Best Yeast for a Fruit-forward Kettle Sour

[Upthewazzu]

My apologies if this has been asked a million times, this is my first foray into the world of sour beers. My plan is to do a kettle sour (using Yeast Bay lacto blend) with a simple grain bill (something like 90% 2-row, 5% white wheat, and 5% vienna) and then age on apricots.

Is there a particular mash temp that works better than others for sour beers (i.e. 148° vs 156°)?

However, I'm wondering what yeast I should be using to ferment before adding the fruit. Most posts suggest US-05, which is fine, I guess, but maybe something like 1318 would be better? I don't know!

Also, I generally never use a secondary, but would one be recommended here for aging the sour beer on the apricots?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is there a particular mash temp that works better than others for sour beers

Nope, anything Gose.

However, I'm wondering what yeast I should be using to ferment before adding the fruit. Most posts suggest US-05, which is fine, I guess, but maybe something like 1318 would be better?

Again, anything goes.
This guy used 1318 http://www.laundrybrewing.com/2017/02/mosaic-quick-sour.html?m=1
Higher pitch rates are generally recommended for pH under 3.5, but I'm not sure how important that really is.
I pitch high or add nutrient just to be safe.

Also, I generally never use a secondary, but would one be recommended here for aging the sour beer on the apricots?

I don't make fruit beer myself but people almost always use secondary for fruit additions.
Off the top of my head, I'd say using a secondary 1. provides more physical space for the fruit, and 2. you don't have to worry about the lees absorbing any of the flavor or 3. contributing autolysis flavors depending on the length of aging.

Cheers

 

[ong]

I just made one I’m enjoying. I had prepared a starter of the White Labs kolsch yeast, but the starter tasted so weird I dumped it and used a 1318 pitch I had lying around. 1318 seems to give it a really nice effervescence — I know that sounds odd, but there’s a brightness to the finished beer I wasn’t expecting, even above the bracing acidity.

 

[Upthewazzu]

So I'm thinking I'll go with either Wyeast 1318 or Saflager W-34/70. Anything opinions?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I had prepared a starter of the White Labs kolsch yeast, but the starter tasted so weird I dumped it and used a 1318 pitch I had lying around.

Off topic, but that's better than what recently happened my starter...
I was screwing the lid back on the jar after smelling it. It slipped out of my hand, shattered on the counter, and splattered all over my kitchen including a few appliances. Somehow my hand got cut too. Glass fragments everywhere
Good thing I had some extra US-05 in the fridge.

@Upthewazzu probably the 1318. Yeast character is desirable imo.

 

[Upthewazzu]

OK, another stupid question. Do I need to make a starter for the Lacto? It'll be a 3.5 gallon batch.

 

[TwistedGray]

OK, another stupid question. Do I need to make a starter for the Lacto? It'll be a 3.5 gallon batch.

A starter is not necessary.

 

[bigdawg86]

For what it's worth I am cold crashing a raspberry kettle sour that was fermented hot (100°) with TYB Voss Kviek. The hydrometer sample was pleasantly fruit forward so I am excited to see how it turns out. That yeast is very versatile. My only observation is that is poops out at 81-82% attenuation so it may not be ideal if you want a very dry beer. My lowest was 79% and my best was 83%.

 

[mirthfuldragon]

However, I'm wondering what yeast I should be using to ferment before adding the fruit. Most posts suggest US-05, which is fine, I guess, but maybe something like 1318 would be better? I don't know!?

I used Omega's DIPA yeast (Conan/Vermont Ale yeast - which is probably the same or close to 1318) and even with a starter it did not attenuate as well as I like. FG was ~1.014. The kettle sour was part of a split batch (the other half was not soured, and the yeast took it down to 1.010). The taste was fine (in the keg carbonating now), but I had hoped it would go a little lower (1.008). Mash was 90 minutes at 148-149°. YMMV.

 

[couchsending]

1318 and Conan are very different yeasts.

001/1056/US05 or 1007 are great strains for anything kettle sour related. They don’t struggle with acidity and attenuate every time. A slightly higher pitch will help and/or some enzymes.

 

[Upthewazzu]

1318 and Conan are very different yeasts.

001/1056/US05 or 1007 are great strains for anything kettle sour related. They don’t struggle with acidity and attenuate every time. A slightly higher pitch will help and/or some enzymes.

I actually have some 1007 in the fridge, so I think I'll use that one! Thanks.

 

[Biobrewer]

If you make a starter for the Lacto Blend, be sure to add 1 g/L of CaCO3 to prevent the pH from dropping to much while propagating!

Any fruit forward Saison/Farmhouse culture would work well. Wallonian II, Saison Blend I, and Sigmund's Voss Kveik come to mind from our cultures.

There is someone recently that used our new Hazy blend, Hazy Daze, for a kettle sour and apparently it turned out really well. Definitely not something I would have immediately thought, my mind goes to Saison yeast. The joy of experimentation!

 

[RPh_Guy]

If you make a starter for the Lacto Blend, be sure to add 1 g/L of CaCO3 to prevent the pH from dropping to much while propagating!

If you have cell count data with different amounts of chalk, I'd love to see!
Most sources are still suggesting 20g/L

 

[Biobrewer]

If you have cell count data with different amounts of chalk, I'd love to see!
Most sources are still suggesting 20g/L

20 g/L is insanely high, though I know some recommend:

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Lactobacillus

Scroll down to starter procedure. I recommended 1.5-2 at most, as do other yeast folks like Jeff from Bootleg. I have recently been recommending even a little less, really 1-2 will do the trick though. If you make a 2L starter and add 40 g CaCO3 and pitch that into your beer, that 40 g is going to have a massive effect on the ability to achieve a lower pH quickly. Adding considerably less in the starter will achieve the same effect of maintaining a higher pH in the starter while not being excessive as to effect the final product.

Or, you can also just get MRS media. It comes out to ~$10/L. It is properly buffered for optimal cell growth (with an actual buffer system) and will not affect the ability of Lacto to do its thing in the final beer.

 

[PoppinCaps]

20g is a ton, and outdated. Doesn't hurt anything, but is a huge waste, and can be hard to separate if the lacto is allowed to settle before pitching. You can avoid adding it at all if you keep the starter around 1.010. Lacto doesn't need much in the way of sugar to propagate, and pH drop is for the most part proportional to gravity. At least for plantarum and brevis.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for the feedback! I was a little surprised by both of your responses since I imagine the use of 20g/L is pretty widespread as it's endorsed by both MTF and sourbeerblog.

If 1-2g/L can maintain pH >4.2 that's all I need.
I'll give it a try next time and see how it goes! I can't do cell counts but I can measure pH.

....
Some other thoughts I'm trying to reconcile:

Sam Aeschlimann published his experiment in 2015 and it's the only LAB starter growth rate experiment I can find applicable to brewing. Outdated? IDK but he calculated the amount needed to buffer 1-2% lactic acid.

If I have my chemistry together, it should look something like: CaCO3{s} + 2 CH3CH(OH)COOH{aq} > Ca-lactate{aq} + H2CO3 ....
20 g CaCO3 (= 0.2 mol) can neutralize 0.4 mol of lactic acid (= 36 g, approx. 3.6%), As far as I know, a good souring by LABs can produce up to 1-2% of lactic acid (= 10-20 g of lactic acid in total). With the 20g of CaCO3, I am still in a green zone of buffering.
....
I never tried anything else than 20 g. Just keep in mind that 5 g would only capture a 1/4 of the lactic acid (36/4 = 9 g per liter, 0.9%).

Excess chalk is left in the starter flask (the liquid is decanted), so it shouldn't affect beer quality.

From what I've read the bacteria do not settle, so using just the liquid portion of the starter shouldn't affect pitching rate.

I've heard MRS media tastes terrible. Do breweries pitch this?

I haven't heard that Lacto pH change is proportional to wort gravity. This doesn't make sense to me. The only thing I could imagine that would cause that is nutrient depletion. Are you adding nutrient? L. brevis requires thiamine. Boiling may destroy thiamine.

How would chalk added to beer affect the sour taste? From my understanding it would taste considerably more sour if it had a higher buffering capacity. We don't taste pH, but rather the amount of acid and it salts (measured via TA). Chalk buffering theoretically would let the Lacto produce a lot more lactate via the same mechanism we use it in the starter.

Please let me know if any of this is wrong. I'd hate to give bad advice. Thanks again!
Cheers

 

[Biobrewer]

Thanks for the feedback! I was a little surprised by both of your responses since I imagine the use of 20g/L is pretty widespread as it's endorsed by both MTF and sourbeerblog.

If 1-2g/L can maintain pH >4.2 that's all I need.
I'll give it a try next time and see how it goes! I can't do cell counts but I can measure pH.

....
Some other thoughts I'm trying to reconcile:

Sam Aeschlimann published his experiment in 2015 and it's the only LAB starter growth rate experiment I can find applicable to brewing. Outdated? IDK but he calculated the amount needed to buffer 1-2% lactic acid.


Excess chalk is left in the starter flask (the liquid is decanted), so it shouldn't affect beer quality.

From what I've read the bacteria do not settle, so using just the liquid portion of the starter shouldn't affect pitching rate.

I've heard MRS media tastes terrible. Do breweries pitch this?

I haven't heard that Lacto pH change is proportional to wort gravity. This doesn't make sense to me. The only thing I could imagine that would cause that is nutrient depletion. Are you adding nutrient? L. brevis requires thiamine. Boiling may destroy thiamine.

How would chalk added to beer affect the sour taste? From my understanding it would taste considerably more sour if it had a higher buffering capacity. We don't taste pH, but rather the amount of acid and it salts (measured via TA). Chalk buffering theoretically would let the Lacto produce a lot more lactate via the same mechanism we use it in the starter.

Please let me know if any of this is wrong. I'd hate to give bad advice. Thanks again!
Cheers

CaCO3 will actually react with the acidic protons (which are what we perceive as acidic tasting) and the lactate to form calcium lactate (a salt) and carbonic acid (which will readily become carbon dioxide and water). This reaction will drive up the pH until all of the CaCO3 is consumed, at which point if the lactic acid bacteria are still highly metabolically active they will continue to produce more lactic acid which would drive the pH back down. Ideally you want to minimize major pH fluctuation, which is why a media containing a true buffer like MRS is ideal, as it is intended to maintain a specific pH even in the presence of a lot of acid production.

MRS media does taste wretched, but it is diluted out so much you will not taste it. For commercial brewers, an example is 2 L of propagation into a 10 bbl batch (~ 1,173 L). That makes the media 1/588th or 0.17% of the total volume, which is negligible. Not to mention the fact that a lot of the molecules that make the media taste gross will be taken up and utilized by the yeast during active fermentation.

 

[Upthewazzu]

FWIW, I went with WY1007. I used the "hybrid" setting on yeastcalc.com for my starter. It's chugging away quite nicely less than 24 hours post-pitch @ 64°.

I did manager to screw up the mash temp. It was supposed to be 150°, ended up at 155°. Hopefully it won't affect the FG too much. With the addition of apricot puree, I assume that will dry it out even more anyways. Will update when complete.

 

[secondbase]

wlp644 is the best fruity yeast to use for kettle sours. It throws a ton of tropical and stone fruit at higher temps. I don't even bother with anything else.

 

[Upthewazzu]

wlp644 is the best fruity yeast to use for kettle sours. It throws a ton of tropical and stone fruit at higher temps. I don't even bother with anything else.

My apologies for the stupid question, but are you saying you kettle sour with WLP644, or age it on that yeast and kettle sour with lacto? If the former, how long do you usually let it ferment and have you ever fermented in a barrel?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Lacto (bacteria) makes wort sour*.
Yeast makes wort into beer.

WLP644 is yeast

I'd like to know the best temp schedule for 644 in sours if willing to share.

The only stupid question is the one not asked!

*Caveat

 

[Upthewazzu]

Lacto (bacteria) makes wort sour*.
Yeast makes wort into beer.

WLP644 is yeast

I'd like to know the best temp schedule for 644 in sours if willing to share.

The only stupid question is the one not asked!

*Caveat

Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking that after I typed it all out, but went ahead and hit submit anyways.

I'm still curious what kind of time-frame I'd be looking at with that yeast, as well as @RPh_Guy's question about temperature.

EDIT: old thread but tons of great info here

 

[Upthewazzu]

To put a final nail in this thread, the 1007 yeast did a fantastic job. The sour turned out really really well using the Yeast Bay's lacto blend to kettle sour and Wyeast 1007 to ferment, with apricot puree added to the secondary. It's a touch sweeter than I would have liked, but I blame that on my high mash temp.

 

[TwistedGray]

How long are you going to age it @Upthewazzu

 

[Upthewazzu]

How long are you going to age it @Upthewazzu

I let it sit for a week on the apricot puree. Probably could have done one or two more weeks but I wanted to drink it

 

[TwistedGray]

I let it sit for a week on the apricot puree. Probably could have done one or two more weeks but I wanted to drink it

Mine is just past 12 months

 

[Upthewazzu]

Mine is just past 12 months

Was it a kettle sour? Cause that kinda defeats the point of a kettle sour.

 

[TwistedGray]

Was it a kettle sour? Cause that kinda defeats the point of a kettle sour.

Brain fart, I forgot this thread was about kettle souring, lol.