU contribution of the higher AA% chinook.

 

[Ply318ci]

Thanks.

 

[Stubbeez]

Intersting that you say that Stub, mine was malty, hoppy but not bitter enough. So my V.2 of this recipe will include the C-150 (maybe some Special B in there too) and one more 60 min hop addition. How about yours, was it bitter enough like an A.B or hop aroma and flavor?

I have to say mine was not very bitter either. I didnt even get much hop aroma, if any. When I brew it again, I am going to add the remaining malt extract at knockout so that my boil gravity is right around 1.050. I will pull my hop bag during cooling, and then I might even consider dry hopping to compensate for that late hop addition in the future if it needs more. I think the flavors were on, and I used the Special B at 10%, 90% Extra Light DME. Definitely a "good mistake" and I learned a lot from that batch!

 

[CastleBlack]

You gotta love the Special B but I think there is something darker in this brew, which is why I am aiming towards C-150. I must admit I havent tried it yet though so cant say for sure. I am planning on doing so though between brews.

As for the hops, yup, more Chinook needed for bittering in my case, dry hopping was probably adequate. I think my A.B clone is still green will give it a total 6-8 weeks in the bottle.

Happy brewing!

 

[EricCSU]

You gotta love the Special B but I think there is something darker in this brew, which is why I am aiming towards C-150. I must admit I havent tried it yet though so cant say for sure. I am planning on doing so though between brews.

As for the hops, yup, more Chinook needed for bittering in my case, dry hopping was probably adequate. I think my A.B clone is still green will give it a total 6-8 weeks in the bottle.

Happy brewing!

Special B is 145-155lov. So I don't understand what you mean by "something darker".

Eric

 

[afr0byte]

Special B is 145-155lov. So I don't understand what you mean by "something darker".

Eric

All of the Special B's I've purchased have been 120 lov. I believe Dingemans is 150lov, though. So, perhaps Stone uses Dingemans.

 

[CastleBlack]

Special B is 145-155lov. So I don't understand what you mean by "something darker".

Eric

You are probably right Eric, but multiple sources have multiple numbers. To give you a recent example, if you go to midwest supplies they state it as a "94 to 133" L malt, if you go to northern brewer they state it as a 147 L malt, on the other hand if you go to rebel brewer they state it as 148 L etc... I have also read it be stated as a 115 L in the midwest catalog. Quite hte deviation.

Last, from what Tasty has said before, he found Special B good but not adequate. He mentions how C-150 may well have a darker and deeper note required to resemble the A.B.

But it is all about trial and error. I will be giving the C-150, single hop, single malt little bastard a try. I ll keep you guys posted.

As always happy brewing!

 

[shmEk]

They have stacks of sacks of C-150 in the brewery. Special B at Morebeer.com shows 150L range, and AustinHomebrewSupply sells C-150 straight out.

 

[CastleBlack]

They have stacks of sacks of C-150 in the brewery. Special B at Morebeer.com shows 150L range, and AustinHomebrewSupply sells C-150 straight out.

I think you are spot on with the C-150. Maybe sth like 10-12% in the mash.

Only one way to find out.

Happy brewing everyone.

 

[heliumbro]

Finally had the opportunity to compare my first attempt with a bomber of the real thing after a beer run to the states. All of that hop character and bitterness has faded in my beer, leaving me with a malty, relatively mild in bitterness beer that was a darker shade of red than the SAB. However, the flavor of the real AB reminded me of a bottle of my clone shortly after it carbed up. I like this recipe and I am going to keep playing with it. Even if it wasn't a complete success it still makes a great beer.

 

[Trail]

Kind of tempted to do this, though my brew pipeline is spoken for at least three batches ahead at this point. (I need more damn buckets.) It feels a little heretical, though, because Arrogant Bastard is in my top five, and one of the only beers about which I would change NOTHING if given the chance.

At least with my BIPA my plan was "Something LIKE St. Austell Proper Black, but better."

The stakes feel higher when the target's as specific as a Bastard!

 

[CastleBlack]

Kind of tempted to do this, though my brew pipeline is spoken for at least three batches ahead at this point. (I need more damn buckets.) It feels a little heretical, though, because Arrogant Bastard is in my top five, and one of the only beers about which I would change NOTHING if given the chance.

At least with my BIPA my plan was "Something LIKE St. Austell Proper Black, but better."

The stakes feel higher when the target's as specific as a Bastard!

I know how that is. Been there a few times before.

Good luck with your brewing!

 

[Trail]

I know how that is. Been there a few times before.

Good luck with your brewing!

Thanks, you too. One potential plus to doing an AB clone is that so few of my friends like it, and therefore I'd have to share less!

 

[CastleBlack]

Thanks, you too. One potential plus to doing an AB clone is that so few of my friends like it, and therefore I'd have to share less!

About the sharing, I know exactly what you mean.

I just cant hide it when I am about to brew a beer and unfortunately when its ready a lot of it goes out the door.

Happy brewing!

 

[Dog House Brew]

About the sharing, I know exactly what you mean.

I just cant hide it when I am about to brew a beer and unfortunately when its ready a lot of it goes out the door.

Happy brewing!

Like when they come in and say, "Hey you got any of that free homebrew."

Hey Castle haven't you brewed a few of the different versions of this? If so what is your favorite recipe? Everytime I buy a Bastard I'm surprised how different it is each time.

 

[Donkeybalboa]

I have to say mine was not very bitter either. I didnt even get much hop aroma, if any. When I brew it again, I am going to add the remaining malt extract at knockout so that my boil gravity is right around 1.050. I will pull my hop bag during cooling, and then I might even consider dry hopping to compensate for that late hop addition in the future if it needs more. I think the flavors were on, and I used the Special B at 10%, 90% Extra Light DME. Definitely a "good mistake" and I learned a lot from that batch!

How much Chinook are you guys using at each hop addition? I was thinking 2 oz at 60, 1 oz at 30, 15, and flameout...then dryhopping...is this overkill? I see many recipes only doing .5 oz at the addition times.

 

[Trail]

Everytime I buy a Bastard I'm surprised how different it is each time.

I've sort of noticed what you're talking about, but I attributed it to the whole "lupulin shift" thing. Hell, my Sam Adams started tasting different around the same time too, and not in a good way. :cross:

 

[CastleBlack]

Like when they come in and say, "Hey you got any of that free homebrew."

Hey Castle haven't you brewed a few of the different versions of this? If so what is your favorite recipe? Everytime I buy a Bastard I'm surprised how different it is each time.

I am at a brew pause right now, haven't brewed since 2/22/12 when I made Ruination IPA. Thing is, my briess 50 pounder is running low and I gotta go get another one so i can do the "3 little bastards" project (Arrogant Bastard versions w/ C-150, or Extra Dark Crystal or Special B) That one will be fun to sorta make three brews in one go. Single specialty malt and single hopped. Best A.B I have had is from tap. Keg just tastes so much better to me. Bottle can be fine too, but still very different. The one I made last time lacked hoppyness/bitterness so in this version I am adding one whole addition of hops. (90 min, 60 min, 30 min, 15 min and F/O). This beer just cant get too bitter IMO and you just gotta love Chinook!

Happy brewing to ya.

 

[Hammy71]

Just tapped my latest version.

6Gallon batch.

90% 2-row
10 Special B

1.2oz Chinook @ 85,45,15,0 minutes.

Upped the OG to 1.072 and used WLP002 to get the beer down to 1.018 (which is where AB really is.)

Verdict:

Bitterness fom the hops. I'm happy with that.

Color....it's close, maybe a little too red for my eyes.

Taste, well it's ok but not arrogant bastard. Just like the 150C version I did, I think the 10% Special B is too much. The flavor from the malt isn't right. What I feel is missing is some residual bitterness that isn't from the hops. I like the suggestion that was made a page or two ago. Next round will be 2-row, maybe 5% 150C, and a small amount of roasted barley. This should add that bitterness I'm looking for plus the color that I want without dealing with the malty aftertaste that too much 150 or Special B delivers.

At least they are tasty failures!! :rockin:

 

[jtejedor]

Just tapped my latest version.

6Gallon batch.

90% 2-row
10 Special B

1.2oz Chinook @ 85,45,15,0 minutes.

Upped the OG to 1.072 and used WLP002 to get the beer down to 1.018 (which is where AB really is.)

Verdict:

Bitterness fom the hops. I'm happy with that.

Color....it's close, maybe a little too red for my eyes.

Taste, well it's ok but not arrogant bastard. Just like the 150C version I did, I think the 10% Special B is too much. The flavor from the malt isn't right. What I feel is missing is some residual bitterness that isn't from the hops. I like the suggestion that was made a page or two ago. Next round will be 2-row, maybe 5% 150C, and a small amount of roasted barley. This should add that bitterness I'm looking for plus the color that I want without dealing with the malty aftertaste that too much 150 or Special B delivers.

At least they are tasty failures!! :rockin:

Hopefully I get to this soon but I think your on the right track. My last try was a combo of 150 and special B and even at 10% of the grist I think the color was a little lighter then regular AB. I thought the taste was pretty close though. Can't wait to try it again and add some oak. Oaked AB is delish.

 

[CastleBlack]

Just tapped my latest version.

6Gallon batch.

90% 2-row
10 Special B

1.2oz Chinook @ 85,45,15,0 minutes.

Upped the OG to 1.072 and used WLP002 to get the beer down to 1.018 (which is where AB really is.)

Verdict:

Bitterness fom the hops. I'm happy with that.

Color....it's close, maybe a little too red for my eyes.

Taste, well it's ok but not arrogant bastard. Just like the 150C version I did, I think the 10% Special B is too much. The flavor from the malt isn't right. What I feel is missing is some residual bitterness that isn't from the hops. I like the suggestion that was made a page or two ago. Next round will be 2-row, maybe 5% 150C, and a small amount of roasted barley. This should add that bitterness I'm looking for plus the color that I want without dealing with the malty aftertaste that too much 150 or Special B delivers.

At least they are tasty failures!! :rockin:

I am very curious to see the results on this one. Roasted barely sounds like it might do the trick. Good luck with your brew and Happy brewing!

 

[afr0byte]

Just tapped my latest version.

6Gallon batch.

90% 2-row
10 Special B

1.2oz Chinook @ 85,45,15,0 minutes.

Upped the OG to 1.072 and used WLP002 to get the beer down to 1.018 (which is where AB really is.)

Verdict:

Bitterness fom the hops. I'm happy with that.

Color....it's close, maybe a little too red for my eyes.

Taste, well it's ok but not arrogant bastard. Just like the 150C version I did, I think the 10% Special B is too much. The flavor from the malt isn't right. What I feel is missing is some residual bitterness that isn't from the hops. I like the suggestion that was made a page or two ago. Next round will be 2-row, maybe 5% 150C, and a small amount of roasted barley. This should add that bitterness I'm looking for plus the color that I want without dealing with the malty aftertaste that too much 150 or Special B delivers.

At least they are tasty failures!!

What's your mash pH like? What's your water like? Water could be the difference.