Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil

[TANSTAAFB]

Why not just use the grain tube with the bag and let it drip? The part I hate the most about BIAB is squeezing the damn bag! I love the idea of using a bag with the M&B for easy clean up but I can't imagine using a collander and kitchen gloves when you have an elegant solution engineered right into the design. Maybe a weighted plate or something to press a little on the grain bag inside the tube?

 

[owmatooth]

I did my first half a dozen brews with the grain tube, this is my first without- and there is way more room for circulation with just the bag and no tube.

 

[mhochman]

Why not just use the grain tube with the bag and let it drip? The part I hate the most about BIAB is squeezing the damn bag! I love the idea of using a bag with the M&B for easy clean up but I can't imagine using a collander and kitchen gloves when you have an elegant solution engineered right into the design. Maybe a weighted plate or something to press a little on the grain bag inside the tube?

That's exactly what I keep thinking. The bag for controlling the grains, the basket for allowing a sparge and easy drip. Best of both worlds.

 

[Weezy]

That's why I said SLOWLY!

You will be surprised, as I was. The sparge water poured 3-4 ounces at a time will nicely sparge through the bag and through the grain.

I thought the same til I tried it. Yes it does appear that a pour over will be a total fail....please try it?

While some water may escape the grain, most of the water will nicely trickle thru and be an effective sparge. Topping up the kettle with clean water is an efficiency killer!

Try it please, I was shocked how well it works....a little bit of patience is the key.

I don't think it's worth chasing that few percent of efficiency imho. But each to his own.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I don't think it's worth chasing that few percent of efficiency imho. But each to his own.

To each their own I agree. With a grain bag sitting above the kettle, it's really very little effort to pour sparge water through the bag vs adding water directly to the kettle. In some instances, depending on how undersized your kettle is, the increase in efficiency can be substantial.

I'm no fan of chasing efficiency either, but in this particular example, pouring thru the grain bs pouring water directly in the kettle is about the same work IME....

 

[owmatooth]

I will be trying this on Friday. As long as I'm pouring hot water in, it really isn't any difference in effort. Suppose I should be adding 150-160 degree water, or can it be hotter. what happens if you sparge with 200 degree water assuming I'm adding about a gallon to top up prior to the boil?

 

[wilserbrewer]

I will be trying this on Friday. As long as I'm pouring hot water in, it really isn't any difference in effort. Suppose I should be adding 150-160 degree water, or can it be hotter. what happens if you sparge with 200 degree water assuming I'm adding about a gallon to top up prior to the boil?

I wouldn't heat the water too hot, sparge water at 200 COULD bring the grain temp above 170 yada yada tannin extraction. My main reason is 200 is damn hot and can be dangerous to handle or spill and can burn you...

I would sparge with 160 - 170 if you want to save time getting to a boil, if your not in a hurry, room temp water is fine and will also cool your bag down for easier handling. Is saving 10 minutes coming to boil worth the added effort of preheating the sparge water....likely not as I'm lazy lol.

 

[mhochman]

if your not in a hurry, room temp water is fine and will also cool your bag down for easier handling.

I had no idea this was a thing. I always though sparge water had to be hot. Not to drift the thread, but I find that interesting.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I had no idea this was a thing. I always though sparge water had to be hot. Not to drift the thread, but I find that interesting.

Well respected Kai Troester aka Braukaiser busted this myth here....

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/

 

[mhochman]

Well respected Kai Troester aka Braukaiser busted this myth here....

http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2009/05/12/cold-water-sparging/

Thanks for the link. Very interesting. While I will likely still heat my sparge water, it's good to know that I don't need to obsess over hitting and maintaining a specific temp.

 

[Weezy]

Temp doesn't matter... Just pH. Should we worry about pH getting too high with a pour over? I guess just don't use too much sparge water?

 

[bleme]

Temp doesn't matter... Just pH. Should we worry about pH getting too high with a pour over? I guess just don't use too much sparge water?

If it was sitting in that water for a while, pH would be a factor. Pouring over is just rinsing off the sugars and pH doesn't matter.

Since I AM one of those efficiency chasers, I squeeze the bag, pour over the water, then squeeze again. I usually hit between 85-91%.

 

[mhochman]

Anyone have a link to a specific grainbag/BIAB bag that would work with the (not instead of) the grain cylinder for the mash & boil.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Sorry doublepost

 

[wilserbrewer]

Anyone have a link to a specific grainbag/BIAB bag that would work with the (not instead of) the grain cylinder for the mash & boil.

I made the bag for Owmatooth shown in post 234. The tricky part in making a bag for the inner basket is fastening the bag to the basket and still having handy access to the basket lifting hardware. One option is to fit the bag over the top of the outer vessel, then when removing the bag, just gather the top and move it out of the way...then once the basket is secure to the base vessel open the bag and fold it down over the outside of the basket for sparging.

Post a couple pics of the basket and I'd be glad to take a look and figure out possibilities.

 

[owmatooth]

if the bag is in the basket, and sitting above the main vessel, why would you need to reopen it for sparging? I'd just leave it drawn closed to hold the grains and pour the water over the bag. The exact same size bag you made me would work just as well with the basket or without.

and since the basket has solid sides and only a stainless mesh on the bottom, the water wouldn't run around the sides like it does in a collander, it would have nowhere to go but through the bag and out the bottom.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Ok, that works for me. Some like to pour the sparge water directly on the grain, not much difference Ime

 

[hausofstrauss]

Ok, I said I was working on an experiment. With all the discussion on temperature control, I ran an experiment on 4 different methods of insulation and measured the temperature losses.

At the risk of double posting and also hijacking this thread, here is the thread here showing the results:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7998998

links to the full results are also in that post.

 

[scottibones]

Efficiency by the numbers. The volumes were all correct my boil off rate has gone up to 1 gallon an hour from .5 gallons due to better electrical delivery.

Pre boil expected 1.062 actual 1.061

Post boil expected 1.074 actual 1.074

With volumes lost at various stages my brewhouse efficiency is 79 percent.

I use the temperature mash single step profile in Beersmith. These numbers are the result of me manipulating the heating elements to maintain no more than a 3 degree swing.

 

[hausofstrauss]

These numbers are the result of me manipulating the heating elements to maintain no more than a 3 degree swing.

IGNORE my previous comments if you saw them. I was asking about your modifications, but it appears that I've somehow missed a lot of posts. I'll go back and catch up.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

I REALLY hope they come out with a GenII version that fixes the hysterisis issue and moves the reset somewhere more accessible. What other changes would y'all like to see? Maybe they'll pay attention!
Oh, and keep the $300 price point!

 

[owmatooth]

I'm on my 8th biab with this thing and other than taking a bit longer than i'd love to heat the water, I'm happy with it for it's simplicity. I wrapped a patio cushion around it during the mash and only had the heater come on once after dropping from 158 to 152. the dough in doesn't lose as much heat as I thought it might, but for those of us that are not as peticular about exacting the brewing process, It's a phenomenal unit. those trying to get much more exact, I would think you could devise an electric system at equal or lower cost that would give you greater control. But i love this for its simplicity and the beer hasn't suffered for any hysterisis hysteria.

 

[augiedoggy]

That's why I said SLOWLY!

You will be surprised, as I was. The sparge water poured 3-4 ounces at a time will nicely sparge through the bag and through the grain.

I thought the same til I tried it. Yes it does appear that a pour over will be a total fail....please try it?

While some water may escape the grain, most of the water will nicely trickle thru and be an effective sparge. Topping up the kettle with clean water is an efficiency killer!

Try it please, I was shocked how well it works....a little bit of patience is the key.

I think this is why I get such high efficiencies myself with my brewing setup without any stuck mash issues. The key is lower flow speed not more as so many strive for. I use pwm speed controllers with dc pumps to achieve flow as little as 1/2 gallon per minute if needed. lower flow stops the channeling.

 

[Vabeer]

Had my best brew day yet with the M&B. I used a 5 gallon nylon paint strainer bag inside the mash tube. It fit well with a few binder clips to hold it in place. Saison recipe with a 14.5 lb grain bill. If you use a bag, make sure you remove the mash tube handle before pulling the bag out - it will snag if you don't. Grain bed drained great, clearest wort I've had so far. Makes it much easier to empty and clean the mash tube. Also, if anyone is having problems repeated E4 errors for no apparent reason, Bill at Williams Brewing sent me an new thermostat which has a 5-degree higher trip setting. No E4's this time.

 

[mpolybius]

Also, if anyone is having problems repeated E4 errors for no apparent reason, Bill at Williams Brewing sent me an new thermostat which has a 5-degree higher trip setting. No E4's this time.

Hey, how difficult was it to install the new thermostat? I had an issue with the E4 my last time, likely due to too fine a crush and Bill offered to send me one as well. I said I would just give it a try with a coarser setting since my first two batches went off without a hitch but this might be an option in the future if it keeps happening.

 

[Vabeer]

Hey, how difficult was it to install the new thermostat? I had an issue with the E4 my last time, likely due to too fine a crush and Bill offered to send me one as well. I said I would just give it a try with a coarser setting since my first two batches went off without a hitch but this might be an option in the future if it keeps happening.

It was pretty basic, and I'm not skilled. You can install it with a good phillips screwdriver. You flip the M&B upside down and take off the bottom panel -- the thermostat sits under the reset rod. The rod and the thermo are attached to the bottom of the kettle with two long phillips bolts. The wires are attached by two short phillips bolts. Remove the bolts, disconnect the wires, put down a new dab of thermal grease (included) and reverse the process to install the new one. The grease is white so its easy to see where it goes. Use a good screwdriver that won't slip. The bolts holding the wires are pretty tight so you'll need to use a good bit of torque while holding the tab with your fingers. Good luck!

 

[mcgimpkins]

What is the minimum size that you can do? Can you do 1 or 2 gallon batches on this system?

 

[mpolybius]

What is the minimum size that you can do? Can you do 1 or 2 gallon batches on this system?

On their site under the Q&A section they recommend nothing smaller than 2.5 gallon batches.

 

[bigern26]

Do you have to use a bag with these? I am looking to get one.

 

[mhochman]

Do you have to use a bag with these? I am looking to get one.

You do not. Some people are, but it is not necessary.

 

[bigern26]

You do not. Some people are, but it is not necessary.

Thanks

 

[owmatooth]

just got the email for robobrew from williams. at $499 looks like nearly the same vessel with all the upgrades we've been discussing. oh well, good to be a guinea pig sometimes.

 

[bford]

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/KEG-KING-ROBOBREW-P4338.aspx

Looks pretty sweet.

 

[mhochman]

Robo brew is single wall. Temp is also set to 5-degree for adjustments. Both pieces of information taken from the Q&A on the product page.

 

[mhochman]

I like the price point of the M&B, but also I like the features of the robobrew. I may start a thread that compares the two units. I'll link here if I do.

 

[mhochman]

I created the comparison thread:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=8015229#post8015229

 

[Blackmuse]

just got the email for robobrew from williams. at $499 looks like nearly the same vessel with all the upgrades we've been discussing. oh well, good to be a guinea pig sometimes.

I just read this entire thread, thinking the whole time "Surely, these guys must have seen the robobrew!" Must be newer than I thought. The guy in one of their videos runs you through the three models they've made/improved upon. He compares the new model to a slightly older model w/o the pump etc. and mentions the perks of the older models simplicity - no pump to clean and maintain. lol

I'm itching to get the Mash and Boil (I want to keep it simple as I find that the more steps/equipment I add the less consistent my beers are). I think that the Mash & Boil will help bring me back to the basics and the simplicity I used to once enjoy. The only thing I'm worried about is the E4 code that seems pretty common...

I suppose I'll go peak at the comparison thread that was recently started just for some more reading

BTW - The sleeping bag has NEVER let me down! Best wrap I've ever used - sleeping bag around the kettle and a hoody over the lid. I use bungie cords to hold the sleeping bag in place.

 

[owmatooth]

The only thing I'm worried about is the E4 code that seems pretty common...

I've done about 8 5 gal batches on my mash and boil, and the only time i got the E4 code is when i left it unattended and had a massive boil over. I use it for biab with a wilserbrewer bag and am happy with the mash and boil. The robobrew would be better for a non-biab all grain, but I don't see a huge upside for biab. I definately strive to keep it simple and try not to sweat the small stuff. Works great for me.

 

[mhochman]

I just ordered the RoboBrew with pump. $479 from Williams. Looking forward to reporting back while incorporating some of the advice picked up here.

 

[mhochman]

*(Sorry for the cross post with the comparison thread. I'm not sure everyone is following that thread in addition to this one).

I brewed my first batch on the Robobrew on Thursday. The session took longer than I expected (almost 5 hours), but I assume it will speed up as I get more familiar with the equipment. The process went very smoothly and I hit my numbers absolutely perfectly, both pre and post boil. The false bottom that goes in place for the boil did an excellent job keeping most of the trub from getting into the fermenter, and clean up was as easy as a spray nozzle and a little 1-step.

There were a few little things that will either be easy to adjust or remain minor annoyances, but for now I am very happy with the purchase. I'll write a more detailed review after my second batch (hopefully next week), but in the meantime, if anyone has any questions, I'm happy to help.