Benefiber

[GRBC]

Did you know that 10 grams of Kirkland Optifiber (benefiber) in 1000ml of water increases the measured gravity by about 5 gravity units (1.000 to 1.005)?

Curious as to why? My understanding is that benefiber is not sugar. Wonder what the carbohydrate is and if it is a starch that can be mashed and fermented.

 

[Pappers_]

 

[ancientmariner52]

If I understand specific gravity correctly, anything dissolved or suspended in a liquid will increase the specific gravity. Our hydrometers and refractometers are calibrated to be accurate when measuring sugar in water, but they will respond to anything. We use a sugar refractometer to measure the concentration of cutting fluid in our cnc machine tools. We know full well that it is not accurate, but we also know what indication range gives good performance, so it all works out.

 

[freisste]

Dissolved. Not suspended. Correct me if I am wrong. Ie, sugar, salt, alcohol, etc. it has to be a solution. Yeast on the other hand (suspended, not dissolved), will not affect gravity measurements.

 

[ancientmariner52]

According to the Wikipedia entry for hydrometers, they are commonly used to measure clay and sediment percentages in soil analysis, when said particles are too small for a sieve. So no, suspended solids do not affect density of a fluid, aka specific gravity. They do, however, affect the hydrometer reading, and therefore appear to affect s.g. For our purposes the effect is evidently negligible, but it's there, nevertheless.

 

[JimRausch]

List of ingredients says it is wheat dextrin.
Dextrins are nonfermentable sugars. Think of dextrin malt or carapils. They will contribute to OG, but like lactose will still be there after fermentation is completed. So if they raise your OG by 5 points, so will your FG.
At least that's my understanding. I welcome a correction if I'm wrong.

 

[mabrungard]

I believe Jim is correct. The Carb is wheat dextrin. If that stuff is added to a mash, the enzymes might be able to cleave the dextrin into fermentables.

 

[GRBC]

I believe Jim is correct. The Carb is wheat dextrin. If that stuff is added to a mash, the enzymes might be able to cleave the dextrin into fermentables.

We’ll find out! I added “1.020” benefiber “wort” to three sanitized bottles. One with just US05, one with US05 and a ground up beano tablet, and one with just beano. Will report back. Anyone want to make a prediction?

 

[ESBrewer]

Wheat dextrin would be hydrolyzed in the mash. If you add it post boil or create an artificial "wort" with it, Saccharomyces shouldn't be able to ferment it but some Brettanomyces strains may be able to do it. There could be a small amount of sugar among dextrins that gets fermented, though, depending on how carefully it has been purified. With enzymes such as amylase and maybe beano tablets it gets probably hydrolyzed and ferments given that there are all the critical yeasts nutrients in solution. But it won't make a beer..

All soluble carbohydrates will increase gravity (sugar or not) in aqueous solutions cause carbohydrates are more dense than water.

 

[GRBC]

Wheat dextrin would be hydrolyzed in the mash. If you add it post boil or create an artificial "wort" with it, Saccharomyces shouldn't be able to ferment it but some Brettanomyces strains may be able to do it. There could be a small amount of sugar among dextrins that gets fermented, though, depending on how carefully it has been purified. With enzymes such as amylase and maybe beano tablets it gets probably hydrolyzed and ferments given that there are all the critical yeasts nutrients in solution. But it won't make a beer..

All soluble carbohydrates will increase gravity (sugar or not) in aqueous solutions cause carbohydrates are more dense than water.

Looks like you are on the right track. From looking at the bottles it is apparent that the Yeast + Beano (left) is fermenting with visible krausen, etc. No fermentation is visually apparent in the yeast only bottle (middle), but it remains fairly cloudy, so maybe. The beano only bottle (right) looks clear and still. Will give them this week to do whatever they are going to do and measure gravities this weekend.

Will note that I am not trying to make benefiber beer. This all started because I am working on an experimental homebrew where I am attempting to brew a low carb brew. Perhaps for another post, but my thought is to get the low carb beer to fully attenuate (100%) from a relatively low OG wort (1.035 to <1.000) - ideally leaving no residual sugar/ unfermentable carbohydrates. Then use benefiber (and/or other things) to add back some of the missing mouthfeel/sweetness. Kind of like a really low FG session beer.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I'm nearly certain that essentially insoluble materials can still raise the indicated SG of a fluid when measured with a hydrometer.
My evidence is an imperial chocolate stout, where the dose of cocoa powder (which has zero sugar and ~160 grams of carbs in 8 ounces of powder) at the end of the boil jacks the hydro reading by almost 10 points versus a refractometer reading (which matches the recipe every time)...

Cheers!

 

[Zimm9]

Maybe I'm just not thinking clearly, but I'm really curious as to the purpose of your experiment?

 

[S-Met]

I'm frequently wrong, but isn't benefiber used to bulk-up your poop? I know some yeasty homebrews make for super poops, but I'm slightly concerned that intentionally adding insoluble fiber may result is a sh!tty beer (pun intended).

 

[corbmonster]

Dissolved. Not suspended. Correct me if I am wrong. Ie, sugar, salt, alcohol, etc. it has to be a solution. Yeast on the other hand (suspended, not dissolved), will not affect gravity measurements.

Anything suspended in solution will change the sg. If it falls out of solution, you won't see it anymore

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm frequently wrong, but isn't benefiber used to bulk-up your poop? I know some yeasty homebrews make for super poops, but I'm slightly concerned that intentionally adding insoluble fiber may result is a sh!tty beer (pun intended).

Good god yes. I was literally pregnant with this thought as I read the thread. Sweet release, thanks for posing the question.

 

[ESBrewer]

fwiw, I'm nearly certain that essentially insoluble materials can still raise the indicated SG of a fluid when measured with a hydrometer.
My evidence is an imperial chocolate stout, where the dose of cocoa powder (which has zero sugar and ~160 grams of carbs in 8 ounces of powder) at the end of the boil jacks the hydro reading by almost 10 points versus a refractometer reading (which matches the recipe every time)...

Cheers!

Yes, in that case hydrometer is going to measure the density of suspension and insoluble material will affect the readings. This can be used to analyze particles size in soil samples etc. But technically, insoluble material is not part of the solution so it shouldn't be considered when talking about 'density of the solution'. With enough time, insoluble particles in suspension will either fall to the bottom or rise to the surface, depending on particle density compared to The density of surrounding liquid.

There are also many soluble compounds that will decrease the gravity of water because they are not as dense as water. Ethanol is a prime example.

The product mentioned in the original post is soluble in water.

 

[madscientist451]

Will note that I am not trying to make benefiber beer. This all started because I am working on an experimental homebrew where I am attempting to brew a low carb brew. Perhaps for another post, but my thought is to get the low carb beer to fully attenuate (100%) from a relatively low OG wort (1.035 to <1.000) - ideally leaving no residual sugar/ unfermentable carbohydrates. Then use benefiber (and/or other things) to add back some of the missing mouthfeel/sweetness. Kind of like a really low FG session beer.

I'm not sure if benefiber is something you want in your beer.
How much benefiber is going to be in each bottle?
Some say that taking fiber supplements can have negative side affects:

https://www.livestrong.com/article/86007-use-benefiber/

 

[GRBC]

You guys are probably right that it might be too much fiber. If a pint is roughly 500ml (rounding up from 473ml), and my apparent attenuation is 100%, then a single serving size of 3.5 grams would only get me 1.5 gravity points in suspension. Which probably isn’t enough to matter. To get to the equivalent of a 1.010 FG, it would take 10 grams in a pint which is basically a full days worth of the recommended usage & imagine what would happen if you drank 3 or 12 pints!?

I figure that Bud Select 55 / Michelob Ultra, etc. are low carb formulations of fizzy yellow macro lager. Anyone have any suggestions to help me create a low carb homebrew formulation of craft beer? Or is it impossible?

 

[Pappers_]

You guys are probably right that it might be too much fiber. If a pint is roughly 500ml (rounding up from 473ml), and my apparent attenuation is 100%, then a single serving size of 3.5 grams would only get me 1.5 gravity points in suspension. Which probably isn’t enough to matter. To get to the equivalent of a 1.010 FG, it would take 10 grams in a pint which is basically a full days worth of the recommended usage & imagine what would happen if you drank 3 or 12 pints!?

I figure that Bud Select 55 / Michelob Ultra, etc. are low carb formulations of fizzy yellow macro lager. Anyone have any suggestions to help me create a low carb homebrew formulation of craft beer? Or is it impossible?

Very small grain bill. The low end of an American Light Lager recipe. Mash low so that the enzymes are able to hack away at the chains and make your beer as dry as possible. And no benefiber, please LOL.

 

[SFC Rudy]

In the motor pool we used hydrometers to measure antifreeze levels.

 

[ong]

I figure that Bud Select 55 / Michelob Ultra, etc. are low carb formulations of fizzy yellow macro lager. Anyone have any suggestions to help me create a low carb homebrew formulation of craft beer? Or is it impossible?

Well, maltodextrin would be the brewing equivalent for adding some points, sweetness, and mouthfeel to a low FG beer. Lactose can do the same thing. When I do ordinary bitters I like to use some specialty grains to leave more flavor and unfermentable sugars in the beer. I also mash on the high side, 154 or 156. But what I want is sort of the opposite of a dry American light macro lager.

 

[GRBC]

Well, maltodextrin would be the brewing equivalent for adding some points, sweetness, and mouthfeel to a low FG beer. Lactose can do the same thing. When I do ordinary bitters I like to use some specialty grains to leave more flavor and unfermentable sugars in the beer. I also mash on the high side, 154 or 156. But what I want is sort of the opposite of a dry American light macro lager.

Yeah, I don’t want any non-fermentable sugars - those are carbs. Hence no lactose, mashing-high, etc., which is what led me down the path of searching for a non-carbohydrate replacement for the missing body / mouthfeel (which I think greatly supports the sensation of sweetness). Maybe fiber (which is really a non-digestible carb, in the case of benefiber) isn’t the answer.

But it's the question that drives me. It's the question that brought us here. You know the question, just as I do

The answer is out there, and it's looking for us, and it will find us if we want it to...

 

[ESBrewer]

Wheat dextrin is carb as well, even if it is modified somehow to prevent digestion. But why not carbs? Carbohydrate (in different forms) is the main compound in barley, wheat and beer. Those are the compounds that constitute the body of any beer. There are some proteins, minerals and yeast products of course, but it is mainly about carbohydrates. If you are looking for a thin body, you may go for long mash, low temp, no specialty malts, short boil, attenuative yeast, sugar additions, Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus etc. In my mind, replacing malts with something else will produce something else than a beer.

 

[GRBC]

Wheat dextrin is carb as well, even if it is modified somehow to prevent digestion. But why not carbs? Carbohydrate (in different forms) is the main compound in barley, wheat and beer. Those are the compounds that constitute the body of any beer. There are some proteins, minerals and yeast products of course, but it is mainly about carbohydrates. If you are looking for a thin body, you may go for long mash, low temp, no specialty malts, short boil, attenuative yeast, sugar additions, Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus etc. In my mind, replacing malts with something else will produce something else than a beer.

The why is related to health reasons and to be honest it is personal and I would prefer not to discuss it here. Suffice it to say that I am trying to find a way to continue to enjoy good beer.

I agree that the extract from malt is 90% carbs ( http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion). However, I feel like other fermentations that reach 100% actual attenuation (FG<1.000), retain some of the character from the source of carbs - think malt character in a sour, apple character in cider.

So my hope is that a beer brewed with something like munich malt, that is mashed to convert all convertible starches into fermentable sugars, and fermented to 100% actual attenuation will retain enough malt character...and if the mouthfeel/body can be made (without adding carbs) to resemble a traditional beer, it will be acceptably enjoyable and compatible with my health goals. I don’t expect it to be as satisfying as my favorite DIPA, but I’ll take what I can get.

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Pappers_]

I think you might consider diving into mead and cider - sounds like it might be better for you than trying to make 'fake' beer. Mead especially is complex, challenging and delicioud

 

[Zimm9]

I don't know a whole lot about it so could be way off-base with this idea. Have you looked into the gluten free methods of brewing? It may or may not lower the carbs but there might be a carb substitute used in GF recipes that would work better with your health needs.

 

[ba-brewer]

wyeast 3711 French saison yeast can attenuate pretty low yet still leave some body, fermented in the mid 60s it not that funky. Wy1450 is suppose attenuate pretty well and still give a good mouthfeel, and I recall seeing other but don't recall with ones.

I did a cream of 3 crop that fermented down pretty low too and I don't recall it being over watery.

I think with time your taste buds will adjust to a lighter body beer so you may not need to add things back to boost the body.

I just seen someone post this recipe, not a 1.000 beer but seem they have some what similar goals to have a flavorful light beer.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/vienna-saazage.645964/#post-8232543

 

[ong]

The why is related to health reasons and to be honest it is personal and I would prefer not to discuss it here. Suffice it to say that I am trying to find a way to continue to enjoy good beer.

I agree that the extract from malt is 90% carbs ( http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion). However, I feel like other fermentations that reach 100% actual attenuation (FG<1.000), retain some of the character from the source of carbs - think malt character in a sour, apple character in cider.

So my hope is that a beer brewed with something like munich malt, that is mashed to convert all convertible starches into fermentable sugars, and fermented to 100% actual attenuation will retain enough malt character...and if the mouthfeel/body can be made (without adding carbs) to resemble a traditional beer, it will be acceptably enjoyable and compatible with my health goals. I don’t expect it to be as satisfying as my favorite DIPA, but I’ll take what I can get.

Any suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

Munich malt will leave plenty of body, but it’s because of unfermentable sugars. That’s pretty much what gives beer body.

It’s worth noting that 1.000 FG doesn’t mean “100% attenuation,” or that there are no sugars in the beer. Ethanol has a much lower density than water, so a 5% ethanol in water solution (pale ale) with no sugars or other compounds would have a FG of 0.991.

 

[GRBC]

Munich malt will leave plenty of body, but it’s because of unfermentable sugars. That’s pretty much what gives beer body.

It’s worth noting that 1.000 FG doesn’t mean “100% attenuation,” or that there are no sugars in the beer. Ethanol has a much lower density than water, so a 5% ethanol in water solution (pale ale) with no sugars or other compounds would have a FG of 0.991.

Which brings us full circle from my current all munich malt brew, mashed for 3+ hours at 145F (with 2 beano tabs in the mash), 1.037 OG fermenting for 5 days now with 34/70 at room temp (pitched at 55F) - hopefully to <1.000 FG. I aimed for about 1/2 of the typical bitterness expecting there to be little to no residual sweetness.

I was considering (still am, actually) dosing a pint with benefiber to an adjusted ~1.010 FG. Could even sweeten slightly to taste with stevia. Curious if faking the mouthfeel and sweetness that traditionally come from carbs, with non-carb substitutes will result in something that tastes like “normal” beer.

Maybe I can get brulosophy to run a triangle test to confirm that a normal 1.010FG beer is statistically indistinguishable from my frankenfiber beer? Those people don’t seem to be able to taste any differences....(I kid)!

 

[Lefou]

**Anyone have any suggestions to help me create a low carb homebrew formulation of craft beer? Or is it impossible?**

Very possible and very doable.
Reducing the grain bill is a solution and one good example would be a beer I'm working on now for my Dad. He's diabetic but is still able to drink beer in small amounts, so I came up with a Kolsch variation of German leichtbier with an ABV of 3.2% and less than 100 calories per 12oz bottle.
I am leaning toward Vienna malt, white wheat, honey, and oats for added non-fermentable dextrins, but I won't be adding large amounts of indigestible fibers - I want a beer that clarifies to some degree.

The problem here with highly diastatic, low ABV, light SRM beers and small grain bills is their tendency to yield watery beers. I'm hoping the oats add to that somewhat without contributing to extra gravity and making my Dad poop himself silly - so I will test it on myself first.