BIAB issues: weak & flavorless

[ong]

Hi, there --

I brewed about 10 extract batches, and was continually surprised how great they turned out. Then I decided to switch to BIAB, to get a bit more control and start experimenting more.

So far I've done 7 or 8 all grain batches (a couple still fermenting/conditioning). The darker ones, like a milk stout and a brown ale, came out OK. All the pale/amber ales that I've done, however, have been really weak, "light" tasting, and really just kind of boring. This includes two attempts at an all-grain version of an extract recipe I loved.

I'm using Beersmith 2, have it set to 65% efficiency, get reasonable OG hydrometer readings (fairly close to my target)... but somehow these just aren't turning out great.

There's not a really noticeable (to me) defect... but I get very little hops character, very little malt character -- it's like I've invented PBR. Which I hate.

Any thoughts? Thanks!

 

[BrewKnurd]

Could be water. If everything else is the same, water is one of those things that becomes more important with all grain.

 

[ong]

I picked up a Corona mill and a 55 lb. sack of two-row right when I started doing all-grain. The crack looks pretty good, but just to try to eliminate variables, I just brewed a Golden Promise/Chinook SMaSH using grain milled by my LHBS, to see if that came out any better. It's still gurgling away. I'm hoping if that one comes out better, it will give me some clues about what's going wrong with my process (i.e., the crush, the base malt choice).

 

[Sippin37]

I would think it is related to your water as well. Might want to make sure mash ph is in, or close to, the recommended range. There are plenty of resources here that explain it in more detail.

 

[jammin]

post your recipe and process, chief

 

[RM-MN]

I picked up a Corona mill and a 55 lb. sack of two-row right when I started doing all-grain. The crack looks pretty good, but just to try to eliminate variables, I just brewed a Golden Promise/Chinook SMaSH using grain milled by my LHBS, to see if that came out any better. It's still gurgling away. I'm hoping if that one comes out better, it will give me some clues about what's going wrong with my process (i.e., the crush, the base malt choice).

How tight did you set your Corona mill? Since you are doing BIAB, you aren't looking for the grain to be cracked, you want it to be like corn meal (maybe coarse corn meal). You have a bag with lots of surface to filter so you don't need the nice husks to form a filter bed. Try again with the mill set so tight that when it is empty the mill surfaces are rubbing together. Then set the software for 75% efficiency and brew away.

 

[ArcLight]

+10 on the water

+1 on the crush

Also, did you hit your mash temperatures? Are you sure? Did you double check with 2-3 thermometers?

Might there have been temperature differentials in your mash kettle? For example, the grains at the bottom may be much hotter than you think, if a little heat was applied, and the mash wasn't properly mixed. This is not uncommon.

 

[ong]

Hmm, thanks for the feedback.

Water here in Portland OR is very very neutral -- are you suggesting maybe adding more dissolved minerals? Burton salts, or something along those lines?

I have been doing a relatively fine crush, but not to the cornmeal level. I'll try a test batch at that very fine crush. I did use two thermometers to confirm mash temps, and I've been clipping the bag to the pot and really stirring thoroughly when I dough in.

What's confounding me is that the hydrometer readings seem about right, but the beers are coming out so low in flavor and body. I think I need to start reducing variables... Maybe I'll try a very conservative batch with a simple, known good recipe from this site.

EDIT: found a couple good threads about Portland water treatment, especially https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/portland-brewing-water-treatment-154097/index4.html

 

[ong]

Ok, last few batches have been better: a best bitter, an English single-hop IPA with fresh picked Goldings, and a IIPA. I pretty much changed a lot of variables at once, so I'm not sure which were the problems:

1) I stopped repitching yeast, using a fresh culture each time
2) I amended my very neutral water
3) I stopped using the discount pellet hops that I was a little suspicious of (tasted a few and they were remarkably non bitter, even the 12.9% Galena)
4) started covering my fermenters to rule out skunking
5) started grinding very fine -- like coarse cornmeal
6) got a lot more particular about mash temps -- I noticed that temperatures continued to rise for a few minutes after I turned off my burner

I suspect it was probably a combination of many of these things. Thanks for all your input!