Burnt Mead Question

[smoutela]

Would "burnt" honey harden once cooled ?

Making a braggot with highly caramelized honey at a big brew day this Saturday with my HBC, and was wondering if I could just caramelize the honey (to almost black) the day before and just bring it with me.

Wouldn't want to be stuck at my pot stirring for 2 hours during the big brew.

 

[Arpolis]

I did a burnt mead braggot not to long ago. Personally I dont think you need to have the honey at the level where carbon is forming to get good caramel/complex flavors. I did 5 lb of honey mixed with 2 cups of water and got it to boiling and then set it on the lowest flame setting of the stove and slow boiled it for about 1 hour. At the 1 hour mark I added 1 more cup of water (Slowly). That was plenty to have a really nice caramel aroma, color & taste. Also it did not harden when cooled.

 

[smoutela]

At the 1 hour mark I added 1 more cup of water (Slowly). That was plenty to have a really nice caramel aroma, color & taste. Also it did not harden when cooled.

I can see that being true with all the added water.

Just for the record though, caramelized honey WILL HARDEN ROCK HARD once cooled.

I poured my honey into a silicone loaf baking pan. It hardened into a nice solid brick which was easily removable from the silicone mold.

Threw the "honey brick" into a grain bag and hung it into the boil during the last 10 minutes for my braggot.

 

[nitack]

I just made a 1 gallon batch last night. I was kind of surprised to taste the must and it just tastes like caramelized table sugar. I did a wee bit of research, and I'm thinking that you'll get an almost identical product if you caramelize honey to black and if you do the same with table sugar and then try to brew it. The big thing you hear about here is don't boil your honey because it burns off all the characteristics of honey, right? Well, burn them all off and your left with sugar, and the chemical sugars in honey are almost the same as table sugar. Add some energy (like cooking) and they suddenly get almost identical.

 

[ACbrewer]

I just made a 1 gallon batch last night. I was kind of surprised to taste the must and it just tastes like caramelized table sugar. I did a wee bit of research, and I'm thinking that you'll get an almost identical product if you caramelize honey to black and if you do the same with table sugar and then try to brew it. The big thing you hear about here is don't boil your honey because it burns off all the characteristics of honey, right? Well, burn them all off and your left with sugar, and the chemical sugars in honey are almost the same as table sugar. Add some energy (like cooking) and they suddenly get almost identical.

Not only is is sugar - but it is essentaily 'corn syrup'.. not HFCS, but corn syrup none the less. There is a proportion of something lie 40% glucose, 30% fructose and the rest water+flower flavor in honey. If you boil it, it drives of the flavor and leaves you with a glucose/fructose solution (and less water).

Not including water, HFCS is 45%g/55%f. I'm not sure, cut when people make 'belgium candy syrup' they basically convert sucross(white table sugar) into a G/F mix, which if my chemistry math is right should be about50/50 (again not including the water)

This corn syrup looks like honey creates a hugh problem for buyers and sellers of honey, and why it makes most sense to buy from local apiaries to prevent the cutting fo the honey by corn syrup - unless of course you want to heat the honey, then it doesn't really matter.

 

[nitack]

Not only is is sugar - but it is essentaily 'corn syrup'.. not HFCS, but corn syrup none the less. There is a proportion of something lie 40% glucose, 30% fructose and the rest water+flower flavor in honey. If you boil it, it drives of the flavor and leaves you with a glucose/fructose solution (and less water).

Not including water, HFCS is 45%g/55%f. I'm not sure, cut when people make 'belgium candy syrup' they basically convert sucross(white table sugar) into a G/F mix, which if my chemistry math is right should be about50/50 (again not including the water)

This corn syrup looks like honey creates a hugh problem for buyers and sellers of honey, and why it makes most sense to buy from local apiaries to prevent the cutting fo the honey by corn syrup - unless of course you want to heat the honey, then it doesn't really matter.

So it sounds like my suspicions were right, and Bochet is a complete waste of honey. You could make the same must by taking regular table sugar, caramelizing it, and then adding water to create a must. Table sugar is WAY cheaper than Honey. If mine turns out to brew anything decent maybe I'll start making Caramel Wine.

 

[ACbrewer]

Let us know how 'carmel wine' turns out.

 

[mooney]

What about half and half? Use half caramelised sugar to save money and half Un heated honey to get honey flavours? Would the honey still beer over powered?

 

[nitack]

What about half and half? Use half caramelised sugar to save money and half Un heated honey to get honey flavours? Would the honey still beer over powered?

Well I think this all comes down to how dark you cook the honey. Seems to be a lot of talk around here of cooking it till it is black as coal. At that point, nothing of the honey would remain I think, or so little so as not to matter. Maybe a lighter roast?

A "blonde bochet" if you will.

 

[Matrix4b]

So it sounds like my suspicions were right, and Bochet is a complete waste of honey. You could make the same must by taking regular table sugar, caramelizing it, and then adding water to create a must. Table sugar is WAY cheaper than Honey. If mine turns out to brew anything decent maybe I'll start making Caramel Wine.

"the chemical sugars in honey are almost the same as table sugar."

It's that ALMOST that gets you every time. I have seen where different types of honey make different types of Bochet that don't taste the same. Afterall, Rubies are ALMOST diamonds, chemically they are practically identical. In honey there are several different types of sugars and several different types of other things that are not burnt off in carmelizing. If you are going on "Almost" then think on this, the difference between the DNA of a human and an ape is less than 8%. That's ALMOST.

So, though cheaper, I think that it would be the equivilent of getting filtered honey verses unfiltered, or worse honey from the grocery store vs honey from an apiary. Me, I just did one over the weekend. I used alfalfa honey. Should turn out good.

Now don't get me wrong, you may still come up with a good product by making carmel first and then using that carmel to sweeten a regular honey mead. It is not going to taste the same as a bochet. Will it be good, perhapse but wouldnt be the same taste.

That being said, I don't really see the point of using a very high quality honey for it, unless you are backsweetening with the honey. That is one way to get those subtle tastes, carmelize only part of the honey.

Incidently, I like the silicon brick method mentoned. Then disolving the brick for later use. But keep in mind Honey's anti-microbial properties are null when it is converted into a solid, so treat it as a perishible as fruit and keep it from air for long term storage.

Matrix

 

[Matrix4b]

Well I think this all comes down to how dark you cook the honey. Seems to be a lot of talk around here of cooking it till it is black as coal. At that point, nothing of the honey would remain I think, or so little so as not to matter. Maybe a lighter roast?

A "blonde bochet" if you will.

The honey darkens up quite a bit during the last part of the process. I would go to a dark chocolate color and no more. Doing a color chart at 10-15 incriments is essential. I went to a dark amber color, looks like almost a Burnt Umber color but a touch lighter. I was tempted to go further but that seemed to be enough. The most disturbing part is when you get smoke puffs instead of steam. AND boy were they not kidding when they say add water slowly. I added a cup of water at room temp and it converted to steam instantly. For my Bochet, I wanted some complexity in it so I only carmelized 1/2 my honey, added water to cool down, then added the rest of the honey.

For a "blond Bochet" I think that I would use a very light honey and carmelize in a crockpot slowly over the course of 8 hours, but the crock pot would need to be on high still. From what I have read, this will still carmelize the honey but barely and it will keep many of the more subtler notes. Still need to try it.

Matrix

 

[ACbrewer]

It really depends on what you are using the honey for. I'd NEVER advocate using sugar in place of unheated honey in a mead. But if you are just going to burn.. er carmelize it, then you'd be converting the various sugars (monosaccrides) into polymered monosachrides while driving off most if not all of the honey volitales - this all takes place about 120 to 160 C. (wiki is really detailed on some of this). While honey contains Dextrin, that is simply another polymered monosachride. As an added test, make some syrup carmelize it, and do the same with some honey and compare the tastes.

Given what I've read about honey, I strongly recommend people find a local apiary and buy as near to that source point as possible. Anything from a major (and some of the minor) distributors is likely to have been cut, or have been stablized in a way that has driven off the volitale honey characteristics.