boil bentonite?

[NeverDie]

I'm seeing some instructions that say to boil bentonite in a pint of water and later add some of the slurry to the must. Other instructions say to mix the bentonite into 140F water.

It is, after all, a kind of clay dirt, so I can maybe see why boiling it would be a good idea to perhaps sanitize it a bit?

Does it make any difference? What's the ideal amount to add to mead? Is it any different than for wine? How much is too much? Is it the same amount whether you add it prior to fermentation as it is if you add it post fermentation?

In either case, how much stirring does it need to work effectively?

If post fermentation, generally how long is the wait time for it to settle out?

Also, I've read that bentonite works better if the must is cold. So, if post fermentation, how cold should I refrigerate the must to? All the way to 36F?

Gearing up to try this soon both on new fermentations and on post-fermentation experiments.

 

[Maylar]

You can use it one of two ways, dry in primary (preferred) or as a slurry afterward.

Morewine dot com has some instructions, and so does ECKraus : https://eckraus.com/wine-making-bentonite/

I'll add that you should put the water in your blender first, then slowly add the clay and after a minute or so pour the slurry into another container and let it swell up for a while. If you put the clay in the blender first it'll make cleaning it out really hard (DAMHIK).

 

[NeverDie]

You can use it one of two ways, dry in primary (preferred) or as a slurry afterward.

Morewine dot com has some instructions, and so does ECKraus : https://eckraus.com/wine-making-bentonite/

I'll add that you should put the water in your blender first, then slowly add the clay and after a minute or so pour the slurry into another container and let it swell up for a while. If you put the clay in the blender first it'll make cleaning it out really hard (DAMHIK).

Is a blender really needed or would a stir plate be enough?

 

[Maylar]

Is a blender really needed or would a stir plate be enough?

A stir plate would stop in seconds. The slurry is thick.

 

[NeverDie]

A stir plate would stop in seconds. The slurry is thick.

I'll try it on my Maelstrom and report back. It might be able to handle it.

Still wondering though: boil or 140F or something else?

 

[NeverDie]

Reporting back: Maeltrom had no problem stirring 1 TSP bentonite in 75ml of water.

There are some hard black bits that I don't think will ever decompose further, but the grey stuff seemed to "dissolve" (if that's the right term for it) and become suspended in solution just fine.

 

[NeverDie]

Alrighty then: I added the bentonite to my Fresco cyser, which is the most cloudy/hazy thing I have at the moment. Fingers crossed.

 

[NeverDie]

Alrighty then: I added the bentonite to my Fresco cyser, which is the most cloudy/hazy thing I have at the moment. Fingers crossed.

Wow! In just 2.5 hours, the bentonite already made a huge improverment. I followed the EC Kraus suggestion of chilling the mead prior to adding the bentonite, so maybe that's why.

 

[NeverDie]

Report back: that bentonite is amazing. I let it settle over night, and now the top 75% of my cyser is 100% clear with no haze. Unfortunately, the bottom 25% is a thick cloud of grey bentonite. So, I guess that's the trade-off: give up 25% of your mead/cyser but get super clarity on the remaining part.

Maybe (?) the bentonite will settle more so that there's less of a sacrificial component.

 

[NeverDie]

Reporting back to answer my own question: boiling doesn't seem to be necessary. I've been using 140F water instead, and I'm not even sure whether that is necessary either. I stir it for 2 minutes on the stir plate at 140F, then let it set for an hour, then stir it up again before adding it to the mead.

The bentonite seems to work more or less instantly. It just needs 2 or 3 hours to settle afterward, and then the top portion of the mead is crystal clear.

I'm going to half the amount of bentonite and clear some more meads to see whether the smaller amount is sufficient and whether it produces less wasted mead when racking. I'm guessing (?) that I can scale the amount of bentonite to the amount of haze/cloudiness in the mead that needs to be cleared, so that a mead with just a small amount of haze can perhaps be cleared with very little bentonite. So, I'll explore that as well.

The little black specs that I mentioned above appear to be volcanic glass, and so nothing is going to dissolve them. They are just impurities in the bentonite mix that ideally would not be there.

Anyway, this seems to be a bit of a monolog, so this may be my last post on this topic. I guess this all is probably old news to everyone.

 

[bob1852]

Some people claim they can taste bentonite when it's used post-fermentation. Not sure that I can....but I still opt for SuperKleer in the secondary. Have you tried that stuff yet? It can take a few days or even weeks to clear, but it doesn't produce as much lees as bentonite which is why I opt for bentonite in the primary and SuperKleer post-fermentation (after backsweetening, if applicable).

 

[RPh_Guy]

I was subscribed and enjoying your reports.

Does fining for clarity ever positively impact flavor? It's easy to imagine that bentonite in primary might have beneficial effects on flavor by reducing dissolved CO2.

 

[NeverDie]

Some people claim they can taste bentonite when it's used post-fermentation. Not sure that I can....but I still opt for SuperKleer in the secondary. Have you tried that stuff yet? It can take a few days or even weeks to clear, but it doesn't produce as much lees as bentonite which is why I opt for bentonite in the primary and SuperKleer post-fermentation (after backsweetening, if applicable).

I haven't yet tried SuperKleer. Maylar wrote that it has a very medicinal taste unless you let every molecule of it settle out, which, like you, he said can take weeks.

I know that bentonite is supposedly not intended to stop a fermentation, but if it's at the very long trailing tail end, I wonder whether it will anyway as long as it's racked off? The mead is crystal clear, and so with no suspended yeasts, I would think that's likely the absolute end of the fermentation. I plan to check for that. It might be a nice bonus from using bentonite in secondary.

 

[Maylar]

I was subscribed and enjoying your reports.

Does fining for clarity ever positively impact flavor? It's easy to imagine that bentonite in primary might have beneficial effects on flavor by reducing dissolved CO2.

As I think I mentioned in another post somewhere, finings do have an impact. I guess it's a lesser-of-evils kinda decision.

Example, if you read about gelatin it works in the presence of tannin and will reduce tannin. Maybe OK for red wine but on stuff that I'll be adding tannin to, that seems counter productive.

The first time I used SuperKleer I didn't let it precipitate out long enough before racking. It was on an orange BOMM and it took all the orange taste from the mead and left an icky medicinal taste behind. Cold crashing for 2 more weeks and another racking made that go away, but the mead still sucked. I would use it again if I had to, armed with knowledge on how to use it.

And as AZ_IPA said, some people report a "muddy" taste with bentonite when used in secondary. If that's true, it's outside my taste threshold.

And finally, pectic enzyme - used with certain fruit brews. It's all I use with my ciders and they're always brilliantly clear. If it has any effect on taste I wouldn't know since I've used it from day 1. But there's probably someone out there who would say otherwise.

 

[NeverDie]

And as AZ_IPA said, some people report a "muddy" taste with bentonite when used in secondary. If that's true, it's outside my taste threshold.

I'll let you know. Given that it actually is a clay mud of sorts, it sounds possible if not settled out and removed by racking. At least visually though it seems to settle within just 2 to 3 hours.

 

[NeverDie]

Reporting back: I sampled the mead which I treated with bentonite earlier this morning, and there's no muddy or clay taste to it. I sampled off the top, not near the bottom where the bentonite had settled.

For a full racking I'm going to try racking through a simple chemex coffee filter and see if that picks up any of the drips and drabs of bentonite that might otherwise sneak by toward the end of the racking.

 

[CKuhns]

I have tried bentonite and jyst not happy with it, as stated above lots of lees and definately could taste it. I use KC Super Kleer pretty regularly along with cold crashing snd some time. 5 days or so. Never have had a medicinal flavor i could detect. Have not used it on a JAOM. they tend to clear on their own just with cold crashing pretty well. Recently have been filtering and although in the past have been happy with KC Super Kleer am very happy with the filters I use.

 

[NeverDie]

am very happy with the filters I use.

Which filters do you use?

 

[Yooper]

Reporting back: I sampled the mead which I treated with bentonite earlier this morning, and there's no muddy or clay taste to it. I sampled off the top, not near the bottom where the bentonite had settled.

For a full racking I'm going to try racking through a simple chemex coffee filter and see if that picks up any of the drips and drabs of bentonite that might otherwise sneak by toward the end of the racking.

When racking, I would not rack through anything that could potentially oxidize the mead at this point. Time will allow everything to settle, and then rack off of the lees.

 

[CKuhns]

Which filters do you use?

I use a KLR gravity fed system 5 and 1 micron filters. Your mead or cider must be somewhat clear already or they plug up pretty quickly.

https://klrfilter.com

Southern Homebrew in New Smyrna Beach, Florida carries them.
www.southernhomebrew.com/vinbritefilter.html

 

[NeverDie]

When racking, I would not rack through anything that could potentially oxidize the mead at this point. Time will allow everything to settle, and then rack off of the lees.

So that I'll know in case it happens (for whatever reason), what does oxidation taste like?

Would adding an anti-oxidant first adequately protect against it? I think this may (?) be the reason why Vitamin C is so often added to juices that you can find at the grocery store.

 

[Yooper]

So that I'll know in case it happens (for whatever reason), what does oxidation taste like?

Would adding an anti-oxidant first adequately protect against it? I think this may (?) be the reason why Vitamin C is so often added to juices that you can find at the grocery store.

Not really- I mean sulfites help but you really don't want to have any air contact at this point. If you want to filter, you'd really need to do it right with a plate filter setup (and the mead has to be pretty clear first, or the filters will clog up right away).

 

[NeverDie]

What happens if you add the bentonite in primary right at the very beginning rather than waiting until after high krausen? From a convenience standpoint, it would be easiest to add it then. Any reason not to?

 

[Maylar]

Conventional wisdom is that you don't want to add anything that might reduce yeast count until after the growth phase has completed. Timing isn't critical, you can add it when you do a nutrient addition or whatever.

If you get in bed with the most modern protocols you'll be aerating and stirring the lees anyway. Besides, it's cool to watch the foamup (leave headspace!).

 

[Maylar]

I racked my Fresco cyser to secondary today. I started with 2 gallons of cider plus enough honey to reach 1.096 OG. Didn't take a gravity reading but I know it's done. Got 2 gallon carboys that are cloudy even after bentonite in primary. There was pectic enzyme too, maybe they conflict with each other? Cold crashing in my fridge right now, let's see if it helps.

 

[NeverDie]

I racked my Fresco cyser to secondary today. I started with 2 gallons of cider plus enough honey to reach 1.096 OG. Didn't take a gravity reading but I know it's done. Got 2 gallon carboys that are cloudy even after bentonite in primary. There was pectic enzyme too, maybe they conflict with each other? Cold crashing in my fridge right now, let's see if it helps.

FWIW, Bentonite in secondary quickly cleared my Fresco cyser 100%. Not even any haze remaining.

 

[bob1852]

What happens if you add the bentonite in primary right at the very beginning rather than waiting until after high krausen? From a convenience standpoint, it would be easiest to add it then. Any reason not to?

For traditionals, I add bentonite when I mix up the must.

For melomels, I add pectin enzyme along with the fruit, and wait 24 hours to add bentonite....just prior to pitching yeast.

 

[NeverDie]

Reporting back: Today I tried 1/2 TSP Bentonite across 5 different meads, and it just wasn't enough to clear them. The 1 TSP I tried previously worked great, and more or less instantly, so I guess that's about the right dosing per gallon.

 

[NeverDie]

I'm finding that racking a mead with bentonite in it to be rather challenging because the bentonite goes back into solution fairly readily, at least more than I'd like.

 

[NeverDie]

I'm finding that racking a mead with bentonite in it to be rather challenging because the bentonite goes back into solution fairly readily, at least more than I'd like.

Reporting back: Because of this I did try the Chemex coffee filter, and it did in fact remove small drips and drabs of bentonite to produce an ultra clear final racking. It is not, however, good for filtering true sludge or anything even close to that, at least not in a single pass. The more sludgy the mead from bentonite, the more diminishing returns quickly become a limiting factor, with lower yields because of more rackings and filterings required to clean it up.

So, at least to me, bentonite (and probably fining in general) is a tool of last resort. If I can find a yeast strain that both tastes good and doesn't require it, then that would be preferable. If I can't find such a unicorn, then I'll have to make bigger batches to offset the lower yields, or else become more accepting of haze/cloudiness, as does exist in even some commercial meads.

Conclusion: when it comes to personal consumption, I'll take the haze rather than the hassle. When it comes to making a mead for friends to comfortably enjoy without worries or reservations, I think that's when bentonite or similar makes sense. Otherwise it can tend to look a bit dodgy, especially to someone unfamiliar with mead or homebrewing.

 

[Maylar]

Dirty mead tastes dirty. Plan your batch size to anticipate rackings.

 

[Miraculix]

Ich think with the proper amount of calcium and the right yeast the haze shouldn't be an issue.

 

[NeverDie]

I think what I need is a tall, but narrowish tube (almost like a graduated cylinder) to better help with racking. That way, after settling, the bentonite can be kept far away, for as long as possible, from the siphon tube, and thereby minimize waste as well as the drips and drabs. Seems like that might work the best. A typical carboy is just too wide for racking purposes to have a great yield.

 

[NeverDie]

OK, so I just now ordered a 2000ml cylinder: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006UKIBKU/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_asin_title_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
and I notice that the very first of the amazon comments was that the guy uses it to decant yeast from his fermenter. So, he had essentially the same general idea.

There also exist 4000ml cylinders, but they're much pricier.

 

[Maylar]

Maybe with small batches bentonite is a poor choice. Someone already mentioned that the sediment from SuperKleer is a lot less than with bentonite, and that racking losses are therefore less. Unfortunately, it's somewhat expensive and the non resealable packs are sized for 5 gallons. I've used it by measuring out the dose with a syringe but I have no way to store the remainder.

There's also Sparkalloid, which I've never used but gets good reviews. Maybe someone can comment on what the sediment is with that.

What works for me is to make a bigger batch than what I want with the anticipation of having to rack a couple times and suffer with the losses. This 2 gallon cyser started as 2 gallons plus about a quart of honey and racked to 2 one gallon jugs. From there it'll get racked (and maybe fined) again and the headspace will accommodate backsweetening honey and oak cubes.

 

[NeverDie]

Speaking of the fresco cyser, I racked it off the bentonite this morning and tried it. I like it, but I agree some oak would make it better. So, I'm going to toss some cubes in and see what happens.

 

[bob1852]

Reporting back: Because of this I did try the Chemex coffee filter, and it did in fact remove small drips and drabs of bentonite to produce an ultra clear final racking. It is not, however, good for filtering true sludge or anything even close to that, at least not in a single pass. The more sludgy the mead from bentonite, the more diminishing returns quickly become a limiting factor, with lower yields because of more rackings and filterings required to clean it up.

So, at least to me, bentonite (and probably fining in general) is a tool of last resort. If I can find a yeast strain that both tastes good and doesn't require it, then that would be preferable. If I can't find such a unicorn, then I'll have to make bigger batches to offset the lower yields, or else become more accepting of haze/cloudiness, as does exist in even some commercial meads.

Conclusion: when it comes to personal consumption, I'll take the haze rather than the hassle. When it comes to making a mead for friends to comfortably enjoy without worries or reservations, I think that's when bentonite or similar makes sense. Otherwise it can tend to look a bit dodgy, especially to someone unfamiliar with mead or homebrewing.

Even with bentonite, fining takes time.

It's not going to be completely settled and compacted after 24 hours.

 

[NeverDie]

Even with bentonite, fining takes time.

It's not going to be completely settled and compacted after 24 hours.

How long does it require? It's useful to put numbers on things.

 

[NeverDie]

Reporting back: Today I tried 1/2 TSP Bentonite across 5 different meads, and it just wasn't enough to clear them. The 1 TSP I tried previously worked great, and more or less instantly, so I guess that's about the right dosing per gallon.

I take it back. It turns out that after further agitation and a second cold crash, all 5 of them cleared on just 1/2 Tsp Bentonite per gallon. Less lees, and so less waste. More time and effort.

 

[Maylar]

I'm considering trying that with my cyser. Or maybe another dose of pectic enzyme, the first one doesn't seem to have done much. I wish there was a way to tell what the haze is from - yeast, pectin, or honey proteins. That'd make choosing a fining easier.