Bland Beer Blues

[tpitman]

My first batch was a Coopers Dark Ale kit. Turned out fairly well (I've swilled down 40 bottles and haven't gone blind yet, so how bad could it be). Anyway, brewed my second batch following the "First Batch" recipe from "The True Brew Handbook" that came with the kit I bought at my LHBS, as follows:

3.3 lbs. of amber LME (instead of light)
2.4 lbs. of light LME instead of 2 lbs of light DME
2 oz. of Cascade hops pellets.
1 pack of Safale 04 yeast
1.5 gal approx. of tap water for boiling the extract and hops
Bottled spring water to make up the remainder 5 gals.

Brought tap water to a boil, added hops after foam went down, slow rolling boil for 30 minutes, per the recipe. Cooled pot covered in a sink of cold water to drop temp, placed in fermentation pail with spring water, aerating by splashing, took hydrometer reading, pitched dry yeast on topt 71 degrees, dabbed with spoon to wet, covered and fermented for 2 weeks at about 72 - 74 degrees average.

Bottled and placed in dark utility tubs for 3 weeks. Chilled for 24 hours and sampled 2 bottles last night.

Analysis:
Not much in the way of taste. Nicely carbed, small bubbles rising off the bottom, kind of a weak head and not much retention. The one thing that did pleasantly surprise me was the hops were not as "offensive" as I feared after reading about different hop characteristics . . . after I'd made up the batch. Nice dry finish, which I really do like, and none of the sometimes overbearing floral hop note you get with microbrews. You can taste the hops, but not overwhelming. Kind of nondescript in flavor otherwise, though. A touch of the "apple" scent to it the way both batches smell when I open the bucket to rack to the bottling bucket, but not overwhelming there, either. That could be more smell than taste. I know the beer is still young, but I don't see it suddenly gaining a lot of flavor if there isn't much there to begin with. It's drinkable, and trust me, I'll drink it, but I won't be making it again without changing something.

Is the lack of much flavor a characteristic of using only plain malt extracts? Should I assume that to get any flavor I'll have to move to using steeping grains to get more taste besides the hops?

Thanks in advance.

 

[HenBog]

It's been my experience that steeping grains are the flavor. Using just extract malts, you are really only going to get the "beer" flavor. Also, the more additions of grains that you steep, the longer it should be left in the secondary to help bring the flavors into a better harmony. A lot of times the more neutral the yeast, and dry in particular, will not allow for any real flavor to come through.

Hope that helps.

 

[unionrdr]

To me,it also depends on where the LME/DME comes from. I use LME from Australia,DME from England,hops from here & Europe. Different countries put different flavors in there malts,according to what their customers usually prefer. The kind of beers they usually drink.
Above being extra light,light,amber,or dark. I get good flavors by mixing/matching ingredients from all over the world. Different malts have different grains in them,in other words.

 

[airdusters]

If you want to improve your extract brews I highly recommend steeping 1 lb of 2-Row and 8 oz of carapils or carafoam. Just steep it for 60 minutes instead of 30 so sufficient starch conversion can take place. Even that tiny little bit of 2-row and steeping grains will greatly improve the quality of your beer.

If you are going to use steeping grains don't use Amber malt extract. That contains Crystal 60L usually so you may end up with a beer that is too sweet when you combine that with steeped crystal malt. Should be ok with carapils, though, since that doesn't add sweetness.

 

[rayg]

My first batch was a Coopers Dark Ale kit. Turned out fairly well (I've swilled down 40 bottles and haven't gone blind yet, so how bad could it be). Anyway, brewed my second batch following the "First Batch" recipe from "The True Brew Handbook" that came with the kit I bought at my LHBS, as follows:

3.3 lbs. of amber LME (instead of light)
2.4 lbs. of light LME instead of 2 lbs of light DME
2 oz. of Cascade hops pellets.
1 pack of Safale 04 yeast
1.5 gal approx. of tap water for boiling the extract and hops
Bottled spring water to make up the remainder 5 gals.

Brought tap water to a boil, added hops after foam went down, slow rolling boil for 30 minutes, per the recipe. Cooled pot covered in a sink of cold water to drop temp, placed in fermentation pail with spring water, aerating by splashing, took hydrometer reading, pitched dry yeast on topt 71 degrees, dabbed with spoon to wet, covered and fermented for 2 weeks at about 72 - 74 degrees average.

Bottled and placed in dark utility tubs for 3 weeks. Chilled for 24 hours and sampled 2 bottles last night.

Analysis:
Not much in the way of taste. Nicely carbed, small bubbles rising off the bottom, kind of a weak head and not much retention. The one thing that did pleasantly surprise me was the hops were not as "offensive" as I feared after reading about different hop characteristics . . . after I'd made up the batch. Nice dry finish, which I really do like, and none of the sometimes overbearing floral hop note you get with microbrews. You can taste the hops, but not overwhelming. Kind of nondescript in flavor otherwise, though. A touch of the "apple" scent to it the way both batches smell when I open the bucket to rack to the bottling bucket, but not overwhelming there, either. That could be more smell than taste. I know the beer is still young, but I don't see it suddenly gaining a lot of flavor if there isn't much there to begin with. It's drinkable, and trust me, I'll drink it, but I won't be making it again without changing something.

Is the lack of much flavor a characteristic of using only plain malt extracts? Should I assume that to get any flavor I'll have to move to using steeping grains to get more taste besides the hops?

Thanks in advance.

Doesn't have anything to do with the extract. First, you didn't use
plain, you used a majority of amber. If you had done an all grain
batch with 7.25 pounds of 2 row and 4 ounces of crystal 60, you
would have gotten the same result if the other ingredients were
the same. You don't report the aa content of your hops but you
could have had anywhere between 20 and 30 IBU in your final
beer, and 20 IBU isn't much different from Beck's or Heineken.

Ray

 

[rayg]

Another point is that you say you can smell apple
when bottling. You didn't boil for a full hour so some
of the flavor/aroma of the hops would still be there,
in particular Cascade has a lot of farnesene, which
has a green-apple smell. Aging for 3 weeks is a lot
actually for an ale, and most of the hop oils not
related to bitterness should disappear. If you want
to avoid the floral aroma, boil the full hour to evaporate
the hop oils (and adjust your amount because instead
of 15% utilization you will get closer to 30 using extract.)
You are going to have to experiment to find out if the
extra flavor you want is from more hop bitterness or
darker grains.

Ray

 

[unionrdr]

I used amber malt in my dark ale with 2 kinds of hops. I don't set much store in Carapils,since my wife used it in hers,nailed her temps & all,& in the end it didn't show me much. Not much difference in flavor quality from mine to hers. It made good head,sure. But I can get that with my all extract ales. Especially since I started doing 3 hop additions in half the total DME. but sweetness has to be cut with more hops,to whatever degree works for you in a given style. Or make sure your yeast attenuates to the needed percentage.

 

[drocu]

If you want to improve your extract brews I highly recommend steeping 1 lb of 2-Row and 8 oz of carapils or carafoam. Just steep it for 60 minutes instead of 30 so sufficient starch conversion can take place. Even that tiny little bit of 2-row and steeping grains will greatly improve the quality of your beer.

It's interesting that you say this because there's another extract/steeping grains thread that says not to do this. I guess the logic is that unless you're going to be mashing a significant amount of 2-row, it's not worth it for a pound.

 

[slowbie]

If you want to improve your extract brews I highly recommend steeping 1 lb of 2-Row and 8 oz of carapils or carafoam. Just steep it for 60 minutes instead of 30 so sufficient starch conversion can take place. Even that tiny little bit of 2-row and steeping grains will greatly improve the quality of your beer.

I call bull****. 2 row and carapils are exactly what goes into light extract. As long as you use fresh extract it won't be an issue.

Also, you did NOT age your beer so long that all the hop oils disappeared. It's only been five weeks since brewing. I've had plenty of pale ales both homebrewed and commercial that were way over five weeks old and still had plenty of hop flavor and aroma. In fact, that apple taste/smell may be acetaldehyde, which is often a sign that your beer is still too young.

My advice: don't use any more recipes from that book. I think it's the same one I got with my kit and if so you're much better off with this site and howtobrew.com Speaking of, you should read howtobrew.com if you haven't already. Skip only the part about secondary fermentation--he has since changed his stance and advocates a three or four week primary and no secondary for most beers. You may also skip the part about all grain if you want.

For the next batch use a tried and true recipe from this site. Use only light or extra light extract because you don't really know what's in the others. Any color or flavor you want you can get from steeping grains. Pick a beer that's the same or similar style to one you know you like, perhaps even a clone. That way you know what you're going for and can hopefully pick a recipe to get you there.

Many of us were less than thrilled by our first batch but keep learning, trying, and asking for help and you'll get there before you know it.

 

[unionrdr]

I've found that with my latest batch,the o2 caps have made a big difference in the aroma/flavors of my ales. The color,malt flavor,& hop aromas/flavors keep improving. I'll have to get a comparison pic of my "APA" from then to now sort of thing. The color has gone from amber/orange to a toasty amber/orange. The spiciness of the US Perle & Czech Saaz have gotten stronger on the nose & palette.
And I can pour slowly down the side all I want,& still get a nice,thick,velvety head with the "up-side-down snow storm". I think it's my best beer yet. I used a can of cooper's OS Draught,3lbs of Munton's plain (un-hopped) light DME,& the hops mentioned in 3 additions in half the DME. 2.5G boil. This method does indeed seem to get better utilization.

 

[McGarnigle]

I agree that carapils and 2-row won't be your salvation. Comments in the original post suggest you aren't really a hop guy, so if you want big flavor, use more malt. You can mash a bit of Munich or something like that, or maybe just use more extract. And was your extract reasonable fresh?

Of course, this isn't exactly a doppelbock recipe, so it depends on what you expected.

 

[tpitman]

The malt was canned Breiss liquid, good for about another year or so, according to the use-by date. Wanted something a bit darker, with hopefully a bit more flavor. I think one thing I should've done is boiled the malt solution and hops for a full 60 minutes instead of the 30 noted in the recipe. As for hops, I'm more interested in the bittering as opposed to the aroma. It seems that all of the craft brewers think that they've got to knock you out with a floral scent to prove their beer ain't Bud. I've drunk a six-pack of this batch, and it's more of an aroma thing than a taste thing. If I block my sense of smell by closing my throat before swallowing, the sensation is better, with more of the hop bitterness present, if that makes sense. All in all, it's not bad tasting, not bad smelling, but it's more of an almost non-existent taste with just a "beer" smell, like when you first open the fermentation bucket and take a whiff, or sniffing what's left in a bottle that you drank a couple of hours ago. I'm just a little disappointed. I'm also wondering if the fermentation temps are having an effect. 72 - 73 approximately.
To the other comments, I'm out of bottle caps so I think I'll spring the few pennies more for the oxygen-absorbing ones. Can't hurt, although I'm careful when I bottle. And, I've since read most of John Palmer's writings. And, I think I might start doing small batches, doing a second fermentation in gallon jugs, to increase turnaroud with deliberate changes to move towards two or three styles as keepers, without having two cases of beer every time in the event that they don't turn out so hot.
Thanks to all for your comments.