Brewing Tomorrow - Need Advice On Grain DIpH

[ScrewyBrewer]

Tomorrow I will be brewing a 10-gallon batch of NEIPA using the following grains. And mashing them in 12-gallons of reverse osmosis water.

ezRecipe v2.02.01 is defaulting to a DIpH of 5.69 [2.8L] for the 2-Row and 6.04 [2L] DIpH for the Torrified Wheat.

21 pounds of Briess American 2-Row Brewers Malt [batch #51558]
2 pounds Torrified Wheat [MoreBeer]

I've attached the RO water profile I will use for dilution water below if it helps.

This will be a great opportunity to enter more accurate DIpH values for these two particular grains, if they are known. I will be taking a mash pH sample cooled to 77F at 30-minutes into the mash. I appreciate any input that @RPIScotty and @Silver_Is_Money can to give.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I have data direct from Briess indicating that their 2-Row Brewers malt (for the year and season in which they derived the data given to me) has (or had) a measured DIpH value of 5.57 - 5.58, with this value consistent across a fair number of samples. I don't have any data for the Torrified Wheat, but seeing as it is un-malted, its DIpH will thereby likely come in at somewhat higher than a typical malted wheat on first guess, so I believe you are likely to be in the ballpark, and perhaps (though admittedly just guessing here) a bit low for the torrified. It will be interesting to see how this batch turns out.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I have data direct from Briess indicating that their 2-Row Brewers malt (for the year and season in which they derived the data given to me) has (or had) a measured DIpH value of 5.57 - 5.58, with this value consistent across a fair number of samples. I don't have any data for the Torrified Wheat, but seeing as it is un-malted, its DIpH will thereby likely come in at somewhat higher than a typical malted wheat on first guess, so I believe you are likely to be in the ballpark, and perhaps (though admittedly just guessing here) a bit low for the torrified. It will be interesting to see how this batch turns out.

Thanks Larry. I’ll go with 5.58 DIpH for the Briess malt and 6.04 for the Wheat. Maybe we’ll hear what @RPIScotty can add.

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks Larry. I’ll go with 5.58 DIpH for the Briess malt and 6.04 for the Wheat. Maybe we’ll hear what @RPIScotty can add.

5.50 and 6.61 respectively for my sheet.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

This morning I found the spec sheet for Briess 2-Row and the color is listed as 1.8L, not 2.8L as I had previously posted. Unfortunately the color of the Torrified Wheat is not listed. But if it's also from Briess their sheet lists the color as 1.5L.

ezRecipe v2.02.01 is defaulting to a DIpH of 5.72 [1.8L] for the 2-Row and 6.04 [2L] DIpH for the Torrified Wheat.

For today's brew I will go with the following which gives a predicted mash pH of 5.38. Thank you Derek and Larry for joining in and lending a hand. I look forward to sharing my results with you.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

For right close to 1 mL of 88% lactic acid added, MME 6.40 is predicting a mash pH of 5.373, so we are really close here. I used flaked wheat as torrified, as its default DIpH is a match. All settings were left at defaults. Base malt selector was set to North American 2-Row Brewers.



Edit: How confident are you that your RO water has 13 ppm alkalinity?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

For right close to 1 mL of 88% lactic acid added, MME 6.40 is predicting a mash pH of 5.373, so we are really close here. I used flaked wheat as torrified, as its default DIpH is a match. All settings were left at defaults. Base malt selector was set to North American 2-Row Brewers.

Edit: How confident are you that your RO water has 13 ppm alkalinity?

Good point. It's a guestimate at best based on a 3-5 TDS reading on the RO out line. I've never had my source water or RO water tested but in my mind the alkalinity is very low. Looking at my dillution water profile I can see the TDS should be in the 3-5 range but it isn't.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Your RO water analyticals point to a TDS of ballpark 21 ppm by my calculation. If you are actually only reading 3-5 ppm for it via your TDS meter, then your alkalinity is far less than 13 ppm.

TDS ~= 8 + 4 + 1 + 16/2
TDS ~= 21 ppm

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The Briess 2-Row has me puzzled a bit too because we have DIpH values of 5.72, 5.60 and 5.50. It's time to start brewing now. I'll pick this and the TDS meaurements up later Larry. Thank you.

 

[Big Monk]

The Briess 2-Row has me puzzled a bit too because we have DIpH values of 5.72, 5.60 and 5.50. It's time to start brewing now. I'll pick this and the TDS meaurements up later Larry. Thank you.

Well keep in mind that my value is for “American 2-Row” and is an amalgamation of 2 or 3 Briess values plus a few Rahr values.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If your 12 gallons of RO waters alkalinity is close to zero (as opposed to being a presumed 13 ppm), then making the presumption that 2-Row Brewers has a DIpH of ~5.7 will compensate for this (or offset it) within your software. And in so doing it may prove to be a case of two presumptive wrongs making a right.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Well the die is cast. Once I get caught up on brew tasks and the sample is cool I'll take the mash pH reading.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Is there a mash pH update for us yet?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

This morning I'm happy to say the pH reading of my mash sample at 77F was 5.25 pH. The sample was taken yesterday at thirty minutes from the start of the mash. And stored overnight in a glass jar covered with plastic wrap held in place with an elastic band.

(standard)

(metric)

The predicted mash pH was 5.38 using the DIpH values we decided on yesterday. Given all of the variables associated with mash pH prediction anytime I fall within a 5.2pH to 5.5pH I am happy. Especially when brewing a recipe for the first time or sourcing grains from a different supplier.

To see the entire details of my brew day, ezRecipe Design users should download the attached recipe file. Save the exported recipe as an '.xml' file by removing the '.txt' extension. Currently, I'm not able to attach the recipe files using an '.xml' extension.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Your RO water analyticals point to a TDS of ballpark 21 ppm by my calculation. If you are actually only reading 3-5 ppm for it via your TDS meter, then your alkalinity is far less than 13 ppm.

TDS ~= 8 + 4 + 1 + 16/2
TDS ~= 21 ppm

Larry in your estimation how accurately does the TDS formula you provided reflect TDS? The TDS calculations I use now rely on input from an ORP meter, which I'm not sure many brewers may own.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Larry in your estimation how accurately does the TDS formula you provided reflect TDS? The TDS calculations I use now rely on input from an ORP meter, which I'm not sure many brewers may own.

True TDS is not determined via measuring waters inverse resistance to current flow or via ion summation or via redox (ORP). True TDS can only be measured via weighing the constituents left behind when one fully evaporates a known quantity of water. All of the other methods are merely quick and dirty (or ballpark) TDS methods.

That said: The best overall match for equivalence between the accepted evaporation method of deriving true TDS and the ion summation method comes from when one divides bicarbonate by 2. This is because during evaporation roughly half of the bicarbonate species evolve out as gas and do not remain behind to be weighed.

I presume your redox meter is a combination device and you are using inverse resistance and a multiplicative factor to ballpark TDS.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If you both fully and accurately know the quantitative ppm values of all of a waters extant ion species the summation method should prove to be superior to measuring a waters conductance (inverse resistance) when attempting to derive TDS.

Conductance is likely to be the weakest (or most "ballpark") method for determining TDS.

 

[ajdelange]

Are you using a TDS (active) electrode or an ORP (passive) electrode? The latter is great for measuring the oxidation state of the sample but won't tell you much about the TDS.

Also any pH meter is an ORP meter as an ORP meter is simply a mV meter. A TDS meter also requires a current source to allow the conductivity of the sample to be measured. Modern "meters" (in which the meter is just a display device - all the smarts are in the electrodes) are pH, conductivity, ORP, ISE... depending on which electrode you attach.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I should have added to my post that I have use a Hanna HI98121 Combo meter. It has an ORP passive electrode. And an RO filter with a built-in TDS meter capable of reading the source and filtered water TDS values.

I am trying to figure out if having my RO water analyzed is the only way to determine its alkalinity. Or if using an ORP or TDS meter can shed some light as to its alkalinity.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I don't know if this helps, but if I'm looking at this correctly, ppm alkalinity (as CaCO3) can be little to no greater than a ballpark reading of TDS via conductivity, so if your meter consistently reads your RO water at 5 ppm TDS, your alkalinity can be no greater than about a maximum of ballpark 6 ppm. And that would be for the specific case wherein 100% of your waters anions are from bicarbonate.

 

[ajdelange]

Keep in mind that an alkalinity test is exceeding simple to do. Buy a test kit and instead of testing one test tube full test 10 or 20 test tubes full. Add 10 or 20 times the normal amount of indicator and divide the result by 10 or 20. For example, if the water's alkalinity is 2.7 ppm as CaCO3 and the test sensitivity is 10 ppm per drop it would take 0.27 drop to turn a test tube full but it will take 2.7 (i.e 3) or 5.4 (i.e. 5) drops to turn 10 or 20 test tubes full. In the case of 10x divide 30 (3 drops times 10 ppm per drop) by 10 to get 3.00. In the case of 20x divide 5 by 20 to get 2.5. Actually, the fact that 1 drop will turn one test tube full tells you alkalinity is less than 10 ppm and that should be sufficient.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

AJ thanks for sharing your idea on testing for alkalinity. I'll pick up a kit and test my RO water output. I'll be replacing the RO membrane and filter cartridges this week so the timing is perfect. I found the video below online and the test looks easy to do.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The video shows a nice alkalinity test kit, but I couldn't find it on their website. Would you provide a link?

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The video shows a nice alkalinity test kit, but I couldn't find it on their website. Would you provide a link?

Further down in the YouTube post he replies to using the Hanna Alkalinity Chemical Test Kit. Although I posted the video to show the testing approach that AJ had posted, I think less expensive alkalinity test kits can also be used, Walmart has a kit that costs about $6 USD.

Here is another video on doing an alkalinity test using sulfuric acid.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Yesterday I brewed a Frankenjuice Triple IPA for the first time and was very happy with the day's results. Here are the list of grains mashed in treated Reverse osmosis water. The mash sample was taken 30 minutes in and it measured 5.34 when cooled to room temperature. The preboil gravity was perfect at 1.067 and the original gravity 1.083 because I overshot the postboil volume by a small amount. If the large pitch of WLP001 yeast gives 75% attenuation I should have an almost 11% alcohol beer.

All in all it turned out to be a very good brew day.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

This is for those of us who brew metric.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I was able to get a final gravity check last night while dry hopping and then adjust the efficiency numbers accordingly.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

And for those of us who brew in metric...

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I have included five recently brewed recipes with their predicted and actual brewday results in the latest release of ezRecipe Design 2.02.01.

ezRecipe Design - The Full Featured Beer Recipe Designer For Excel

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Our site is back up and running and ready for ezRecipe Design downloads once again.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Go figure. Every summer I brew a few batches of Witbier using a favorite Witbier recipe. This year I changed the water profile by doubling the amount of Lactic acid normally used. The idea was to see if I or anyone else would notice. One would be led to believe the resulting 4.97 mash pH broke all the rules. But in fact this year's batch of Witbier received more compliments than ever. It just goes to show that a mash pH range of 5.2 to 5.6 is more of a guideline and not a hard fast rule that applied to all beer styles.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

...and for our friends who brew in Metric.

 

[Beer-lord]

I brewed yesterday and tried to get as low as 5.2 and came in at 5.08. Being concerned, I added baking soda (man, a tiny bit goes a long way) and it went up to 5.26. Most of my beers have been 5.35-5.45 and I wanted to see if I can tell the difference. I hope so.
Your program has been the most accurate of all the others I've tried. Thanks for the work you do.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

@Beer-lord thank you for the positive feedback based on your brew day results and for your support. I admit I've never felt more confident about the predictive accuracy of this current ezRecipe release. That's why I continue to post the results of every ezRecipe Design batch of beer I've brewed along with my complete recipes. Including batch volumes, grains, hops, water treatment, yeast and brewing information. For the record I also keep a photo record of every batch I brew as a sanity check for my actual brew day results.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Yesterday morning an issue with ezRecipe Design was reported. A run-time error was triggered when switching between Lactic and Phosphorus acid on the ezRecipe page. The issue has now been resolved. Users are advised download the August 11, 2019 build of ezRecipe Design version 2.02.02 if they have not already done so.

Remember to export your favorite recipes to BeerXML from your current version and then import them into this latest release. Click here to get the latest version of ezRecipe Design.