Big IPA still cloudy..

[Olrummum]

Hi there, I recently posted about a DIPA that i needed advice with, see below..

Hi there, I've currently got a 38 litre / 10 US gallon all grain DIPA on the go in my 14g SS chronical and would like your opinions on what I should do next, regarding dry hopping, yeast dumping, cooling, etc.

The OG was: 1.078, 11 days ago

3 days ago it was: 1.016

I mashed it low at 64 degrees c / 147 degrees f

I used: 2 smack packs wyeast 1272 (No starter.)
2 packs dry West Coast yeast, re-hydrated

It was fermented at: 20 degrees c / 70 degrees f. for 12 days
then raised to 22 / 71.6 degrees f (which it's been at for 5 days)

I thought it might have settled down so I attempted to slowly dump some yeast out on Saturday just gone, (temp was 71.6 degrees f)
I slowly opened the bottom valve but only beer came out- hardly any yeast. Now I know they say the yeast can stick to the sides but I really thought there would at least be some initially yeast in the very base of the cone?

That's when I took a hydrometer sample and it showed the beer was sitting at 1.016 and still very yeasty. I've kept the sample in the kitchen and it's now down to 1.012 and clearing.

I was going to dry hop columbus and/ or chinook pellets at this point but decided it needed more time to let the yeast do it's work before I interfere with it any more.

I'm weighing up the options with cold crashing, etc but I'm worried that by cooling then it might cause it to floc out that lovely hoppy fruitiness that the 1272 gives?

So in a nutshell..

1) When should I dry hop?
2) If I cold crash then when and at what temperature and will it affect the fruity aroma and taste?
3) I like the idea of burping co2 through the dump valve to really get the best aroma but do I need to crash the temp to drop the yeast first? I don't like the idea of hops and yeast blowing around inside the fermenter.
4) When should I next take a hydrometer sample?
5) Can I bottle straight from the Chronical or should I transfer to a bottling bucket?

Cheers with any help you guys (or gals) can give me!
Ollie.



Back to today:
I just checked the gravity and it's at 1.012, so like the hydrometer sample from last time (which terminated at 1.012), it looks like it's done.
However the beer still appears very clouded up with yeast- (I did run off some first to allow for any yeast that might have settled in the racking cane). Do you think it just needs more time or should I cold crash it? I'm in no rush but it just seems like it should be clearing by now. Just to recap..

10 gallon batch DIPA.
Mash temp: 147 deg f
OG: 1.078
FG: 1.012
Yeast: 2x wyeast 1272 and 2x packets of dried west coast yeast.

14 gallon ss chronical in a fermentation chamber.

Sorry if this is something that's been asked on here before but I couldn't see any other threads like it.
Thanks for any help guys!


UPDATE..

So yesterday I bottled the beer- turns out the racking cane was sitting in the yeast in the cone of my conical fermenter!
Even when I rotated it right up, it only just poked it's head out of the cack.
Beer tastes really good, hoppy as hell and strong with a good bitterness but there is a sweetness/ richness which I didn't taste before dry hopping- OG was 1.078
FG was 1.012

Could this be due to the hop oils from all those dry hops?

Will the beer dry out a bit when the dextrose carbonates the bottles?

I'll welcome your thoughts on it thanks!

Cheers Ollie. :

 

[max384]

How long ago did you put your beer in the fermenter? How long has the gravity been stable? Did you already dry hop?

If it were me, and the gravity has been stable for a few days, I'd dry hop now (if you have not already done so), leave it a few more days, then cold crash. I'm a big believer in long cold crashes for clearing beer. Minimum is two days, but I usually try to leave it for a week... Nice clear beer this way.

 

[Olrummum]

How long ago did you put your beer in the fermenter? How long has the gravity been stable? Did you already dry hop?

If it were me, and the gravity has been stable for a few days, I'd dry hop now (if you have not already done so), leave it a few more days, then cold crash. I'm a big believer in long cold crashes for clearing beer. Minimum is two days, but I usually try to leave it for a week... Nice clear beer this way.

Cheers max-

It's been in the fermenter for 22 days now and It's been having a good dicetyl rest at 72 deg for a week now.
the gravity's been stable about 4 days. Why do you think it's still so cloudy?

I haven't dry hopped yet, was thinking maybe I should get it done now whilst there's still some activity going on?

I'm wondering whether to:
A) crash it, dump the yeast, raise temp back up to 165-170, then dry hop?
B) Chuck the hops in now then crash the lot?
C) Leave it warm for a while and hope it clears naturally, then use hop aroma oil in each bottle, (I've done this before and it worked really well).

Cheers for your input

 

[day_trippr]

What was the hop schedule on this brew?
If it involved a lot of FO and WP hops it might explain the cloudiness.
A few recipes I do (Alchemist clones) never clear...A Good Thing

Cheers!

 

[max384]

Cheers max-

It's been in the fermenter for 22 days now and It's been having a good dicetyl rest at 72 deg for a week now.
the gravity's been stable about 4 days. Why do you think it's still so cloudy?

I haven't dry hopped yet, was thinking maybe I should get it done now whilst there's still some activity going on?

I'm wondering whether to:
A) crash it, dump the yeast, raise temp back up to 165-170, then dry hop?
B) Chuck the hops in now then crash the lot?
C) Leave it warm for a while and hope it clears naturally, then use hop aroma oil in each bottle, (I've done this before and it worked really well).

Cheers for your input

My vote is B. As far as option A, dry hopping can cause beer haziness, so if you're already struggling with haziness, I would avoid this option... And I assume you mean 65 to 70 degrees, not 165-170?

 

[Olrummum]

What was the hop schedule on this brew?
If it involved a lot of FO and WP hops it might explain the cloudiness.
A few recipes I do (Alchemist clones) never clear...A Good Thing

Cheers!

Cheers fella- here's the hop schedule for 10 gallons (38 litres)

Mins Hop Type Ounces Alpha Acids
60 Bravo Whole leaf 1.4 14
60 Columbus Pellet 1.8 13.8
30 Columbus Pellet 1.7 13.8
30 Columbus Pellet 0.4 10
0 Ahtanum Pellet 3.5 5.5
0 Columbus Pellet 3.5 15.1
0 Columbus Pellet 1.5 10

 

[Olrummum]

My vote is B. As far as option A, dry hopping can cause beer haziness, so if you're already struggling with haziness, I would avoid this option... And I assume you mean 65 to 70 degrees, not 165-170?

Yes B seems like my favoured option and yes sorry I meant 65-70! Cheers!

 

[day_trippr]

Cheers fella- here's the hop schedule for 10 gallons (38 litres)

Mins Hop Type Ounces Alpha Acids
60 Bravo Whole leaf 1.4 14
60 Columbus Pellet 1.8 13.8
30 Columbus Pellet 1.7 13.8
30 Columbus Pellet 0.4 10
0 Ahtanum Pellet 3.5 5.5
0 Columbus Pellet 3.5 15.1
0 Columbus Pellet 1.5 10

Given the lack of differentiation I'm guessing the 0 min hops are your dry hops, so that shoots a hole in my theory.

Both WY1272 and BRY-97 (guessing the latter) are med-high floc'ers, and by now I'd expect them to have pretty much dropped, so I'm not so sure you're looking at yeast haze.

Anything unusual in the grist?

Cheers!

 

[Olrummum]

Given the lack of differentiation I'm guessing the 0 min hops are your dry hops, so that shoots a hole in my theory.

Both WY1272 and BRY-97 (guessing the latter) are med-high floc'ers, and by now I'd expect them to have pretty much dropped, so I'm not so sure you're looking at yeast haze.

Anything unusual in the grist?

Cheers!

No fella the 0 hops are the whirlpool additions, I'm trying to figure out the best option for dry hopping. I put the hydrometer sample in the fridge two days ago and the yeast has dropped but now I'm left with a chill haze. Annoying as I mashed and sparged really carefully, added enough Irish Moss and had no apparent issues with the hot break. I can live with a haze ,as long as the flavour/aroma is good, but want to learn how to prevent it happening next time if anyone has any opinions?
Cheers.

 

[Olrummum]

Also I'll just add I use a big plate chiller that got the brew down to 66 degrees in 10 ish minutes.

 

[tooldudetool]

I would add the dry hops asap, give them 3 days or so, dump your yeast, then cold crash and use gelatin. For an ipa (or dipa) at 25 days after brewing, I would already have that puppy on tap. There's no reason to put all that effort (and money) into a delicious hoppy IPA and then let it sit around that long... that wonderful hop character fades so quickly. I usually ferment for a week, add the dry hops, leave them in for 3 days, cold crash for 1-2 days, add gelatin, wait 2 more days, then keg... for an IPA I try to get it on tap asap after kegging. If you have never tried using gelatin to clear your beer before, you will be amazed!! It's super easy to do and super effective, and obviously clear beer is important enough to you that you would let a dipa sit for almost a month in the fermenter, so I say try it!

 

[Olrummum]

I would add the dry hops asap, give them 3 days or so, dump your yeast, then cold crash and use gelatin. For an ipa (or dipa) at 25 days after brewing, I would already have that puppy on tap. There's no reason to put all that effort (and money) into a delicious hoppy IPA and then let it sit around that long... that wonderful hop character fades so quickly. I usually ferment for a week, add the dry hops, leave them in for 3 days, cold crash for 1-2 days, add gelatin, wait 2 more days, then keg... for an IPA I try to get it on tap asap after kegging. If you have never tried using gelatin to clear your beer before, you will be amazed!! It's super easy to do and super effective, and obviously clear beer is important enough to you that you would let a dipa sit for almost a month in the fermenter, so I say try it!

Cheers for your help fella- the columbus and chinook pellets for DH are out of the freezer as we speak, about to be put in the fermenter! I've also ordered some gelatin, as I'm hearing about it a lot, so that's what I shall use. yeah I guess 4 weeks is a long time but I've always read that it's important to give the yeast enough time to clean up after themselves. I guess I'm thinking an 8.5% DIPA needs a fair bit of time compared with say a 5.5% IPA? When I've bottled big IPA's before they actually seemed to improve after a few weeks bottle conditioning and lagering at 38-42 degrees f. Is it different when you serve from a keg?

 

[tooldudetool]

Well generally speaking you will get fresher, less oxidized beer from kegging since you don't have to keep your beer at room temp for two weeks as it carbonates. There is something to be said for the active yeast scavenging oxygen during the bottle conditioning phase, but again, time is the enemy of fresh hoppy beers (as is oxygen), and warmer storage temps cause oxidation to happen much more quickly than colder storage temps. The trick to getting the yeast to clean up after themselves quicker is to increase fermentation temperature by about 5 degrees or so 4-5 days after pitching. At that point you won't create any of the fusel alcohols or unpleasant esters that come from too warm of an initial fermentation (those compounds are generated in the first 3 days or so of fermentation), but you will cause the yeast to work much more quickly cleaning up and fully attenuating. If you are able to do that you should be able to package the beer 8-10 days after pitching. What I do is similar to what they do over at brulosophy.com (a great site to explore if you haven't before) Here's a link to their fermentation schedule: http://brulosophy.com/methods/fermentation-schedules/

Cheers and good luck!

 

[Olrummum]

Well generally speaking you will get fresher, less oxidized beer from kegging since you don't have to keep your beer at room temp for two weeks as it carbonates. There is something to be said for the active yeast scavenging oxygen during the bottle conditioning phase, but again, time is the enemy of fresh hoppy beers (as is oxygen), and warmer storage temps cause oxidation to happen much more quickly than colder storage temps. The trick to getting the yeast to clean up after themselves quicker is to increase fermentation temperature by about 5 degrees or so 4-5 days after pitching. At that point you won't create any of the fusel alcohols or unpleasant esters that come from too warm of an initial fermentation (those compounds are generated in the first 3 days or so of fermentation), but you will cause the yeast to work much more quickly cleaning up and fully attenuating. If you are able to do that you should be able to package the beer 8-10 days after pitching. What I do is similar to what they do over at brulosophy.com (a great site to explore if you haven't before) Here's a link to their fermentation schedule: http://brulosophy.com/methods/fermentation-schedules/

Cheers and good luck!

Cheers fella- there's some really good advice there. I did increase the temp towards the end of fermentation to help things. I've done a lot of reading up on brewing and general beer literature but it's now time to put that into practice! I think reading about stuff can only get you so far- nothing beats hands on experience- I'm now starting my journey I suppose! Kegging is something I really want to get in to- in fact I've just moved to a new house and the garage is going to be my 'man cave'! I'm hoping to turn it into a mini brewery, bar, come games area. I recently upgraded my smaller plastic fermenter type, extract brewing set up to a bigger stainless rig but I need to learn how to make the best of it! That's one of the reasons I wanted to join this forum because there's so much knowledge on here.
Cheers, Ollie! :fro:

 

[wilserbrewer]

Clearing an IPA can be a challenge ime

Longer times at cold temps will help, as will gelatin.

Gelatin can perhaps also drop some of the hoppy flavor.

I pay a lot of money for some cloudy IPA at the pub, so I don't stress it at home.

Time and temperature clears, and fresh beer is sometimes not clear.

That's all I got.

 

[Olrummum]

Clearing an IPA can be a challenge ime

Longer times at cold temps will help, as will gelatin.

Gelatin can perhaps also drop some of the hoppy flavor.

I pay a lot of money for some cloudy IPA at the pub, so I don't stress it at home.

Time and temperature clears, and fresh beer is sometimes not clear.

That's all I got.

I hear you fella- I've never been that bothered about crystal clear beer but they sell gelatin sheets at the brewing store I use so I thought I'd give it a go.
Cheers!

 

[Olrummum]

UPDATE..

So yesterday I bottled the beer- turns out the racking cane was sitting in the yeast in the cone of my conical fermenter!
Even when I rotated it right up, it only just poked it's head out of the cack.
Beer tastes really good, hoppy as hell and strong with a good bitterness but there is a sweetness/ richness which I didn't taste before dry hopping- OG was 1.078
FG was 1.012

Could this be due to the hop oils from all those dry hops?

Will the beer dry out a bit when the dextrose carbonates the bottles?

I'll welcome your thoughts on it thanks!

Cheers Ollie.

 

[tooldudetool]

My guess is the sweetness is oxidized hops... it seems strange, but oxidized American hops get a stale sweetness to them as very hoppy beers age. I notice the same flavor develop in my ipas after they have been on tap for a month or so. Buy an old commercial IPA from a grocery store (especially if they don't store them cold) and you will probably taste a similar taste. As I mentioned before, freshness is key with very hoppy beers, as well as keeping oxygen as far away from the finished beer as possible. You should be drinking your IPA two to four weeks after brewday, much later than that and the hop character will fade and change... cheers!

 

[Olrummum]

Cheers again dude- I guess it could be, although I was fastidious with my transferring. All the hops were stored in a freezer and opened at the last minute (I never use hops that have been previously opened.)
They do say though how easy it is though for oxygen to sneak right in and spoil the party so I wouldn't rule it out.