Brewing Lagers

[Hartwa]

Hi All...

This is my 1st post on this site.

I have been home brewing all grain for a couple of years. I have little difficulty brewing ales... I have tried a few lagers with no luck. They always seem to come out with low alcohol and really bitter.


I have given up on lagers for the most part..butI am thinking of trying one again. I hear that lagers are harder to get good fermentation so I have already tried the following things...

> Get O2 in the wort by shaking the fermentor and splashing the wort around...Lagers need more O2.
> Start the fermentation at a higher temp to get it going...

I have done these things with still poor results. I buy fresh yeast that comes in the bag that you punch for a starter....

I appreciate any insight into what else I should be doing... I am most upset with the bitterness of the beer. I think that it is not from the hops...it just tastes like green beer that needs to sit for a long while. That makes me think that the lagers may not be something that is even drinkable in 3 months after brewing... Maybe this is an aging problem?

Apprecitate any help..

Hartwa

 

[pompeiisneaks]

Lagering is best at at least 3 months.. but are you taking gravity readings? That's the only way to know if it is fermenting totally or not. How do you know it is low alcohol? it tastes low alcohol? You may want to also add two things to the process, 1. add some yeast nutrient and 2. make a real starter. This gives the yeast a much better head start. if a beer doesn't ferment out, its usually not bitter, its super sweet due to all the sugars still in the beer. maybe the bitterness is some other off flavor? Not sure. I think a few more details on what I've asked will help clarify a bit more what is going awry.

 

[Hartwa]

It has been awhile since I tried one but I think the deal was I would get to a point where the spG was not dropping anymore but the alcohol content would only be max 4%. The FG would never get to down to what it was supposed to get to. For example...if the FG would expect to be 1.012 it would set at 1.025 or so.

The bitter taste I find is simular to what I get when I try to drink a brown ale right after I keg it. It seems like it mellows out after a few months after it ages. This never happens with the lagers...they stay bitter on me.

How long does it take for your lagers to finish fermenting? Then how long do you lager? Maybe I am just too impatient.

Thanks..

Hartwa

 

[johnnybob]

Check out Ken Lenard's website @ mayfair court brewhouse.com for techniques and good recipes. I brewed my first lager last year using some of his techniques and one of his recipes. The beer came out really good. Crystal clear and very tasty.

 

[ndsgr]

I have done these things with still poor results. I buy fresh yeast that comes in the bag that you punch for a starter....

Are you pitching the smack pack into a starter or just pitching from the bag? The smack pack itself is not a starter, it's only to show that the yeast inside is viable. Lagers need a huge starter or lots of vials/smack packs...

 

[pompeiisneaks]

I'm not sure why they stop so early. Making a starter, and getting some yeast nutrient might help. As for the off flavor, there are two kinds of bitterness in beer I believe, 1. Hops bitterness and that should be intentional and can't easily exceed what the hops provides... Just make sure you're not using a much higher AA hops than the recipe calls for. For example my recipe for a Belgian tripel wanted 2 oz of Saaz, but I was using 6.8% AA and the recipe wanted 3.0% so I had to adjust the amount of hops. The other 2. Astringency, is due to mashing at too high a temperature. I think I recall even reading that lagers tend to make these flavors even more noticeable, because they're cleaner beers after finishing so off flavors tend to be stronger. I'm not 100% sure on either of those, since I've only done 3 lagers and none had off flavors and I've never had an ale or lager w/ too much bitterness. Sorry, but I do think trying starters and some yeast nutrient will help w/ the low/slow attenuation issue.

 

[BrookdaleBrew]

Are you pitching the smack pack into a starter or just pitching from the bag? The smack pack itself is not a starter, it's only to show that the yeast inside is viable. Lagers need a huge starter or lots of vials/smack packs...

This. You need to pitch about 4 times as much yeast as you'd pitch for an ale.

 

[jim81147]

Like everyone has already said , lots of O2 , Tons of yeast and yeast nutrient and some patience .
Also I have had better luck starting out a few degrees cooler than what I want for fermentation , then I pitch the yeast and let the temp rise a bit at the same time. I think this helps get the yeast going rather than cooling the wort down after pitching

 

[Hartwa]

Thanks for all the help.

I will go with the larger starter volume and nutrient. Do you boil the nutrient in the wort or just add it to the starter?

 

[markg388]

i've also made the mistake of thinking "lagers ferment in the fridge", which is not accurate at all, the correct temperature is 50. it should smell and taste relatively delicious and drinkable, yet unrefined, at the end of primary fermentation. the extended lagering is pretty much for that extra clean and crisp character lagers are known for. the amount of yeast you're pitching is still the #1 concern just like everyone else says though. You can also pitch 2 packs of saflager (assuming the beer is in the 1.050 neighborhood) with good results if you don't want to go through the trouble of making a big starter.

I guess the good news is that your lagers don't taste like bandaids, fruit, blood, butterscotch, feet, creamed corn or other irritating off flavors that love to show up in lagers.

 

[Hartwa]

Thanks for all the help... I did a 3qt starter for my heinenken clone. I used a stir plate and let it go for 3 days before pitching. The last 24 hours I let it cool down to 52°F. I also added some yeast nutient.

I mashed on Sat... I added 5 tsp of nutrient to the wort before boil. I pitched the yeast sat night and I am getting bubbling out of the air lock like I have never gotten before from a lager. I checked it Sunday at noon and it is going real strong. Thanks for all the advice.

I plan to let it go a while (down to 1.022) and test it to see if it needs a diacetly rest before lagering. I heard that you should begin lager before the fermentation is totally complete. Sound right?

 

[osagedr]

Sounds like you have it right now. You probably weren't pitching anywhere close to enough yeast previously. I've been there a number of times. Eventually moved to two packs of rehydrated dry yeast, but down the road I will go back to liquid with a big enough starter.

Let it get down to around 1.020 or 1.018 then raise your temp for d-rest. Then rack it off the yeast and begin lowering your temp gradually (two or three degrees per day) and lager it for as long as you like.

 

[Yooper]

I heard that you should begin lager before the fermentation is totally complete. Sound right?

No. You want to do the diacetyl rest before fementation is totally complete, but you don't want to rack the beer off of the yeast cake and lager until you're at a steady Fg. The temperature drop during lagering will make the yeast go dormant, so if you're not at FG, the beer will not fully attenuate.

 

[Hartwa]

I did the diacetly rest at 1.018 and 24 hours latter it was at 1.011. I transferred to my soda keg and began lagering. I lowering the temp by 3 degrees per day.


I started to due multiple batches so I can reuse the yeast. On the same day I began lagering I brewed a second batch and just added it to the same fermentor as the original batch...on top the yeast at the bottom of the fermentor. After 3 days now I got nothing...not a bubble. I am surprised...I expected it would take right off. Should I have done a starter first from the slurry?

 

[pompeiisneaks]

Normally pitching on a yeast cake is guaranteed to ferment like mad, in fact a more common problem with yeast cake is over pitching causing off flavors. Also remember that no airlock activity does not equal no fermentation. If you're worried, take a gravity reading, and check to see if it's going down. The yeast may need rousing, if it went really dormant, though.

 

[Scandalous]

One addition to add, other than a great starter, is that your overly bitter/harsh lager may be a result of water hardness. Our water is very hard, and use of city water makes the recreation of those luscious german helles or chzech pils nigh impossible.

The best way to accomodate, other than mixing distilled water (do not use all distilled!) with your water or usung a portion of RO water is to dial way back on the bitterness. Pure and simple.

Finally, check out Mr. Malty on pitching rates.

 

[Scandalous]

Someone stop me. Lagers take much longer to ferment than regular beers. For these beers, you should be taking a gravity a gravity reading pretty regularly. Since I pitched warm (bad I know), I had to do a diacetly rest. To know when to do the rest, it is vital to know when your beer is mostly (but not completely finished). One fermenter took 3 weeks and the other took over 4. Same 10 gallon batch split into to fermenters, same yeast split in half and pitched.

Good luck on the lager brewing, it is great to see homebrewers trying to master a noble art.

 

[Hartwa]

Thanks for all the help...

You were right about the fermentation. I checked the SG last night and it is at 1.016 from 1.049 (OG). I am surprised because I just put it in the fermenter on Sat. Christmas day...but it was on top of the previous batches yeast cake. Anyway...I took it out to do a diacetyl rest. It tasted OK...maybe a bit too bitter but it is supposed to be a Heineken clone. Also the liquid had a lot of CO2 bubbles in it. Maybe most of it dissolved in the brew...that is why I never saw a bubble out of the air lock. Still I am surprised and a little leery about what happened here...

Back to the bitterness.... It seems like I am always on the high side of the bitterness and I do not know why. I am not over hopping or boiling too long. I realize that I have to take into account the % acid on each packet of hops I use....my recipes use HBU's so it is easy to make sure you are using the correct amount. I also am not boiling longer than I am supposed to....not getting over utilization from the boil.

I am an AG brewer... my procedure is below...

Use program to determine my dough in water temp. Put water in my mash tun at correct temp and add grain to water. Mix thoroughly, cover and come back 90 minutes later. Temp always holds well and I usually hit target within a few degrees. Sparge at 170° until I get 5.5 - 6.5 gallons for the boil.

Cover and get to boil. Add hops at the correct time stir and recover. One question.... I notice that after the hot break I get a bunch of green stuff stuck to the top of my cover and sides that is above the liquid mark. I typically scrap this off and add it back to the boiling wort. Maybe I should not do this? Note if I did not cover it the stuff would never boil up and get stuck to the sides...at least I do not think it would.

From there I chill it using a copper chiller to 70-80° and add it to the fermenter. I sanitize the fermenter with 1 tbs bleach / gallon water and rinse with hot tap water. The rinse is largely controlled....sometimes I do more or less. Could be the problem why some beers are OK and some are bad. Can bleach residue add bitter flavor to beer? Since reading more... I am changing my sanitation to 1tbs / 5 gallons with 1oz of vinegar and using no rinse.

I pitch the yeast and I check the OG in the fermenter and adjust it down if needed.... if it is already low I just let it go. Usually I come out high so I usually add water to get the OG on target.

I let it set in the fermenter until steady SG. I brew batches in succession so I add the next batch to the pervious yeast cake in the same fermenter. In each case I rack batch 1 to the secondary and then add the next batch to the primary. I eventually keg all my beer in SST soda kegs and force carbonate. Below is a series of good and bad that I made last spring for a nut brown ale...

Batch 1 - never noted any issues but came out real bitter. Let it age a little more 2 months and it mellowed out but I would not serve it to friends.
Batch 2 - same fermenter and yeast cake as 1. Came out excellent ....everyone was chanting my name as the best brewer in the world.
Batch 3 - same fermenter and yeast cake as 1 & 2. Too bitter - sick of this so I am dumping.

I have had this unexplained inconsistency for 8 years of all grain brewing... The record above with the ales is not typical...usually I get 1 bad one out of 4 good ones. I never had a good lager which is what started this thread...always bitter. So I gave up on them...

Strangely...I have never brewed a bad hefe veizen for some reason. Maybe a clue there for someone.... I use the wheilstephan yeast for that and the American ale yeast for the nut browns.

What I have learned that I think should help is this...

Always use a starter...I rarely did this but that does not explain why my 3 batch above was bad. I am going to stop fermenting on the previous batch. I will pull a sample off of it an us it as a starter.
Change my sanitation procedure as mentioned above. Could be off flavors from bleach residue.
Maybe stop putting the hot break material back in the wort?

Also...I should mention that I have really soft well water here. The pH is like 5.4 or something. There is no softener....is it just naturally acid. Is my water profile too low? not enough minerals in the water? I guess that would not explain why some are good batches and some are bad. They would all be bad...

If anyone sees anything else I should do please don't hesitate to share...thanks.

 

[pompeiisneaks]

I didnt read everything you have here, as I'm a little short on time, but I hope I'll have time to read it all soon. One thing I did notice in your process that could be a partial problem. Repitching on the yeast cake. Now, don't get me wrong, I know a lot of brewers do it, and don't have any significant issues. I've done it once too w/o any problems. But I did it from a Pale ale to an IPA with identical hops in different quantities. (cascade and ctz) therefore contributing almost identical flavors. There are, though at least 2 major side effects to using an existing yeast cake:

1. Massive overpitching. the yeast is very high in volume at this point, and will reproduce again upon seeing new wort. This alone can cause problems.
2. Reusing yeast too much w/o washing can cause mutations, and reuse more than a few times anyway, even with washing increases chances of mutations, causing off flavors.

Either of these could cause this 'bitterness' you're referring to. As mentioned, a LOT of people reuse the cake and don't have significant issues, but you may want to try, at least as an experiment, to not reuse the cake once on a lager. Also, as far as restirring in the hops, no that shouldn't adversely effect the hops utilization (or 'overuse' it) the utilization is effectively set as a pretty good average measure, and you're rarely going to massively over utilize hops to the point its way too bitter for the style. Its more common to have less hops than you want by boil overs etc, but even that, per one of my friends at a brewery, is massively overrated, you don't really lose a lot of hops in a boil over per his experience. As far as sanitization, you could try getting some iodophor, just to ensure its NOT that, I personally use Iodophor and love it, others like Star-San, you could try that too... eliminating the things you're concerned about one at a time will help narrow it down for sure.

 

[Scandalous]

A couple of things. I am very curious about the boil and about the hop rate. Why do you cover your beer? If you are a lager brewer, you are really risking (if not guaranteeing) off-flavor compounds like DMS.

The scraping off the hops is fine, happens every time with me during the first addition, I add the bittering hops and it nucleates. But my second curiousity is the use of HBUs versus IBUs. My understanding is that HBU is a potential bittering number and is not volume specific and IBUs is actual bittering value for a specific volume. One of your issues may be purely due to overhopping.

For rinse. Bleach can contribute a phenolic (bandaidy) flavor, so it wont be bitter. My recommendation is to skip the bleach and the vinegar (something tells me that some of your more troublesome household spoliants like acetobactor might snicker at the vinegar). Starsan is awesome (really, don't fear the foam), but idophor is a very inexpensive alternative.

The other (BIG) issue is pitching on the yeast cake. The yeast cake is living and dead yeast cells, and trub, which includes the suspended hop from the previous batches (and this might accumulate). Your bitterness might come from here. Given your bad luck with lagers, and your record of 1 out of 4 ales coming out poorly, I think your standard process is providing a big clue.

Consider this:
1. Stick with the good sanitization, but this wont be a bittering issue.
2. Calculate IBUs for the batch. Dial back, but also consider BU to GU ratio.
3. Observe hop type. High cohumulone hops (e.g. columbus and chinook) IMHO will have a more agressive bitterness.
4. Instead of pitching on the yeast cake, make a fresh yeast starter. If you are one of those brewers who likes to save a buck (and I don't blame you), check out yeast washing. It is a method of taking the yeast cake and "washing" it to remove some of the trub and dead yeast cells. This to me is way too much work. Dropping 5 to 7 bucks on yeast each batch and getting pretty darned near 100% tasty batches is well worth it.
If you are interested, you could pm me your recipe, including hop amount and AAU's.

Jeff Scanlan
Sun Prairie Wort Hogs

 

[Hartwa]

Thanks for the help....

What is the significance of having the kettle covered? I cover it so it heats up faster and I do not loose as much water so I can keep my boils smaller...basically less time.

When I open the spicket after the wort is cooled I only take the clear wort...the trub is largely left in the brew kettle. I don't think that I am getting too much trub in the kettle. One thing that I have considered is that I am not sanitizing the spicket after the boil...I have just assumed that the whole kettle is hot and sterile from the long boil...including the spicket. Thoughts?

The HBU's are volume specific since I am following a recipe for a specific batch size. The recipe that I am using is a 5 gallon batch. I don't mind posting it below...I got it from a clone beer book.

9.25 lbs German Pilsner
0.25 lbs 10°L Carmel

I used about a 1/1 ratio for the mash Qt water / lbs grain. Mash at 150°F for 90 minutes. Fly sparge at 175°C until I get 6.5 gallons to the brew pot. I have a heated water tower I built for this....

I add 1 0z of 3.88% AA Hallertau at the beginning of the boil. Boil for 80 minutes then add 0.25 oz hallertau & some Irish moss and boil and additional 10 minutes (90 minutes total). Cool with chiller down to 75°F or so and transfer to chiller. Note...when I transfer I just open spicket and let the wort free fall into fermentor...no tube. Do you think that this is increasing the exposure to air? I thought that I want the wort to splash around a lot to oxygenate the wort for the yeast. Thoughts?

I then pitch the yeast 2042 Danish Lager yeast. The recipe says that it is a 24 IBU. Using my promash software I get 19.4. I should not be over hopping... Thoughts?

I considered that I am getting more hop utilization than expected. Consider that the only beers that never fail is my hefe's and they only use 2 HBU's per 5 gallon batchs....

Am I getting over utilization because I am initially boiling more wort than the recipe called for thus reducing the gravity? If I end up with a 1.049 after the boil with 5.5gallons I probably started with a 1.039 wort at 6.5 gallons. According to the bitterness calculators on line this adds only a fraction of a IBU. I am not sure that I believe this though. I know that the one good batch of nut brown above (batch 2) I had to add 0.5 gallons of water to get 5 gallons. I don't always record the additions or dilutions like I should so I am not sure about the bad batches. What do you guys think?

Am I getting over utilization because my water is really soft. Less minerals in the water leads to super extraction of the acids in the hops? Nothing on line that says there is a correlation here...probably unlikely since my water is consistent for every batch.

 

[osagedr]

Thanks for the help....

What is the significance of having the kettle covered?

Do not cover your kettle during your boil, and given that many lagers incorporate pilsner malt, you will often want to move to a 90 minute (uncovered) boil. The link below is to a post that provides some info.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/dms-formation-evaporation-158959/#post1833642

 

[pompeiisneaks]

in any boil you want some evaporation and covering it also is bad in many other ways, including stopping the removal of DMS which is not wanted... that's about as simply as it can be stated. I've read it again and again, never cover your boil. Just add a bit extra water so that your final boil volume after an hour is where you want it.

 

[Hartwa]

Ok I will not cover the boil....

One more area that I never considered is carbonation. My beer is kegged and I seem to always have issues getting the carbonation just right to the point I give up and let the beer foam settle in my glass. I wonder if my percieved bitterness is really over carbonation.

Instead of dumping my 3rd batch of nut brown I am going to let it go almost flat and taste it. See if that improves it. Thoughts?

 

[Scandalous]

So I have been thinking about this (obsessing really) and I other that the fact that I have no idea why the beer is too bitter, i do think you are on the right track as a brewer.

Here's why:
You are removing kettle trub, which really is not all that necessary (perhaps more so for helles and pils), on the other hand, it is a technique for brewing a clean fine lager. The hops are indeed right on. The spigot should indeed be sanitized by the boil. I use keggles, but I have yet to remove the ball valves (I do CIP).

I still wonder about the water. You say its very soft, and though I am not enough of a beer geek to know my bottom from my belly button (yet!), soft water is supposed to be good for gentle hopping, so if it is soft as you say, this is less likely to be it.

Finally, if you send me your email, I can send you a carb/tap Excel chart for your keg.This is a better solution for getting that right (proper length of tap hose+beer temp, proper CO2 pressure=happy tapper). Other than that, de gassing will strip hop character, so you could gas off some. One other thing, if you are perceiving hop bitterness from carbonic acid, I am not so sure degassing will help as the carbonic acid is a compound that comes from the CO2, but I do not think it is the same as CO2 (if I am even making sense). Time is the other factor which will drop IBUs.

There is an outside chance that I am visiting my buddy in Eau Claire, and he claims that there is a bar that has Surly at happy hour. If I remember, I send you a message perhaps I could sample the bitter brew.

Cheers.

 

[Hartwa]

I ended up dumping that nut brown. Reducing the carbonation did not help remove the bad taste.

The heinenken clone I made turned out great. First time I got a lager to work...using a starter and yeast nutrient did the trick.

Thanks for the help and appreciate the spreadsheet. My email is [email protected]

 

[cactusgarrett]

Aside from dumping the entire batch, it seems like your processes were (are) in line. I know you're working with a recipe and software, but I'm wondering if the balance of the recipe is off in the first place. A shift in OG can affect the utilization and perception of bitterness, as everyone's already waxed on about. Check this out and see if your beer matches somewhat with the target recipe.

 

[Scandalous]

Sent the kegging/pressure chart. Cheers, Jeff Scanlan

 

[Hartwa]

Got it...thanks

 

[JDFlow]

Just started fermenting my first lager last night and it sounds like I did it all wrong. Pitched 1 smack pack of 2206 into a 3 gallon 1.060 batch at 68*. Had the fermentation chamber cooled at 64*. Put the fermenter directly into the chamber. This morning there was airlock activity, so slowly throughout the course of the day I ramped the chember down to 54. Seems to still be fermenting as there is bubbling and a small layer of krausen forming. Hope it doesn't fall short of my expected fg considering the lack of yeast.

 

[osagedr]

Hi All...

This is my 1st post on this site.

I have been home brewing all grain for a couple of years. I have little difficulty brewing ales... I have tried a few lagers with no luck.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

 

[JDFlow]

Just started fermenting my first lager last night and it sounds like I did it all wrong. Pitched 1 smack pack of 2206 into a 3 gallon 1.060 batch at 68*. Had the fermentation chamber cooled at 64*. Put the fermenter directly into the chamber. This morning there was airlock activity, so slowly throughout the course of the day I ramped the chember down to 54. Seems to still be fermenting as there is bubbling and a small layer of krausen forming. Hope it doesn't fall short of my expected fg considering the lack of yeast.

Maybe I didn't do it all wrong... 3 days later and there's still a lot of yeast and airlock activity at 54*!

 

[JDFlow]

Airlock stopped bubbling after a vigorous 5 day fermentation. There's still some yeast movement though. The krausen on this thing looks like a 1/2 inch of pond scum. Is that normal?

 

[Hartwa]

I thought that I would update my post from a few years ago...

No issues getting lagers to ferment....starters are the key.

Figured out my problem with dark ales...my water profile is attached. When I plug my profile into bru n water with 7 lbs 2 row, 1 lbs 80° and 1 lbs 120°. It says my mash is too acidic. When you have too acidic of a mash you do not get a lot dextrins in the wort....more of just an alcohol taste in the beer from the fermentable sugars.

However...when I use EZ water...it says that my pH should be fine. Any know why this is?

Did an experiment with a Heineken clone....sometimes my lighter beers also turn out with out any malty flavor.

Mashed one at 153 and one at 158. Tested the pH on the 153 batch with a yokogawa PH82 and it was 5.15 at mash temp...the pH meter has temperature compensation for the electrode so my room temp pH would not +0.35. Just the equilibrium shift would bring my pH up at room temp. SO....I think my pH on these Heiney clones might also be a little low sometimes....making a malky flavor difficult to achieve.

The 153 batch....has kind of a strong alcohol taste...little malt flavor.
The 158 batch is excellent...

My water is low in Calcium. I want to add some on my next batch of brew for these Heineken clones but It will lower my pH more....should I add a bit of calcium and some picking lime... Although Bru N water is saying my pH is fine....I think that it is on the acid side for these Heineken clones...preventing my from getting any dextrins at 150. 150 is the mash temp the recipe calls for and what I always used to mash at.

Any suggestions?

Hartwa....