Blood Orange Gose Water Profile

[kmall002]

I brewed raspberry blackberry gose a month and a half back and I thought it turned out pretty well for my first attempt. It was kettle soured with lacto. I am keeping the base recipe mostly the same but trying blood orange vs the berries. Previously I used a yellow balanced water profile (Ca - 50, Mg - 7, Na - 5, SO4 - 75, Cl - 60, HCO3 - 0) but some more reading makes me wonder if I can make some better adjustments. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Here is my base water profile:

Calcium - 25.6
Magnesium - 7.0
Na - 22
S04 - 15
Cl - 42
HCO3 - 54
Ph - 7.6

Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Pretty sure a gose needs some more sodium and chloride.

I have suggestions here for sour beer water profile (under Recipes), and an easier/faster/safer souring method instead of souring in the kettle:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer
Cheers

 

[kmall002]

Pretty sure a gose needs some more sodium and chloride.

I have suggestions here for sour beer water profile (under Recipes), and an easier/faster/safer souring method instead of souring in the kettle:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer
Cheers

This is interesting. I have been using the good belly shots (100 billions cells). So if I went with the co-souring method, I would: mash, sparge, and boil - no hops. Chill and aerate. Then pitch both yeast and bacteria at the same time. Then monitor ph until it hits the sourness I would have been going for in the kettle sour technique. At that point I add the hops (I only have .33 oz of hallertau blanc hops).

Assuming the above is correct, I have some questions:

1. How long do I need to boil if there are no hops at this stage (I do have modest coriander and salt additions late in the boil)

2. How much Lactobacillus do I pitch with the good belly shot variety (they are 20 billion each)?

3. Is it the hops that keeps the bacteria from causing the beer to sour past the point I want it to? The hops? or is is just the lower cell count of bacteria and the lower temperature (vs. 100 degrees in kettle souring)

4. For the fruit, I am using blood orange puree that I just put in a secondary and rack over about 5 days into fermentation. Can I keep that same process?

5. I had planned on a lactose addition (this is the first time). Where would this fit in?

Sorry for all the questions. I would love to be able to eliminate the kettle sour portion and the nervous waiting for the Ph to be hit at an odd time requiring me to drop what I am doing and boil. I just want to make sure I get it right.

 

[RPh_Guy]

1. Any length of boil is fine since we don't need to isomerize any hops. I usually boil for 45-60 minutes just out of habit, but it's generally fine to boil for 10 minutes or not at all.

2. 1-2 shots would be fine for 5 gal.

3. Yes, hops inhibit souring, and can be used to arrest souring at any point. However, low pH also inhibits souring, so the Lacto will stop naturally around pH 3.2-3.3.
I suspect 0.33 oz dry hop in 5 gal would work. This species is very hop-sensitive.

4. Yes, normal fruit process.

5. Lactose can be added at any point. Most people add it late boil.

I'm happy to answer any questions!

 

[kmall002]

Awesome info. Going to give it a try tomorrow. I had been going off of traditional Goslar water, which may not have been the best guide since this isn't exactly a traditional Gose. I never knew the sodium and chloride should be that high.

Last questions...at least till tomorrow.

1. You think .33 oz of hops is enough? It seemed pretty consistent with what I had read but since they are not going to be added at the boil, should this be increased?

2. Without boiling hops, will I have enough IBU's?

3. Those numbers on sodium and chloride are higher than anything I have ever done. Thoughts on a specific water profile that I should go after given my base profile?

Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

1. I think 0.33 oz is likely fine. I generally use about 0.5 oz / 5 gal.

2. Yes, it's not supposed to be bitter.

3. You said you were planning to add salt. How much did you have in mind, and for what volume of water?

 

[kmall002]

1. I think 0.33 oz is likely fine. I generally use about 0.5 oz / 5 gal.

2. Yes, it's not supposed to be bitter.

3. You said you were planning to add salt. How much did you have in mind, and for what volume of water?

It is a 5 gallon batch. Recipe started with 10.11 gallons of base water. Prior recipe had .85 oz late in boil. Same for coriander. Given the salt I am now going to put in the water, I am not sure that is the proper amount anymore, or at least (as I think you are doing here) I have to plan for it.

Really appreciate it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

0.85 oz (24.1g) NaCl in 10.1 gal adds:
248 ppm Na
382 ppm Cl

That puts everything within my suggested ranges combined with your base water profile.

You might consider a little calcium chloride to bump up the calcium.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

 

[kmall002]

0.85 oz (24.1g) NaCl in 10.1 gal adds:
248 ppm Na
382 ppm Cl

That puts everything within my suggested ranges combined with your base water profile.

You might consider a little calcium chloride to bump up the calcium.

https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/

Awesome. Think I got it. I assume that if I am adding that salt addition late in the boil when there is only about 8 gallons left that I would have to back that down and/or add more in the base water and less later on?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't see why you wouldn't add all the water additions together... But whatever you want to do is fine. You can even add the NaCl after fermentation.

I suggest basing the mineral amounts on the water/wort volume at the time you add it.

 

[kmall002]

I don't see why you wouldn't add all the water additions together... But whatever you want to do is fine. You can even add the NaCl after fermentation.

I suggest basing the mineral amounts on the water/wort volume at the time you add it.

Ok. In fermenter. Fingers crossed. I suspect the process will take longer to drop the ph into the proper reading?

thanks again!!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Cool, hope it turns out well!

Souring still happens reasonably fast -- around 1 to 3 days to near terminal pH.

 

[kmall002]

Cool, hope it turns out well!

Souring still happens reasonably fast -- around 1 to 3 days to near terminal pH.

Just giving an update. Went in the fermenter Sunday night at 1.047 OG. Currently at 1.023. The pH fell pretty rapidly after the first day, day and a half (slightly over 4), but has slowed significantly. I am using the Wyeast 1007 German ale, which has a lower fermentation temp profile (tops at 68). As of 5 minutes ago it is at 3.85. It had been around 66 degrees but I am going to bump it up a bit and see if that helps. Let me know if my thinking is sound.

Regarding the fruit - in prior iterations, I had racked onto fruit in secondary after about 5 days. But I had kettle soured that one and I didn't have any hops in there. Assuming I am going to add the hops here shortly when we get a little lower on the ph, should I just add the fruit to the primary and forgo the secondary? Thanks!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Bumping up the temp is a good idea. How much GoodBelly did you add?

I would not use a secondary vessel if you can fit all the fruit in the primary.

 

[kmall002]

Bumping up the temp is a good idea. How much GoodBelly did you add?

I would not use a secondary vessel if you can fit all the fruit in the primary.

I used 2 of the goodbelly shots so 40 billion cells total. Plenty of room in primary for fruit.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Ok, sounds good then. How's it tasting?

 

[kmall002]

You smell the sour and start to get a little sour but it has a bit to go for sure. I think I took the last one down to 3.3. I used a little lactose this time which I have never done before. Otherwise as expected at this point.

 

[VikeMan]

The pH fell pretty rapidly after the first day, day and a half (slightly over 4), but has slowed significantly. I am using the Wyeast 1007 German ale, which has a lower fermentation temp profile (tops at 68). As of 5 minutes ago it is at 3.85.

That's kind of the nature of souring. The rate of change in pH will keep getting slower. Even if the bugs were to keep pumping out lactic acid at the same rate (they don't really), each incremental shift in pH takes more additional acid than the one before it, due to the logarithmic nature of the pH scale. The beauty of that is that it makes it pretty hard to over-shoot your pH target, unless you really stop paying attention.

 

[kmall002]

That's kind of the nature of souring. The rate of change in pH will keep getting slower. Even if the bugs were to keep pumping out lactic acid at the same rate (they don't really), each incremental shift in pH takes more additional acid than the one before it, due to the logarithmic nature of the pH scale. The beauty of that is that it makes it pretty hard to over-shoot your pH target, unless you really stop paying attention.

yes definitely better than the time my kettle sour hit the right ph as I was headed to work, requiring me to boil right then and there. This is definitely better. Look forward to trying something other than lacto. Will need help though. Thanks to both of you.

 

[kmall002]

Ok, sounds good then. How's it tasting?

So it turns out that I may have found the culprit with the low attenuation. A bad RIMS unit cable was registering a temperature over 10 degrees lower than it actually was. As such, the last three brews were mashing at temps in the 160's. Given that this one is stuck solid as the others at 1.022 and its now day 8 (still have only reached 3.55 ph), I don't want to waste the fruit on this. I am just going to run it back but get my mash right. My question is, can I harvest the yeast from this batch and use it in the next batch? I have never washed yeast before but getting yeast at the moment takes more time and effort than I would like, so if I can reuse, it might be worth it. I just didn't know if given the lacto, that it would be a problem. If this is ok, do I have to wash it? Given it is still in the fermenter, what’s the easiest way to reuse the yeast? I never added the hops by the way. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I generally don't recommend re-pitching from a cake, but the process I suggest is to use maybe 200mL of slurry in a starter.

 

[kmall002]

I generally don't recommend re-pitching from a cake, but the process I suggest is to use maybe 200mL of slurry in a starter.

Thanks. Do you think the ph dropping so slow was due to the underlying mash temperature issue? I can't get it to go lower than 3.55. It is sour, but not sour enough in my opinion. Can I drop another good belly if I am looking to get it a little further or will that make any difference? I am on the fence and may add the fruit to see if kick starts fermentation a little. I go back and forth for sure. If I plow forward, is there an order to adding the dry hops, good belly (if it will do anything), and fruit? I would assume the good belly would be first due to hop sensitivity? fruit?

Sorry for all the questions.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I tend to assume people's pH readings are inaccurate. Do you keep the probe submerged in a pH meter storage solution? Did you calibrate the meter immediately before using it? Did you use reasonably recent (and not re-used) calibration solution? Are you rinsing the probe between the calibration solutions so as to avoid cross-contamination? Etc, etc, ...pH meters aren't exactly user friendly for people without chemistry lab experience.

High mash pH would not affect L. plantarum's ability to produce acid while fermentable sugars are present. The ability of Lacto to continue to sour after yeast fermentation completes depends on whether it can break down dextrins (whether the strain is amylolytic). I can't say whether the particular strain in GoodBelly is amylolytic. I use a different culture. Adding more GoodBelly wouldn't be much help.

Hops prevent souring, so they should never be added until souring is complete. Did you already add hops?

Most fruit has natural sourness, so that may help.

Add hops after the fruit. FYI if you add hops, the cake should not be re-used for souring.

An option to increase sourness is to make another (more sour) batch and blend them to reach the level of sourness you want.

 

[kmall002]

I tend to assume people's pH readings are inaccurate. Do you keep the probe submerged in a pH meter storage solution? Did you calibrate the meter immediately before using it? Did you use reasonably recent (and not re-used) calibration solution? Are you rinsing the probe between the calibration solutions so as to avoid cross-contamination? Etc, etc, ...pH meters aren't exactly user friendly for people without chemistry lab experience.

High mash pH would not affect L. plantarum's ability to produce acid while fermentable sugars are present. The ability of Lacto to continue to sour after yeast fermentation completes depends on whether it can break down dextrins (whether the strain is amylolytic). I can't say whether the particular strain in GoodBelly is amylolytic. I use a different culture. Adding more GoodBelly wouldn't be much help.

Hops prevent souring, so they should never be added until souring is complete. Did you already add hops?

Most fruit has natural sourness, so that may help.

Add hops after the fruit. FYI if you add hops, the cake should not be re-used for souring.

An option to increase sourness is to make another (more sour) batch and blend them to reach the level of sourness you want.

Re: pH meter - I have no way of knowing whether it is off or not. I do keep it stored in solution that is changed with frequency. I would say I calibrate it every other use. I do rinse between uses and between calibration solution uses. Is all of this perfect? probably not, but I always understood it to be another tool to aid but not the gospel - I am always tasting and smelling as well.

Thanks for the info on the science. I am reading American Sour Beers now and hope to get a better understanding of all this. I am happy to try a different culture next time if you have anything to recommend. It worked quite well with the kettle sour method so I tried not to over think it. Seems people use it frequently on here.

I did not yet add the hops as I was still on the fence what I wanted to do with this batch. I will add the fruit and see what happens. I won't reuse this yeast if I add hops.

 

[RPh_Guy]

By the way, the lactose, low attenuation, and salt are all reducing the perception of sourness in this beer.

I use Renew Life Ultimate Flora, but multiple people have used GoodBelly successfully with co-souring.
I don't see any flaws with your process, so I'm not really sure what might have gone wrong here (if the pH is indeed still that high). I can't make any sense of it because the lactose would still be a food source regardless of the mash temp issue.

When you say fermentation was around 66°F, could it have dropped lower then 65? Maybe you should bump it up to around 70°F if you can, and see if that helps. Check thermometer calibration?
You didn't use iodized salt, right?

 

[kmall002]

By the way, the lactose, low attenuation, and salt are all reducing the perception of sourness in this beer.

I use Renew Life Ultimate Flora, but multiple people have used GoodBelly successfully with co-souring.
I don't see any flaws with your process, so I'm not really sure what might have wrong here (if the pH is indeed still that high). I can't make any sense of it because the lactose would still be a food source regardless of the mash temp issue.

When you say fermentation was around 66°F, could it have dropped lower then 65? Maybe you should bump it up to around 70°F if you can, and see if that helps. Check thermometer calibration?
You didn't use iodized salt, right?

I have had the temperature at 68 for days. I can bump it up to 70. I am using an inkbird but also have a tilt inside so I am pretty comfortable that the readings are accurate within a degree. I agree with you on the lactose working against the sourness. Recalibrated with new solution this am - still at 3.55. Did not use iodized salt.

Yeah I dunno. May just add the blood orange and see if that adds some tartness as well.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's puzzling, sorry man.

Again, blending is an option to increase sourness, as well as supplementing the acidity by directly adding acid. FYI I was able to help another brewer make a very sour 1 gal batch for blending to fix an issue with a 5 gal batch (the Lacto he pitched was clearly dead in his case).

 

[kmall002]

That's puzzling, sorry man.

Again, blending is an option to increase sourness, as well as supplementing the acidity by directly adding acid. FYI I was able to help another brewer make a very sour 1 gal batch for blending to fix an issue with a 5 gal batch (the Lacto he pitched was clearly dead in his case).

No need to be sorry. You have been a great help and souring another small batch might be an interesting task for blending. Would be nice if I had some left over wort on another batch. I'll keep you updated but these are all great lessons - if nothing else in that you may not always have an explanation for something! I am just glad to have someone take a look at my brewing process and see that I am not making any catastrophic mistakes. Should I try a gentle swirl of the cake with a sanitized spoon when I add the fruit to see if I can get the gravity a little lower on this one? Ironically, on the other IPA batch I am brewing, I added the dry hops and it is starting to bring the gravity down...

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't know whether rousing would be helpful in this case.

Hops contain amylase enzymes (some more than others). You can add enzyme products directly if you want the gravity lower:
Amylase or glucoamylase enzymes break down dextrins, but wouldn't touch the lactose.
Lactase enzymes break down lactose, but wouldn't touch the dextrins.

 

[kmall002]

I don't know whether rousing would be helpful in this case.

Hops contain amylase enzymes (some more than others). You can add enzyme products directly if you want the gravity lower:
Amylase or glucoamylase enzymes break down dextrins, but wouldn't touch the lactose.
Lactase enzymes break down lactose, but wouldn't touch the dextrins.

For what its worth, I added the fruit yesterday afternoon. As of this am, the pH had dropped to 3.38 and tasted appropriately sour. I chucked in the dry hops.

 

[RPh_Guy]

That's so weird, but I'm glad it worked out ok!

 

[kmall002]

That's so weird, but I'm glad it worked out ok!

Quick question - is this the lacto you use?

https://www.amazon.com/Renew-Life-P...ds=renew+ultimate+flora&qid=1589563530&sr=8-6

 

[RPh_Guy]

Quick question - is this the lacto you use?

https://www.amazon.com/Renew-Life-P...ds=renew+ultimate+flora&qid=1589563530&sr=8-6

Yep

 

[kmall002]

Pretty sure a gose needs some more sodium and chloride.

I have suggestions here for sour beer water profile (under Recipes), and an easier/faster/safer souring method instead of souring in the kettle:
www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/Sour_beer
Cheers

Going to try another sour and I thought I would read back through the link above, but it isn't showing up any more. Any idea where it went?

Cheers

 

[VikeMan]

Going to try another sour and I thought I would read back through the link above, but it isn't showing up any more. Any idea where it went?

It looks like the **************** URLs got replaced with homebrewtalk URLs, even though most of those pages don't exist. Try:
https://***************.com/wiki/Sour_beer
Edit: Ah, it looks like the replacement is automatic. The **************** link I attempted above displays as homebrewtalk.

 

[kmall002]

Still not working. Dead link.

 

[VikeMan]

Still not working. Dead link.

Well, you could type it in manually. The original *************** site still exists.

 

[kmall002]

Well, you could type it in manually. The original *************** site still exists.

I tried that and still getting the same thing. No worries. You don't need to solve my technical problems. Was wondering if it got relocated or something. Was a great resource. Thanks.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It looks like the **************** URLs got replaced with homebrewtalk URLs, even though most of those pages don't exist. Try:
www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/Sour_beer
Edit: Ah, it looks like the replacement is automatic. The **************** link I attempted above displays as homebrewtalk.

HBT blacklisted a site simply for providing high-quality brewing info...

I tried that and still getting the same thing. No worries. You don't need to solve my technical problems. Was wondering if it got relocated or something. Was a great resource. Thanks.

Indeed, my site still exists.

 

[kmall002]

By the way, the lactose, low attenuation, and salt are all reducing the perception of sourness in this beer.

I use Renew Life Ultimate Flora, but multiple people have used GoodBelly successfully with co-souring.
I don't see any flaws with your process, so I'm not really sure what might have gone wrong here (if the pH is indeed still that high). I can't make any sense of it because the lactose would still be a food source regardless of the mash temp issue.

When you say fermentation was around 66°F, could it have dropped lower then 65? Maybe you should bump it up to around 70°F if you can, and see if that helps. Check thermometer calibration?
You didn't use iodized salt, right?

Thanks for forwarding the link. Quick question:

How many capsules would you pitch per 5 gallon batch of the Renew life?