Bray's One Month Mead

[loveofrose]

I have a different approach from most folks on being challenged. I always try to take it as a challenge to better my understanding of things and myself as a person. I think getting defensive on principal helps no one. You really needs to try to think like the opposite view and understand what they are trying to communicate.

I’ve spent a few days reading all available information about sulfites. Including scientific resources such as PubMed and Googling “Sulfite Allergy Death”. I rarely use sulfites yet have no problem with them. For those of you who have read my post against them years ago, I later discovered my problem was with a particular yeast ester, not sulfites after side by side testing.

The only recorded sulfite deaths are associated with a particular restaurant that coated potatoes in powdered sulfites and served them to folks with asthma back in 1985. Honestly, it’s not really understood how those unfortunate folks died. After emailing a few researchers, probable cause of death was due to toxic levels of dosing rather rather than allergy issues. As in most science, mole hills become mountains to secure funding.

What is clear is that sulfite sensitivity (not allergy or at least not a classical allergy response) exist and no one has a ****ing clue how it happens. Absolutely doesn’t make it any less real or less a PITA. Like everything in science, not understanding it doesn’t mean non-existence. It just means we don’t know everything. As if that was a surprise.

In summary, I take it back. There is a 0.01-0.25% of the population that has a various level of sensitivity to sulfites. You guys shouldn’t drink anything because all brewed beverages have a baseline level of sulfites from yeast alcohol productions. You should also avoid dried fruit, bread, and any fruit beverage produced. It’s all sulfited. Even if you make everything yourself, you may still have issues because yeast make sulfites naturally (EC1118 makes 50 ppm during normal fermentation). I feel for you folks. It’s a hard sensitivity to get around.

 

[LittleRiver]

Thanks again Bray for all you have done for mead makers.

I consider the discussion of sulfite allergies to be sufficiently covered, so hopefully this thread can get back to discussing how to make great mead in short amounts of time.

That said, this thread will be visible in searches for many years to come, so I think it is important to have complete information available for those who come across this thread when searching for info on sulfite allergy/sensitivity.

...The only recorded sulfite deaths are associated with a particular restaurant that coated potatoes in powdered sulfites and served them to folks with asthma back in 1985....

It is true that potato related deaths have occurred, but that is not the whole story. Sulfite related deaths have occurred from ingesting potatoes, wine, and salad (at restaurants). At least one death has occurred from a home made meal of beef, noodles, and zucchini bread with raisins.

Severe reactions have been reported after ingestion of pancakes & maple syrup, wine, champagne, salad, fruit salad, and even medicines that contain sulfites.

... it’s not really understood how those unfortunate folks died. After emailing a few researchers, probable cause of death was due to toxic levels of dosing rather rather than allergy issues.

It is true that the mechanisms aren't fully understood, which is why it's difficult to test for sulfite allergy. This paper has some good info on that. In that paper you can see that toxic dosage levels were NOT the probable cause of death in the reported cases.

... various level of sensitivity to sulfites. You guys shouldn’t drink anything because all brewed beverages have a baseline level of sulfites from yeast alcohol productions. You should also avoid dried fruit, bread, and any fruit beverage produced. It’s all sulfited....

Dosage matters.

In rare cases people who are extremely sensitive may suffer fatal reactions to even small amounts (one case is reported in the link I referenced above).

Others, like myself, only suffer symptoms when a sufficient dose has been ingested. I don't know the exact amount that causes me problems, but in general I know what to do, and what not to do. Small amounts, like 1/4 tablet campden used to treat 5gal of mash water, causes me no issues.

Dosage appears to "stack", meaning that a trigger threshold may be reached by ingesting sulfites from various sources. I try to avoid ingesting too many known sources in a day.

I know there is some naturally occurring in the beer I make, but that's the reason I make it -- so I know it has not been dosed with a preservative level of sulfite.

 

[NeverDie]

Thanks again Bray for all you have done for mead makers.

I consider the discussion of sulfite allergies to be sufficiently covered, so hopefully this thread can get back to discussing how to make great mead in short amounts of time.

That said, this thread will be visible in searches for many years to come, so I think it is important to have complete information available for those who come across this thread when searching for info on sulfite allergy/sensitivity.



It is true that potato related deaths have occurred, but that is not the whole story. Sulfite related deaths have occurred from ingesting potatoes, wine, and salad (at restaurants). At least one death has occurred from a home made meal of beef, noodles, and zucchini bread with raisins.

Severe reactions have been reported after ingestion of pancakes & maple syrup, wine, champagne, salad, fruit salad, and even medicines that contain sulfites.



It is true that the mechanisms aren't fully understood, which is why it's difficult to test for sulfite allergy. This paper has some good info on that. In that paper you can see that toxic dosage levels were NOT the probable cause of death in the reported cases.



Dosage matters.

In rare cases people who are extremely sensitive may suffer fatal reactions to even small amounts (one case is reported in the link I referenced above).

Others, like myself, only suffer symptoms when a sufficient dose has been ingested. I don't know the exact amount that causes me problems, but in general I know what to do, and what not to do. Small amounts, like 1/4 tablet campden used to treat 5gal of mash water, causes me no issues.

Dosage appears to "stack", meaning that a trigger threshold may be reached by ingesting sulfites from various sources. I try to avoid ingesting too many known sources in a day.

I know there is some naturally occurring in the beer I make, but that's the reason I make it -- so I know it has not been dosed with a preservative level of sulfite.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least some commercial vendors use higher amounts than necessary just to be absolutely sure nothing grows in their mead. It's not clear whether anyone even checks on them, so they could be running open loop.

Is it possible to see the effects on the yeast by sulfite under a microscope?

 

[Blacksmith1]

Is it possible to see the effects on the yeast by sulfite under a microscope?

Got a microscope? Run a batch with none, drop an appropriately made sulfite solution on it and see.

 

[NeverDie]

Got a microscope? Run a batch with none, drop an appropriately made sulfite solution on it and see.

No, I'm holding back until I definitely need one. At present, not sure which brand/model would be a good one to get. Seems like it might cost around $400:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00AEJ9FJ4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Blacksmith1]

Seems to me if you could find one from a kids set at a yard sale it would do the job.

 

[NeverDie]

Seems to me if you could find one from a kids set at a yard sale it would do the job.

I decided on this one: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/microscopes-for-cell-count.662590/#post-8526755

 

[loveofrose]

I think the sensory effect is more alike than different, though in that regard Voss is considered the weakest. So, for that reason, I think it boils down to Hothead or Hornindal. At least to me, Hothead seems the most fragrant. Also, Hothead seems less finicky to me, but Hornindal seems to work OK *if* you aerate it a lot in a starter first. Hornindal flocculates the best, and that's worth something.

So, those are the trade-offs, which maybe sheds some light on the decision. At the moment I think I like Hothead the best. None of them are bad though, and I wouldn't say there's a whole lot that separates them.

Hope that helps!

Thanks for this information. I am starting a side by side batch of Wyeast 1388, Hothead and WLP002 right now to test flavor profiles in a controlled manner. I’ll report back once I have results!

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks for this information. I am starting a side by side batch of Wyeast 1388, Hothead and WLP002 right now to test flavor profiles in a controlled manner. I’ll report back once I have results!

Looking forward to hearing results! Also on speed, temperature and maybe even alcohol tollerance?

 

[kempshark]

So, I’m sure I could find most of this info in the last 149 pages or so, but figured it may be quicker just to ask.
I like sweet (or at least semi-sweet) Mead and want to make a melomel using mixed frozen berries. If I use enough honey for an OG of @ 1.150 and therefore a FG of @ 1.030, and then rest on about 2 lbs (or more if needed) of frozen mixed berries in secondary....will this finish on the sweet side based on that FG and the fact that the yeast may be about maxed out and not ferment much/any of the sugars from the berries?....of course I can always back sweeten if necessary after the secondary on the fruit, but just wanted to get some ideas/feedback from people with experience doing this already....thanks for any advice or info...

 

[NeverDie]

So, I’m sure I could find most of this info in the last 149 pages or so, but figured it may be quicker just to ask.
I like sweet (or at least semi-sweet) Mead and want to make a melomel using mixed frozen berries. If I use enough honey for an OG of @ 1.150 and therefore a FG of @ 1.030, and then rest on about 2 lbs (or more if needed) of frozen mixed berries in secondary....will this finish on the sweet side based on that FG and the fact that the yeast may be about maxed out and not ferment much/any of the sugars from the berries?....of course I can always back sweeten if necessary after the secondary on the fruit, but just wanted to get some ideas/feedback from people with experience doing this already....thanks for any advice or info...

Here's your answer: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/brays-one-month-mead/

 

[kempshark]

Here's your answer: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/brays-one-month-mead/

Thanks, I’ve read that already....I was just trying to get a little more specific to the secondary on the fruit and keeping the FG high enough for a sweet Mead outcome....figured maybe would shoot for about 14% abv....will be first try making mead for me

 

[loveofrose]

If you want the ultimate fruit mead, make this: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/berry-bomm/

 

[Miraculix]

Thanks, I’ve read that already....I was just trying to get a little more specific to the secondary on the fruit and keeping the FG high enough for a sweet Mead outcome....figured maybe would shoot for about 14% abv....will be first try making mead for me

It actually doesn't matter too much, as long as the yeast is maxed out. You can then add more sugar or honey till it matches your personal taste.

 

[kempshark]

If you want the ultimate fruit mead, make this: https://denardbrewing.com/blog/post/berry-bomm/

Thanks, somehow I missed that one before....that should be a helpful read and asset....

 

[renrutle]

I'm on my third batch of BOMM in half as many months. During the first two I began think about how to keep track of when to make the 2/3, & 1/3 sugar break nutrient additions. I had trouble inserting and removing the hydrometer (fat fingers) and the calculations with my refractometer are suspect. I did some quick calculations on the fermentation chemistry of sugar to CO2 and ethanol and realized that the CO2 produced is about 1/2 the weight of the sugars that are fermented. I should be able to detect this weight loss with my new 5 kilogram digital scale. From other sources I noted that honey is mostly sucrose and is about 90% fermentable. This coupled with a lot of information from this thread and loveofrose I came up with the following plan.

Weigh all the ingredients and equipment at the start of fermentation.
Re-weigh the fermenter every day after de-gassing the mead.
Add additional nutrients (also weighed) at the calculated 2/3, & 1/3 sugar break weights.

Initial weights in grams.

Item --------WT ---- Total
Jug ------- 1381 - 1381
Honey ------ 1630 - 3011
Water ------ 2528 - 5539
Nutrients --- 0005 - 5544 <-- I will be using this as my initial weight. I lift the airlock pior to weighing.
Airlock ----- 0038 - 5582

The yeast weight is included with the water. I didn't get a separate weight for the yeast. I think I really only need the honey weight and the final weight to make use of this process.

1630 grams (~3.6#) of honey in 1 gallon gives a SG of 1.139. (A bit more that I wanted but the HBS got a little aggressive when filling my tubs with honey.) From Dr. Denards notes, Wyeast 1388 will ferment about 120 points of this or (120/139) * 1630 = 1407 grams of the honey. At 90% fermentability this means that 1407 * 0.9 = 1266 grams of sucrose will be converted to CO2 and ethanol.

Sucrose is C12H22O11 with a molecular weight of 342.3 grams/mole
4 molecules of CO2 will be produced for each of molecule of sucrose consumed by the yeast. The molecular weight of CO2 is 44 grams per mole so 4 * 44 = 176 grams of CO2 is produced for every 342.3 grams of sucrose. 176/342.3 = 0.51

Fermenting 1266 grams of sucrose will produce 0.51 * 1226 = 651 grams of CO2.

At the 2/3 sugar break, 1/3 of the sugar has been consumed and 1/3 of the total CO2 has been produced.

1/3 * 651 = 217 grams of CO2 produced. The fermenter should weigh 217 grams less at this point.

Similarly at the 1/3 break, 2/3's of the sugar has been consumed and 2/3's of the total CO2 has been produced.

2/3 * 651 = 434 grams of CO2 produced. The fermenter should weigh 434 grams less at this point.

Caveats:
I understand that I have made a few assumptions not limited to the following.
Honey is mostly sucrose and 90% fermentable by weight.
Any monosaccharides present that are fermented will throw off my 0.51 ratio of CO2 produced. Glucose gives a ratio of 0.49.
I can remove most/all the CO2 prior to weighing. (1 volume of CO2 per gallon weighs ~7 grams)

My 6 step weighing process is as follows.

1. Turn on and tare the scale.
2. Place fermenter on scale.
3. Lift airlock.
4. Record weight.
5. Replace airlock.
6. Return fermenter to counter.

So far I find this easier than having to sanitize, insert, read, and remove my hydrometer.

Weights of fermenter for nutrient additions are:
2/3 : 5544 - 217 = 5327
1/3 : 5544 - 434 = 5110

Fermentation temp on counter is 68°F.

My data so far.

Date - Weight
02-20 - 5544
02-21 - 5523
02-22 - 5503
02-23 - out of town today
02-24 - 5416
02-25 - 5392 - getting close to first addition.
02-26 - 5368
02-27 - 5347
02-28 - 5324 - I added 3 grams of nutrients this morning.
02-28 - 5325 - After degassing and adding nutrients.
03-01 - 5296

Will update with additional weights over the next several weeks.

 

[NeverDie]

I'm on my third batch of BOMM in half as many months. During the first two I began think about how to keep track of when to make the 2/3, & 1/3 sugar break nutrient additions. I had trouble inserting and removing the hydrometer (fat fingers) and the calculations with my refractometer are suspect. I did some quick calculations on the fermentation chemistry of sugar to CO2 and ethanol and realized that the CO2 produced is about 1/2 the weight of the sugars that are fermented. I should be able to detect this weight loss with my new 5 kilogram digital scale. From other sources I noted that honey is mostly sucrose and is about 90% fermentable. This coupled with a lot of information from this thread and loveofrose I came up with the following plan.

Weigh all the ingredients and equipment at the start of fermentation.
Re-weigh the fermenter every day after de-gassing the mead.
Add additional nutrients (also weighed) at the calculated 2/3, & 1/3 sugar break weights.

Initial weights in grams.

Item --------WT ---- Total
Jug ------- 1381 - 1381
Honey ------ 1630 - 3011
Water ------ 2528 - 5539
Nutrients --- 0005 - 5544 <-- I will be using this as my initial weight. I lift the airlock pior to weighing.
Airlock ----- 0038 - 5582

The yeast weight is included with the water. I didn't get a separate weight for the yeast. I think I really only need the honey weight and the final weight to make use of this process.

1630 grams (~3.6#) of honey in 1 gallon gives a SG of 1.139. (A bit more that I wanted but the HBS got a little aggressive when filling my tubs with honey.) From Dr. Denards notes, Wyeast 1388 will ferment about 120 points of this or (120/139) * 1630 = 1407 grams of the honey. At 90% fermentability this means that 1407 * 0.9 = 1266 grams of sucrose will be converted to CO2 and ethanol.

Sucrose is C12H22O11 with a molecular weight of 342.3 grams/mole
4 molecules of CO2 will be produced for each of molecule of sucrose consumed by the yeast. The molecular weight of CO2 is 44 grams per mole so 4 * 44 = 176 grams of CO2 is produced for every 342.3 grams of sucrose. 176/342.3 = 0.51

Fermenting 1266 grams of sucrose will produce 0.51 * 1226 = 651 grams of CO2.

At the 2/3 sugar break, 1/3 of the sugar has been consumed and 1/3 of the total CO2 has been produced.

1/3 * 651 = 217 grams of CO2 produced. The fermenter should weigh 217 grams less at this point.

Similarly at the 1/3 break, 2/3's of the sugar has been consumed and 2/3's of the total CO2 has been produced.

2/3 * 651 = 434 grams of CO2 produced. The fermenter should weigh 434 grams less at this point.

Caveats:
I understand that I have made a few assumptions not limited to the following.
Honey is mostly sucrose and 90% fermentable by weight.
Any monosaccharides present that are fermented will throw off my 0.51 ratio of CO2 produced. Glucose gives a ratio of 0.49.
I can remove most/all the CO2 prior to weighing. (1 volume of CO2 per gallon weighs ~7 grams)

My 6 step weighing process is as follows.

1. Turn on and tare the scale.
2. Place fermenter on scale.
3. Lift airlock.
4. Record weight.
5. Replace airlock.
6. Return fermenter to counter.

So far I find this easier than having to sanitize, insert, read, and remove my hydrometer.

Weights of fermenter for nutrient additions are:
2/3 : 5544 - 217 = 5327
1/3 : 5544 - 434 = 5110

Fermentation temp on counter is 68°F.

My data so far.

Date - Weight
02-20 - 5544
02-21 - 5523
02-22 - 5503
02-23 - out of town today
02-24 - 5416
02-25 - 5392 - getting close to first addition.


Will update with additional weighs over the next several weeks.

Or just buy a TILT wireless hydrometer, and then you'll know in real-time what the SG is.

 

[Miraculix]

I'm on my third batch of BOMM in half as many months. During the first two I began think about how to keep track of when to make the 2/3, & 1/3 sugar break nutrient additions. I had trouble inserting and removing the hydrometer (fat fingers) and the calculations with my refractometer are suspect. I did some quick calculations on the fermentation chemistry of sugar to CO2 and ethanol and realized that the CO2 produced is about 1/2 the weight of the sugars that are fermented. I should be able to detect this weight loss with my new 5 kilogram digital scale. From other sources I noted that honey is mostly sucrose and is about 90% fermentable. This coupled with a lot of information from this thread and loveofrose I came up with the following plan.

Weigh all the ingredients and equipment at the start of fermentation.
Re-weigh the fermenter every day after de-gassing the mead.
Add additional nutrients (also weighed) at the calculated 2/3, & 1/3 sugar break weights.

Initial weights in grams.

Item --------WT ---- Total
Jug ------- 1381 - 1381
Honey ------ 1630 - 3011
Water ------ 2528 - 5539
Nutrients --- 0005 - 5544 <-- I will be using this as my initial weight. I lift the airlock pior to weighing.
Airlock ----- 0038 - 5582

The yeast weight is included with the water. I didn't get a separate weight for the yeast. I think I really only need the honey weight and the final weight to make use of this process.

1630 grams (~3.6#) of honey in 1 gallon gives a SG of 1.139. (A bit more that I wanted but the HBS got a little aggressive when filling my tubs with honey.) From Dr. Denards notes, Wyeast 1388 will ferment about 120 points of this or (120/139) * 1630 = 1407 grams of the honey. At 90% fermentability this means that 1407 * 0.9 = 1266 grams of sucrose will be converted to CO2 and ethanol.

Sucrose is C12H22O11 with a molecular weight of 342.3 grams/mole
4 molecules of CO2 will be produced for each of molecule of sucrose consumed by the yeast. The molecular weight of CO2 is 44 grams per mole so 4 * 44 = 176 grams of CO2 is produced for every 342.3 grams of sucrose. 176/342.3 = 0.51

Fermenting 1266 grams of sucrose will produce 0.51 * 1226 = 651 grams of CO2.

At the 2/3 sugar break, 1/3 of the sugar has been consumed and 1/3 of the total CO2 has been produced.

1/3 * 651 = 217 grams of CO2 produced. The fermenter should weigh 217 grams less at this point.

Similarly at the 1/3 break, 2/3's of the sugar has been consumed and 2/3's of the total CO2 has been produced.

2/3 * 651 = 434 grams of CO2 produced. The fermenter should weigh 434 grams less at this point.

Caveats:
I understand that I have made a few assumptions not limited to the following.
Honey is mostly sucrose and 90% fermentable by weight.
Any monosaccharides present that are fermented will throw off my 0.51 ratio of CO2 produced. Glucose gives a ratio of 0.49.
I can remove most/all the CO2 prior to weighing. (1 volume of CO2 per gallon weighs ~7 grams)

My 6 step weighing process is as follows.

1. Turn on and tare the scale.
2. Place fermenter on scale.
3. Lift airlock.
4. Record weight.
5. Replace airlock.
6. Return fermenter to counter.

So far I find this easier than having to sanitize, insert, read, and remove my hydrometer.

Weights of fermenter for nutrient additions are:
2/3 : 5544 - 217 = 5327
1/3 : 5544 - 434 = 5110

Fermentation temp on counter is 68°F.

My data so far.

Date - Weight
02-20 - 5544
02-21 - 5523
02-22 - 5503
02-23 - out of town today
02-24 - 5416
02-25 - 5392 - getting close to first addition.


Will update with additional weighs over the next several weeks.

Honey is actually almost 100% fermentable. But you also have to account for the fact that honey contains water as well!

 

[renrutle]

Or just buy a TILT wireless hydrometer, and then you'll know in real-time what the SG is.

Honey is actually almost 100% fermentable. But you also have to account for the fact that honey contains water as well!

Thank you for the comments. I am still thinking through the process and any help is appreciated.

I will look into the TILT, but at $135 it may have to wait for my b-day. DM for shipping address.

I agree that the sugars in honey are 100% fermentable but 1# of honey does not contain 1# of sugar. From my research it is 75%-90% sugar. The rest is water and other unfermentable (flavor, aroma, etc.) compounds.

I think 3.6# of honey only contains between 3.6 * 0.75 = 2.7# and 3.6 * 0.90 = 3.24# of sugar.

3.6# of sugar will produce 3.6 * 0.51 = 1.84# of CO2 but 3.6# of honey will only produce (at most) 3.24 * 0.51 = 1.65# of CO2.

 

[Miraculix]

Thank you for the comments. I am still thinking through the process and any help is appreciated.

I will look into the TILT, but at $135 it may have to wait for my b-day. DM for shipping address.

I agree that the sugars in honey are 100% fermentable but 1# of honey does not contain 1# of sugar. From my research it is 75%-90% sugar. The rest is water and other unfermentable (flavor, aroma, etc.) compounds.

I think 3.6# of honey only contains between 3.6 * 0.75 = 2.7# and 3.6 * 0.90 = 3.24# of sugar.

3.6# of sugar will produce 3.6 * 0.51 = 1.84# of CO2 but 3.6# of honey will only produce (at most) 3.24 * 0.51 = 1.65# of CO2.

Ah, I see. You are accounting for the water content when descrbing the fermentability. A bit unorthodox, but certainly makes sense in this case.

 

[NeverDie]

Thank you for the comments. I am still thinking through the process and any help is appreciated.

I will look into the TILT, but at $135 it may have to wait for my b-day. DM for shipping address.

I agree that the sugars in honey are 100% fermentable but 1# of honey does not contain 1# of sugar. From my research it is 75%-90% sugar. The rest is water and other unfermentable (flavor, aroma, etc.) compounds.

I think 3.6# of honey only contains between 3.6 * 0.75 = 2.7# and 3.6 * 0.90 = 3.24# of sugar.

3.6# of sugar will produce 3.6 * 0.51 = 1.84# of CO2 but 3.6# of honey will only produce (at most) 3.24 * 0.51 = 1.65# of CO2.

From what I've read, the kind of sugar in any particular honey may also vary. That's why some honey's don't crystalize and others do. Not sure if that affects your calcs or not.

 

[renrutle]

Ah, I see. You are accounting for the water content when descrbing the fermentability. A bit unorthodox, but certainly makes sense in this case.

While writing my previous reply I did think about my use of the word fermentability. And yes I believe I am using it in a different way. We usually use it as you did to indicate what percentage of the sugar added is fermentable. I used it to indicate what percent of the mass added is 100% fermentable. An important clarification. Thanks.

 

[renrutle]

From what I've read, the kind of sugar in any particular honey may also vary. That's why some honey's don't crystalize and others do. Not sure if that affects your calcs or not.

I am still thinking through this issue. I know I made several assumptions including the types of sugar in the honey. (Sucrose, glucose, fructose) The composition will effect my calculations some. I think the biggest one is the water content. 75% - 90% is a big range. My main purpose of this "project" was to come up with an easier way to determine when to make the nutrient additions. Or at least to get close without having to use my hydrometer. I guess I will have to make several more batches and keep good notes.

 

[NeverDie]

I am still thinking through this issue. I know I made several assumptions including the types of sugar in the honey. (Sucrose, glucose, fructose) The composition will effect my calculations some. I think the biggest one is the water content. 75% - 90% is a big range. My main purpose of this "project" was to come up with an easier way to determine when to make the nutrient additions. Or at least to get close without having to use my hydrometer. I guess I will have to make several more batches and keep good notes.

I hope you stick with it! From what I've read, the refractometers that are made for measuring the sugar content of honey can also tell you the water content of the honey. Then rather than assuming, you'd just measure the water content of whichever honey you are using.

 

[loveofrose]

I think the biggest problem is accounting for the CO2 that is dissolved into solution. As anyone will tell you, you cannot remove it all.

 

[Miraculix]

Just sampled my mangrove Jack California lager mead. The aim was to provide enough hungry to let it ferment till the yeast gives up and still have residual sweetness for a semi dry mead. I learned two things. I used the tosna 3.0 schedule.

1. 1.013 is still very sweet for my taste, hopefully the gravity will drop further.

2. It tastes hot (again). No more experiments. Next mead will be fermented dry, stabilised and backsweetened at 11 to 12 % abv.

I found some oak sticks online. I think I will get the mead into glass when finished and age it there a bit on oak before botteling.

The seller says that one needs at least 15 sticks for one gallon and that they are from wood from the south Balkan. Anybody got an idea about what to expect from those and if the recommendations regarding the amount per gallon seem to be all right?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B079SNVRXW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[Maylar]

Typically 3 oz of oak per 5 gallons for mead, those sticks look like way too much. I think I'd avoid those for mead. Cubes or spirals are good (avoid chips). Balkan oak? Uh huh. Wine oaks are usually American, Hungarian, or French. They're all different in what they bring to the party.

 

[Miraculix]

Typically 3 oz of oak per 5 gallons for mead, those sticks look like way too much. I think I'd avoid those for mead. Cubes or spirals are good (avoid chips). Balkan oak? Uh huh. Wine oaks are usually American, Hungarian, or French. They're all different in what they bring to the party.

Hungary is close to the balkan region. The sticks are aproximately 1cmx1cmx14cm. I cannot get hold of Oak cubes or spirals here (at least not for a reasonable price) so I am tempted to try those sticks out. Everything else is just chips here, which I won't try. It is only 10 quid for 15 sticks.

 

[NeverDie]

The OP recipe refers to the "No heat method." So, I gather that the water isn't sterilized through boiling or autoclaving and then allowed to cool before using it? It's just used as-is? i.e. the theory is that 100 billion yeast cells pitched in a 1 gallon volume will "win" regardless?

 

[loveofrose]

Just sampled my mangrove Jack California lager mead. The aim was to provide enough hungry to let it ferment till the yeast gives up and still have residual sweetness for a semi dry mead. I learned two things. I used the tosna 3.0 schedule.

1. 1.013 is still very sweet for my taste, hopefully the gravity will drop further.

2. It tastes hot (again). No more experiments. Next mead will be fermented dry, stabilised and backsweetened at 11 to 12 % abv.

I found some oak sticks online. I think I will get the mead into glass when finished and age it there a bit on oak before botteling.

The seller says that one needs at least 15 sticks for one gallon and that they are from wood from the south Balkan. Anybody got an idea about what to expect from those and if the recommendations regarding the amount per gallon seem to be all right?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B079SNVRXW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

In general, it goes (best to worse) Barrel, thick staves, xoaker, cubes, thin staves (what you are looking at), and the non-advisable chips.

It is best to use low doses of oak so that you get maximal extraction of the full flavor profile.

 

[loveofrose]

The OP recipe refers to the "No heat method." So, I gather that the water isn't sterilized through boiling or autoclaving and then allowed to cool before using it? It's just used as-is? i.e. the theory is that 100 billion yeast cells pitched in a 1 gallon volume will "win" regardless?

Bottled spring water is sterile from the factory. I do use the no heat method as honey harbors very little in the way of contamination and I don’t wish to lose the wonderful volatile esters.

 

[renrutle]

I think the biggest problem is accounting for the CO2 that is dissolved into solution. As anyone will tell you, you cannot remove it all.

I did some additional research on this issue. The amount of CO2 dissolved in solution can be calculated using Henry's law. It relates the amount of gas dissolved in a liquid to the partial pressure of the gas above the surface of the liquid. The carbonation charts we use to determine carbonation pressure in a keg are generated using Henry's law. Since all the air will have been pushed out of the fermenter the partial pressure of CO2 can be assumed to be the same as the atmospheric, or ~14.7 psi.

At 68°F and ~14.7 psi this gives ~0.75 volumes of CO2 in the fermenter prior to degassing. 1 gallon of CO2 weighs ~7 grams giving 7 * 0.75 = 5.25g of CO2. Shaking the fermenter for a minute or so results in a loss of only 1-2 grams of CO2.

If my previous calculations are accurate each ~5.5g of CO2 produced results in a SG drop of 1 point or 0.001.

I originally planned to make the additions at theses weights.

Weights of fermenter for nutrient additions are:
2/3 : 5544 - 217 = 5327
1/3 : 5544 - 434 = 5110

Based on this I will make my second addition at 5115 instead to account for the dissolved CO2.

 

[NeverDie]

Bottled spring water is sterile from the factory. I do use the no heat method as honey harbors very little in the way of contamination and I don’t wish to lose the wonderful volatile esters.

Since the Ozarka spring water bottles are PTFE plastic, you're using them as the fermentation vessels, aren't you? No need to clean or sanitize it beforehand. Nice!

 

[Miraculix]

In general, it goes (best to worse) Barrel, thick staves, xoaker, cubes, thin staves (what you are looking at), and the non-advisable chips.

It is best to use low doses of oak so that you get maximal extraction of the full flavor profile.

Just found cubes on eBay. What would you personally favor, light toast, medium toast or heavy toast?

I have a strong mead about 15% to 16% which is a bit hot. Tending to medium but only because I have zero experience and cannot decide....

If this helps somehow, I like strong and smoky islay whiskey and also tannin heavy and dry Spanish red wine. Not that my mead has to taste like this, but just to give you a hint on the bigger picture of what I like.

 

[loveofrose]

Just found cubes on eBay. What would you personally favor, light toast, medium toast or heavy toast?

I have a strong mead about 15% to 16% which is a bit hot. Tending to medium but only because I have zero experience and cannot decide....

If this helps somehow, I like strong and smoky islay whiskey and also tannin heavy and dry Spanish red wine. Not that my mead has to taste like this, but just to give you a hint on the bigger picture of what I like.

It would depend on the honey you used, but my go to is American Medium Plus toast. It is most likely to balance the alcohol heat. This is what I use in barrels, xoakers and cubes.

Sometimes I use Hungarian if I really want to improve body. I prefer French for cysers.

 

[loveofrose]

I did some additional research on this issue. The amount of CO2 dissolved in solution can be calculated using Henry's law. It relates the amount of gas dissolved in a liquid to the partial pressure of the gas above the surface of the liquid. The carbonation charts we use to determine carbonation pressure in a keg are generated using Henry's law. Since all the air will have been pushed out of the fermenter the partial pressure of CO2 can be assumed to be the same as the atmospheric, or ~14.7 psi.

At 68°F and ~14.7 psi this gives ~0.75 volumes of CO2 in the fermenter prior to degassing. 1 gallon of CO2 weighs ~7 grams giving 7 * 0.75 = 5.25g of CO2. Shaking the fermenter for a minute or so results in a loss of only 1-2 grams of CO2.

If my previous calculations are accurate each ~5.5g of CO2 produced results in a SG drop of 1 point or 0.001.

I originally planned to make the additions at theses weights.


Based on this I will make my second addition at 5115 instead to account for the dissolved CO2.

I suggest you compile all the calculations you’ve done here and set up an experiment in a new thread.

 

[renrutle]

I suggest you compile all the calculations you’ve done here and set up an experiment in a new thread.

I can do that.

 

[Miraculix]

It would depend on the honey you used, but my go to is American Medium Plus toast. It is most likely to balance the alcohol heat. This is what I use in barrels, xoakers and cubes.

Sometimes I use Hungarian if I really want to improve body. I prefer French for cysers.

Ok, thanks.I just bought the cubes, it is Bulgarian medium toast. I hope that the cubes will fit into my demijons

...otherwise it will stay in the bucket a bit longer....

Do you have suggestions on the time in the mead and the amount per gallon or litre? Just a rough idea?

 

[Miraculix]

On another topic, just thinking out loud...

I've read that the co2 going out of suspension "scrubs" out the volatile aromas of the honey. Therefore, the stronger the mead, the more the loss of aroma.

But what if we we stagger the honey additions, not to max out the abv, but to take as much honey as possible out of the influence of the co2 going out of solution?

Let's say we want to make a ten percent mead. If we would want to ferment it dry, we could throw in all the honey at the beginning, but then 100% of the honey would be under the influence of 100% of the co2 leaving the suspension.

If we would split The honey into two additions, meaning letting 50% of the honey completely ferment dry before adding the other 50%, it would mean that only half of the honey would be under the influence of the full amount of co2 leaving the liquid, the second half of the honey would only see half of the co2. We could devide the additions even further to maximize the effect.

Therefore, less aroma loss. Does this make sense? I guess it would be a relatively easy to handle experiment to find out if this is true.

 

[loveofrose]

I suggest 4 cubes per gallon for at least 1 month. Sometimes 3-4 months is required if you really want a lot of oak.