Calculating OG to get right FG

[Austin Willoughby]

Hey guys new to the forums and am trying to perfect a cider right now. So basically this is my first 5 gallon batch of cider I've done about 3 1 gallon batches with lal 118 and it clearly wasn't what I was going for.

So what I used was standard Walmart apple juice no preserves, regular sugar, S04 yeast and nutrient

Basically what I want to know is I bumped my OG up to 1.070 so that my FG will hit around 1.010 to 1.015. I used the ABV Calculation ABV = (OG - FG) * 131.25 assuming I'm understanding correctly the S04 yeast can yield 10% ABV at 100% attenuation and since it attenuates at 75-80% which is 7.5- 8% ABV I plug in these numbers 1.070(OG)-1.010(FG) x 131.25 = 7.875% give or take 0.5%

So assuming this yeast starts to die around 8% should it stop fermenting at my target FG or can it continue below 1.10?

Now of course this is assuming I get good fermentation that will attenuate its full 75-80% now is this the correct way to get the desired sweetness? I don't want to back sweeten. So basically I'm trying to allow the yeast to die at my desired FG? Thanks in advance!

 

[dmtaylor]

I don't like S-04 in cider, I don't use that one anymore, but I'll bet it finishes below 1.000 unless you kill the yeast early. If you don't feed your cider to any dogs, you can certainly always backsweeten to your desired FG using xylitol (lethal to dogs) which is not fermentable and tastes damn near exactly the same as real sugar. I did that with my last cider and love the result.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

I don't like S-04 in cider, I don't use that one anymore, but I'll bet it finishes below 1.000 unless you kill the yeast early. If you don't feed your cider to any dogs, you can certainly always backsweeten to your desired FG using xylitol (lethal to dogs) which is not fermentable and tastes damn near exactly the same as real sugar. I did that with my last cider and love the result.

I heard great things about S04 so thought I would try it and so far it taste really well. So if it goes to 1.000 that means the alcohol content will be more then the yeast can handle how is that possible? I thought they die after the alcohol gets to strong for them?

 

[dmtaylor]

I heard great things about S04 so thought I would try it and so far it taste really well. So if it goes to 1.000 that means the alcohol content will be more then the yeast can handle how is that possible? I thought they die after the alcohol gets to strong for them?

I could be wrong. Maybe they'll get tired at 1.005. I don't think it will be >1.010 though. My experience says "expect the unexpected", and "be patient because it might not be done when you want it to be done".

 

[bmd2k1]

I heard great things about S04 so thought I would try it and so far it taste really well. So if it goes to 1.000 that means the alcohol content will be more then the yeast can handle how is that possible? I thought they die after the alcohol gets to strong for them?

Everyone's got their own favorite yeast(s)....mine does happen to be S04 when fermented low-mid60s. It cold crashes like a champ, forms great firm lees & leaves a very clear cider. I like to start with an OG around 1.63-5.....and will cold crash around 1.015-8 -- I'm a semi-sweet fan. For cider...you can toss attenuation out the window...as all the sugar in AJ is fermentable....it's a # applicable to beers.

I've had S04 take one of my "cheaters" ice ciders into the 12+% ABV range.

My typical fermentation is about 7days when done low-mid60s. I don't add any chemicals to my ciders either.

Cheers & good luck [emoji111]

 

[Austin Willoughby]

I could be wrong. Maybe they'll get tired at 1.005. I don't think it will be >1.010 though. My experience says "expect the unexpected", and "be patient because it might not be done when you want it to be done".

Ok cool that wouldn't be to bad but I just assumed they would die around 8 percent alcohol and by 1.010 since that would be about 8 percent bc I started with a 1.070 gravity. The yeast proof for s04 I read should yield more then 8 percent

 

[Austin Willoughby]

Everyone's got their own favorite yeast(s)....mine does happen to be S04 when fermented low-mid60s. It cold crashes like a champ, forms great firm lees & leaves a very clear cider. I like to start with an OG around 1.63-5.....and will cold crash around 1.015-8 -- I'm a semi-sweet fan. For cider...you can toss attenuation out the window...as all the sugar in AJ is fermentable....it's a # applicable to beers.

I've had S04 take one of my "cheaters" ice ciders into the 12+% ABV range.

My typical fermentation is about 7days when done low-mid60s. I don't add any chemicals to my ciders either.

Cheers & good luck [emoji111]

Awesome man I planned on cold crashing anyway at desired FG but was kinda hoping that if i made the right calculations the yeast would just die at the desired FG and help keep from missing my window to cold crash but that explains alot and now I have a better understanding of the yeast. I think I like the S04 besides having to ferment at 68 or less degrees. My temps have been 68 to 72 so hopefully it wont have to many bad off flavors or none at all. Thanks

 

[bmd2k1]

Ok cool that wouldn't be to bad but I just assumed they would die around 8 percent alcohol and by 1.010 since that would be about 8 percent bc I started with a 1.070 gravity. The yeast proof for s04 I read should yield more then 8 percent

Fermentis does state the "ideal" fermentation temp range for S04 is 59-68F.

Go to their website...you can download a PDF datasheet. [emoji41]

 

[Austin Willoughby]

Fermentis does state the "ideal" fermentation temp range for S04 is 59-68F.

Go to their website...you can download a PDF datasheet. [emoji41]

Yea I read all about it and realize I'll be a little outside the recommended temps but I also read some say above 70 it will create esters which from what i understand is fruity flavors. Now whether or not those will be good or bad fruity flavors I'm not sure but maybe it'll just add yo the cider profile.

 

[Maylar]

Now of course this is assuming I get good fermentation that will attenuate its full 75-80% now is this the correct way to get the desired sweetness? I don't want to back sweeten. So basically I'm trying to allow the yeast to die at my desired FG? Thanks in advance!

Attenuation means nothing with cider. Unlike beer, the sugars in apple juice are 100% fermentable. The yeast will continue converting sugar until it's gone or until they reach their alcohol tolerance. S-04 has been reported here as quitting anywhere between 9.5 and 12% ABV.

 

[Yooper]

Yea I read all about it and realize I'll be a little outside the recommended temps but I also read some say above 70 it will create esters which from what i understand is fruity flavors. Now whether or not those will be good or bad fruity flavors I'm not sure but maybe it'll just add yo the cider profile.

It's a weird bad flavor, not a pleasant fruity flavor. I'd try to keep it in a bin of water with a frozen water bottle or two in it next time, because temperatures matter.

Like was mentioned, with cider and wine you don't have an attenuation issue to consider- all simple sugars will ferment out. You'll get apparent attenuation of like 110% or more, so calculating attenuation won't work.

My cider with S04 always stops around 1.004, while with wine yeast it'll stop at .990-.996.

 

[Austin Willoughby]

I've got it in a dwap

It's a weird bad flavor, not a pleasant fruity flavor. I'd try to keep it in a bin of water with a frozen water bottle or two in it next time, because temperatures matter.

Like was mentioned, with cider and wine you don't have an attenuation issue to consider- all simple sugars will ferment out. You'll get apparent attenuation of like 110% or more, so calculating attenuation won't work.

My cider with S04 always stops around 1.004, while with wine yeast it'll stop at .990-.996.

Ive got it in a swamp cooler but I have to keep my window unit on 68 just to get the temps down to 68 that even with the brew in swamp cooler with fan on it. Lol there's still a little bit of temp swings.

 

[MarkKF]

I don't like S-04 in cider, I don't use that one anymore, but I'll bet it finishes below 1.000 unless you kill the yeast early. If you don't feed your cider to any dogs, you can certainly always backsweeten to your desired FG using xylitol (lethal to dogs) which is not fermentable and tastes damn near exactly the same as real sugar. I did that with my last cider and love the result.

S-04 always finishes at 1.004 for me. I don’t add any sugar and usually get 6-6.5% ABV.