Black ipa help

[simcoe26]

So I am brewing a black ipa soon and was looking for advice. I like my black ipas not just as a dark colored ipa I feel the dark grain should impart some flavor in roast but no where near a stout. So he is what I have

12.5lb 2 row
12oz crystal 60
8oz chocolate
8oz rye
8oz roasted barley
6oz carafa 3
12oz flaked wheat

1oz Columbus fwh
.5oz Chinook @60
1oz amarillo @15
1oz each Chinook Columbus and centennial for a 30 steap
2oz amarillo dry hop

Wlp 001
Og:1071
Fg:1013

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Your amounts of dark roasted grains are probably fine. Though I don't like roasted barley unless I am making a dry stout, I would use more Carafa or replace it with a huskless/de bittered roast malt in lieu of roasted barley. That's just like, my opinion, though so take it with a grain of salt (I just don't like roasted barley unless I'm doing dry stout or RIS, huskless or debittered roast malts just add so much more character without any risk of ashy burnt notes).

Otherwise I'd double or triple the amounts on your late hop additions. Otherwise I think you may end up with more of an American stout rather than a black IPA.

 

[Jaybird]

Its a tuff style to nail IMHO. You want a little roasty notes and ya want the rye to come through for sure but you want BIG BIG IN YOUR FACE hop aroma like a good IPA. I think I would dial back C60L myself and maybe dial back the roasted barley a tad too and add a little to the Carafa and Rye.. I am with @ArkotRamathorn in the camp of, take my opinion with a grain of salt. I have just recently started playing with the style.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

Cheers
Jay

 

[Americal]

Ya know, hopping an IPA is a really personal thing. I happen to like the dank of simcoe or chinook dry hopping an IPA, particularly in darker versions. I'd cut the C60 and the chocolate a bit and hit it with about 4-6 oz. blackprinz, you can make a beer black as the inside of your hat with it without any bitterness. I also second ArkotRamathorn's post, careful with the roasted barley.

 

[FatDragon]

You've got a similar roast profile to the one Black IPA I made and I was very happy with the results. However, I'd at least double the rye - it's a very nice complement in a roasty black IPA and doesn't deserve to be limited to such a small part of the grainbill.

Edit: Saw you had three roasted grains - missed the chocolate first time I read it - you could probably cut out either the chocolate or carafa III as they're fairly redundant and you might be at the overload level at this point. Many stout recipes don't even call for that much roasted grain. A total of ~1lb will put you solidly in the "roasty" camp for a black IPA. This is assuming a 5-6 gallon batch.

 

[Jwin]

Id cut the roasted barley in half, look into subbing some midnight wheat for some wheat, and go with carafa special(debittered)
Then, you can adjust the roastiness in future batches with one denominator.
And id ditch amarillo. Its to fruity for a bipa in my opinion. May clash a bit for my tastes as a fetured hop. Centennial works well, and is cheaper.
My .02
Also, why a fwh and a 60 minute addition?

 

[ShizuokaBrad]

With a recipe like that I don't think you can call it an IPA at all. It looks like a heavily hopped stout to me. Which is fine of course if it suits your taste!

IMO you don't need both the chocolate and the carafa III. I probably just use the carafa.

 

[SevenOaks]

I would replace the roasted barley with midnight wheat.

 

[MindenMan]

I agree with the midnight wheat suggestion, lots of color a little bit of roasty.

 

[charliethebum]

+1 for the midnight wheat instead of roasted barley. I've been playing around with my black ipa recipe and 8 oz each chocolate(350l) and midnight wheat (500l) have a nice roasty contribution without being over the top. I couldn't agree more that a bipa needs some roastiness, but like others have said, this recipe sounds more like a hopped up stout. Just my 2¢

 

[mrgrimm101]

It depends what you want from the beer. Personally, I like a Black IPA to have a decent amount of roast flavor. I've brewed a Black IPA using mostly midnight wheat and it didn't have enough roasty flavor..it was pretty much an IPA that was black in color. Next time I'm going to add a bit more chocolate malt and a small amount of roasted barley.

 

[m00ps]

Here's my bit I posted in my article for black IPA considerations:
Black IPA. These are tricky. My main goal here is to make something as far removed from a hoppy stout as possible. This means keeping it dry (notice a pattern here?), and minimizing roast flavors, while still achieving a pitch-black color. Unless you are using dyes, you will need some sort of roasted malt for color. De-bittered malts are definitely the way to go. I've used carafa III, blackprinz, and midnight wheat with success (midnight wheat being my preference). I've found one pound in a five-gallon batch will get you dark enough to not see through it at all. The thing is, even de-bittered malt retains some degree of roast. To keep this in check, I have been adding half of my darkening malt in the mash, and leaving out the other half until mashout. This seems to work very well. One other thing to note is the hop selection for Black IPAs. Not all hops lend themselves to the roasty flavors found in Black IPAs. I've found piney, resiny/dank, and citrusy hops work best for my tastes here.


agree with most of the recommendations. I think you really should omit the crystal though, use midnight wheat, mash low, and definitely use some sugar. Youve got a hoppy stout on your hands as it stands

 

[filthyastronaut]

I have one Black IPA with 4.3% Chocolate Malt and 4.3% C120 that is appropriately dry and has a nice roast note, and another with 6.3% Midnight Wheat and 8.3% C120, which is a little sweeter but not excessively so. The second has hops up front with an assertive coffee aftertaste. It comes off more like a hoppy stout than the first, but it does make me think IPA more than stout. Both mashed at 148. So I'd say you can use less roasted malts to get that flavor, probably 12 oz. tops for a Black IPA before it gets too much like a hoppy stout, probably limit crystal to 5% of the grist to be on the safe side. I would definitely agree that the roast character is the most appealing part of a Black IPA, because I question the point of making an IPA black and not tasting it. For me, I want it to taste like an IPA, but I embrace that it's a hybrid style.

 

[simcoe26]

So here are my changes.

12.5 pale
8oz chocolate
12oz rye
8oz carafa 3
12oz midnight wheat
12 oz dextrose added after boil

1oz Columbus fwh
.5oz Chinook @60
1oz amarillo @15
2oz each Chinook Columbus and centennial
2oz amarillo dry hop

 

[FatDragon]

So here are my changes.

12.5 pale
8oz chocolate
12oz rye
8oz carafa 3
12oz midnight wheat
12 oz dextrose added after boil

1oz Columbus fwh
.5oz Chinook @60
1oz amarillo @15
2oz each Chinook Columbus and centennial
2oz amarillo dry hop

I don't like these changes, and here's why:

You're using a pound of very roasty grain in the chocolate and carafa III, so you're going to get high levels of roast flavor in this beer (which I like in a black IPA), but chocolate and carafa are fairly similar in flavor so it won't be very complex, just heavy.

Midnight wheat is recommended for dark color without adding much roast flavor - as you've already got a pound of dark grain, you don't need to add more color, so the midnight wheat is basically wasted in here.

I also don't see getting rid of all of the caramel malt. Yes, an IPA is supposed to be a dry beer, but a black IPA (which I would prefer to call a CDA - Cascadian Dark Ale - if it didn't sound so pretentious) is a different thing in my opinion. A bit of sweetness to balance out the roast is important in my opinion.

The problem you're running into here is that you're getting advice from two very different camps and putting it together. The midnight wheat and dry as a bone crowd wants you to make an IPA and color it black (which I think is kind've silly, but to each his own). The roast and a bit of caramel crowd believes a black IPA should be something different from a standard IPA that's black in color, though the results are often derided as a "hoppy stout". When you keep the dryness of the first group's suggestions and the roast of the second group, you're going to end up with something that doesn't work for either side and will probably end up tasting astringent from the unbalanced roast, which will take away from the hops and make a mediocre beer.

If you want an IPA that's black, use a debittered black grain like midnight wheat exclusively for your color, mash low, and limit caramel malts. If you want a beer that's both hoppy and roasty (my preference), use 12-16 oz of roasted grains (I like the chocolate/roasted barley combo for variety), some caramel malt (~5-8%), and mash at a medium temperature.

 

[simcoe26]

So how about replacing carafa 3 with crystal 60 ounce for ounce. I am also in the cascadian dark ale club.

 

[FatDragon]

So how about replacing carafa 3 with crystal 60 ounce for ounce. I am also in the cascadian dark ale club.

I feel like that's a step in the right direction. I'm not sure if you need the dextrose to dry it out, but you can try it like that (maybe mash at 154-156 in order to prevent it from getting too dry, but I'm stabbing in the dark here). If you brew it like this, I feel like you have a solid foundation for building the recipe - if you end up feeling it's too sweet, you can cut the caramel; not roasty enough, swap some midnight wheat for chocolate or roasted barley; too dry, cut the dextrose, add more caramel malt, or raise the mash temp...

I also haven't touched on the hops, mostly because I think your hop profile looks pretty good as is. Unlike one earlier poster, I feel like the amarillo will be a nice touch with the other three hops - a roasty black IPA doesn't need to be all dank and piney hops like some people think, some citrus brightens it up and provides a counterpoint that I feel enhances rather than muddling the brew.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I think that belgian candi sugar makes for a good compromise between the two camps (dry vs. Crystal). Since you are already probably going into the 40 SRM range using a super dark candi sugar will give some unfermentable sugars that leave some dark fruit and caramel character without being sweet and overpowering.

After trying a dark homemade candi sugar and some special B in a black IPA the beer turned into a RIS after a couple months when the hops started to drop. The "no crystal malt" crowd is giving the advice because of the danger of the beer becoming an American Stout or a hoppy stout in general. The "dry it out with sugar" crowd is advising this because a sticky black IPA is really unenjoyable. High mash temp, belgian candi sugar and good attenuation I think gives a good balance(just my personal experiences with the style) you still get the high hop character with some of the roasty chocolate coffee malt character, easy to drink and refreshing.

My personal experience with brewing the style I don't think Crystal malt is necessary when you use a good malty base malt (I like an American Pale Ale malt), mash high, some dark candi sugar and some basic cane sugar to help lower the overall final gravity, and a good pitch of a yeast with decent attenuation character gets a good black IPA.

It's a tough style and everyone's got an opinion. Too much body you have a hoppy stout. Too much roast and you are drinking an ash tray. Too sweet and you have a sticky bitter mess. Not enough hops and low roast you have a bland American stout. I brewed almost 25 recipes of just off the cuff writing my own recipes that were 1/3rd crap, 1/3rd meh, and 1/3rd "hey that's almost decent", I've had more fun coming up with my own recipes and making mistakes because I wrote all those recipes myself and learned a TON about recipe formulation and about my own personal tastes.

So when I say it's just my opinion, it's just that. Everyone else is similar (unless they're posting an award winning recipe. We are posting our opinions and interpretations, and personal tastes, about the black IPA style. So in the end brew what you want, it'll still be beer and will probably still be delicious (or at least get you drunk).

I interpret the style as a midway between an American IPA and a Double IPA in terms of ABV and IBU/hop character, then you add roasted malts for coffee/bittersweet chocolate/dry roastiness on top. Make your beer and taste it when it's done, tastes more like a stout call it a stout, or call it whatever you want if you are just brewing for yourself.

 

[FatDragon]

I think that belgian candi sugar makes for a good compromise between the two camps (dry vs. Crystal). Since you are already probably going into the 40 SRM range using a super dark candi sugar will give some unfermentable sugars that leave some dark fruit and caramel character without being sweet and overpowering.

After trying a dark homemade candi sugar and some special B in a black IPA the beer turned into a RIS after a couple months when the hops started to drop. The "no crystal malt" crowd is giving the advice because of the danger of the beer becoming an American Stout or a hoppy stout in general. The "dry it out with sugar" crowd is advising this because a sticky black IPA is really unenjoyable. High mash temp, belgian candi sugar and good attenuation I think gives a good balance(just my personal experiences with the style) you still get the high hop character with some of the roasty chocolate coffee malt character, easy to drink and refreshing.

My personal experience with brewing the style I don't think Crystal malt is necessary when you use a good malty base malt (I like an American Pale Ale malt), mash high, some dark candi sugar and some basic cane sugar to help lower the overall final gravity, and a good pitch of a yeast with decent attenuation character gets a good black IPA.

It's a tough style and everyone's got an opinion. Too much body you have a hoppy stout. Too much roast and you are drinking an ash tray. Too sweet and you have a sticky bitter mess. Not enough hops and low roast you have a bland American stout. I brewed almost 25 recipes of just off the cuff writing my own recipes that were 1/3rd crap, 1/3rd meh, and 1/3rd "hey that's almost decent", I've had more fun coming up with my own recipes and making mistakes because I wrote all those recipes myself and learned a TON about recipe formulation and about my own personal tastes.

So when I say it's just my opinion, it's just that. Everyone else is similar (unless they're posting an award winning recipe. We are posting our opinions and interpretations, and personal tastes, about the black IPA style. So in the end brew what you want, it'll still be beer and will probably still be delicious (or at least get you drunk).

I interpret the style as a midway between an American IPA and a Double IPA in terms of ABV and IBU/hop character, then you add roasted malts for coffee/bittersweet chocolate/dry roastiness on top. Make your beer and taste it when it's done, tastes more like a stout call it a stout, or call it whatever you want if you are just brewing for yourself.

Excellent advice all around. Specifically, I thought about suggesting homemade candi sugar/syrup in my posts, but decided I didn't want to overcomplicate my advice so I kept it out. However, I'm right with you there - candi sugar is a great way to add complex caramel flavors while also drying a beer out. I used a small amount (<8 oz.) in my last black IPA and was very pleased with the result, and I feel like it's an excellent addition to an RIS as well even if most people advise against sugar in an RIS to avoid drying it out.