I am frustrated with my water out of my tap and the local spring, I think is a bit more "alive" than I want it to be. I am thinking about starting to build my own water from RO water out of one of those big vending type RO sources at Krogers. Does anyone know how those things work? Does it just filter the city water? How do I know it is doing a good job? Doesn't the RO process take a couple minutes to do its thing? Will taking 10-20 gallons at a time completely drain the machine of all of its filtered water where I am getting non-RO water in there? Just curious if this could be a potential problem.
Buying RO water for all-grain?
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LovesIPA
Well-Known Member
I use the Glacier water brand vending machines. They filter city water but the ones in my area do a good job. I bought a TDS meter and the tap water at my house reads ~120 ppm and the RO water from the machine reads 001 ppm. It takes exactly 2 minutes to fill a 5 gallon jug, which I buy at wal-mart for about $7. The only way to know if your local machine is doing a good job is to use a TDS meter. I bought mine on amazon for $22. However, they only detect dissolved ions, i.e. charged particles. Chlorine is a molecule not an ion so it doesn't detect it. I believe they have a rather large internal storage tank. That's why the machines are so big. I wouldn't worry about killing it if you wanted to fill a few jugs.
Of course, I am trying to chase down a bad off-flavor in my beer. I really don't think it's the water, but I'm not 100% sure.
Of course, I am trying to chase down a bad off-flavor in my beer. I really don't think it's the water, but I'm not 100% sure.
I was looking at doing the same with Walmart water so I started doing some research online. The best place for information that I've found is aquarium forums because they're very stringent on water requirements for some of their fish. Numerous people said that they bought some RO water at Walmart and it killed their fish. Another guy on their forum said he worked at Walmart and the "water guy" would just sign off the sheet and wouldn't change the membrane. I'd say for beer it's probably not that big of a deal, but if you're going to pay for it you might as well get what you pay for. You might have better results from an aquarium store that sells RO water...I would just ask around on those forums though.
As far as the initial source of the water, that doesn't matter when using RO. There are RO machines that are used in various third world countries where the water source is too unreliable for a simple filtration system. RO water is not simply filtered, it actually passes through a membrane similar to how the cells in your body work.
As far as the initial source of the water, that doesn't matter when using RO. There are RO machines that are used in various third world countries where the water source is too unreliable for a simple filtration system. RO water is not simply filtered, it actually passes through a membrane similar to how the cells in your body work.
You can buy your own system for about $100 including a large reservoir.
Honestly, I would pay the $20 or so and send a sample to Ward labs before doing anything.
There is a good chance your water is fine and only needs a charcoal filter for chlorine, or Camden tablets for chlorimine.
At the very worst, you would need to dilute SOME of your tap water with RO water + used one of the above for chlorine/chlorimine. 100% RO water is not the way to go... you can add back some of the salts, but not all.
Honestly, I would pay the $20 or so and send a sample to Ward labs before doing anything.
There is a good chance your water is fine and only needs a charcoal filter for chlorine, or Camden tablets for chlorimine.
At the very worst, you would need to dilute SOME of your tap water with RO water + used one of the above for chlorine/chlorimine. 100% RO water is not the way to go... you can add back some of the salts, but not all.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
Where are you seeing quality RO systems for $100?
Mine was $120 at bulkreefsupply.com, but that was a while ago.
100% RO water is fine to use, and I use it for many beer styles. I have a couple of styles, like stout, that I use a mix of my tap water and RO water for. In order to use your tap water like that, though, you need to know what's in it. I got a water report from Ward Lab (they are now something like $26.50) so I know what's in my tap water, and I have my own RO system in the brewery.
Everything I've read in the brewing science section contradicts what you are saying about using ro water. What keeps you from adding all essential minerals back into ro water? Pretty sure ajdelange says he believes in starting with 100% ro water and building his water profile from the ground up.
OP
OP
MedicMang
Well-Known Member
Wow. Such killer info. Thank you everyone for the responses. Seems to me like I need to have a more in depth chat with the couple people that I know that are fish freaks. Same with a fish store. I might just wander in and have a chat with him. Another reason that I did want to go strict RO was the specific water profiles for different styles. I did want to ask though; If I did not go with the RO at home option and just filtered through the charcoal filter, would I still need to treat it with camden? Will any filter work? How fast do you guys usually run the water?
If I did decide to go just RO, I would totally buy the home system for $120. That would pay its self off really quick.
The worker just blindly signing the paper and not changing what he needs is exactly why I didn't really trust this change in my brewing. It would seem to me that it would be inconsistent medium to work from. I don't know though. It probably doesn't matter.
If I did decide to go just RO, I would totally buy the home system for $120. That would pay its self off really quick.
The worker just blindly signing the paper and not changing what he needs is exactly why I didn't really trust this change in my brewing. It would seem to me that it would be inconsistent medium to work from. I don't know though. It probably doesn't matter.
Is there any waste of water associated with using a RO filter? I'm not quite sure how the filter works.
Airplanedoc
Well-Known Member
In regard to Walmart RO water - I have sent samples into Ward Labs from our area walmart on two occasions - Both times the results came back the same. Both times the mineral content was exactly what I would have expected with RO water - next to nothing in it.
In our area, the water has very high alkalinity - That is why I use it to cut my tap water 40-100% depending on style. I have not looked into a home system too far because it seemed to me with an initial look that highly alkaline water might require additional filtering and cause problems for the membranes over time...... .35 cents a gallon and using 5-6 3 gallon jugs seemed just as simple and cost effective. May be something I look into again at some point because it would be nice to have the RO water access right at home
In our area, the water has very high alkalinity - That is why I use it to cut my tap water 40-100% depending on style. I have not looked into a home system too far because it seemed to me with an initial look that highly alkaline water might require additional filtering and cause problems for the membranes over time...... .35 cents a gallon and using 5-6 3 gallon jugs seemed just as simple and cost effective. May be something I look into again at some point because it would be nice to have the RO water access right at home
Or water your plants
or wash your car
or wash your windows
or water your garden
There are lots of things you can do with the waste water, and if you're really worried about it you can add a pump that recirculates the water under high pressure for no waste.
I'm in Seattle, and water is cheap. Not sure what you guys are paying, but here's how it pencils out for me:
The base rate for 1" supply from the city is $85 every 2 months, but I'm charged that anyway, so it doesn't really contribute to this discussion.
Water is charged somewhere between $2.71 and $5.59 per ccf depending on usage.
A ccf is 100 cubic feet of water. There are 748 gallons in 1 ccf.
Let assume I use the max amount of water, and I'm charged the full $5.59 per ccf... that is $.0074 per gallon (about 3/4 of a penny per gallon).
I collect my RO water in a 55 gallon plastic container, and assuming there is a 1:4 water/waste ratio, I need to run 55 x 5, or 275 gallons to fill the container.
275 x $.0074 is $2.03.
It costs more than that just to start my truck, and running to the store for water every time you brew is a pain.
Don't forget that it's always good to have large amounts of potable water on hand for emergencies.
And yes, you can get a quality RO system for $100 on ebay.
BBL_Brewer
Well-Known Member
If you bought an RO unit, you would have to run off ~400 gallons of RO water to break even vs buying it from walmart. You can get 100 GPD RO units in just about any configuration you want off ebay for $120 or less depending how many stages you want. That's about 40 (5 gal) brewdays if you're all grain (and you're using 100% RO). Factor in gas and lugging around bottles of water and you can cut that down a little. Nice to have at the house. Plus you can use it for drinking, making ice or whatever else you want it for. If you're a bottled water drinker....definitely a money saver.
I don't think additional filtering would be necessary for highly alkaline water. My water is pretty hard. Comes out the tap around 300 ppm and RO is between 20-30 ppm (and I'm sure only part of that is alkalinity as CaCO3-). In AJ's water primer, he defines soft water as being less than 35 ppm alkalinity. So, unless your RO water comes out way above 35 ppm somewhere, I would say you have nothing to worry about. As far as RO membrane life, chlorine, low water pressure, and routine pre-filter maintenance are your worst enemys. Input water quality is not a major factor. As long as you're effectively removing chlorine (which may require a better carbon filter if you have a lot of chloramine) and changing your pre-filters when they need it (varies based on water quality and how much water you're running off) you should get a descent life span out of your membrane. If you have low water pressure you can add a booster pump. That will decrease your water rejection rate and make your membrane last longer. Unless you're on well water or have very low pressure on your city water, you probably won't need a booster pump.
I don't think additional filtering would be necessary for highly alkaline water. My water is pretty hard. Comes out the tap around 300 ppm and RO is between 20-30 ppm (and I'm sure only part of that is alkalinity as CaCO3-). In AJ's water primer, he defines soft water as being less than 35 ppm alkalinity. So, unless your RO water comes out way above 35 ppm somewhere, I would say you have nothing to worry about. As far as RO membrane life, chlorine, low water pressure, and routine pre-filter maintenance are your worst enemys. Input water quality is not a major factor. As long as you're effectively removing chlorine (which may require a better carbon filter if you have a lot of chloramine) and changing your pre-filters when they need it (varies based on water quality and how much water you're running off) you should get a descent life span out of your membrane. If you have low water pressure you can add a booster pump. That will decrease your water rejection rate and make your membrane last longer. Unless you're on well water or have very low pressure on your city water, you probably won't need a booster pump.
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