Batch sparge volume and boil off

[2005STi]

I'm new to AG and still getting used to my system (10 gal boilermaker and 10 gal Rubbermaid MT, 5 gal batches). I use BeerSmith for my batch sparge volumes and it always tells me to mash in X gal, wait an hour, then add Y volume for say a total of 3 gallons for first runnings. Then I sparge and add an additional 3 gal for my desired pre boil volume of 6 gallons.

I have been coming up short on my pre boil OG. Wouldn't adding X and Y and mashing that in at once give me better efficiency than adding it after the mash for equal sparge volumes? The end result should be equal runnings right? Why does BeerSmith have me do it this way?

Also can anyone give me a typical boil off for a 10 gal boilermaker? ( for them at their typical boil strength with summer temps? )

 

[woozy]

Adding X and Y and mashing in that is called no-sparge mashing and is a common mothod among BIAB. (They usually dunk and squeeze and dunk and squeeze though). Try reading some the BIAB stickies.

The efficiency is supposedly not as good as sparge. I haven't the slightest idea why not. Like everything else in brewing this is hot debated nor is it universally accepted. Purely Anecdotal: I got 66%-74% with no-sparge/dunk sparge BIAB adding X and Y from the start. Since then I've seperated to very large mashing X and very little sparging Y and doing a lot of dunk squeeze in X. Tranfering the grains and sparging with Y. Lot's of dunk squeezing in Y. Re-sparge in Y more dunk squeeze. Combine the two. Squeeze Sqeeze the crap out of it. And then I got 72% - 80% efficiency.

So I don't know. Good luck.

 

[2005STi]

I'm not sure if we're on the same level. I'm talking about for example: mashing in 3.5 gallons and waiting an hour. After an hour,adding water to account for absorption to get to a total pre sparge 1 run of 3 gallons. Now I sparge that 3 gallon first run, add 3 more gallons, sparge 2nd runnings and get my desired total of 6 gallons. That's what BeerSmith has me do.

I want to know if I can/should account for absorption up front to get my total of 3 gallons without adding water to the mash and sparging straight away

 

[woozy]

You're right. We aren't on the same page.

Re you talking about mashing out?

 

[VonAle]

I'm new to AG and still getting used to my system (10 gal boilermaker and 10 gal Rubbermaid MT, 5 gal batches). I use BeerSmith for my batch sparge volumes and it always tells me to mash in X gal, wait an hour, then add Y volume for say a total of 3 gallons for first runnings. Then I sparge and add an additional 3 gal for my desired pre boil volume of 6 gallons.

I have been coming up short on my pre boil OG. Wouldn't adding X and Y and mashing that in at once give me better efficiency than adding it after the mash for equal sparge volumes? The end result should be equal runnings right? Why does BeerSmith have me do it this way?

Also can anyone give me a typical boil off for a 10 gal boilermaker? ( for them at their typical boil strength with summer temps? )

Are you running all of your water thru the MT?
I run approx equal volumes for the mash and batch sparge.

I cannot get BS to calculate my volumes and temperatures to match my actual historical numbers, so I wrote a spread sheet to do all that for me.

Start with the volume you want into you're fermenter. Say 5.25 gals
Add trub loss ~0.25-.5 qrts
Add chill loss ~1.0 qrts
This is the Post boil volume ( ~22.25 qrts)
Now add Boil / Evaperation loss ~5-6 qrts per hour (4%)
This is the Pre-boil volume ( ~28 qrts ) (30+ for 90 min boils)
Add grain absorbtion ~.5 qrts/lb (ie. 6 qrts for 12 lb grain bill)
This is now you're total water to run thru MT to reach the desired final volume. ~34-36 qrts

I'll mash with 18 qrts (12 lb grains = 1.5 mash thickness)
Then batch sparge with 17-18 qrts
I'll monitor and stop or add to the sparge runnings so they meet and don't exceed my calculated pre-boil volume.

 

[Nicegirl]

I'm not sure if we're on the same level. I'm talking about for example: mashing in 3.5 gallons and waiting an hour. After an hour,adding water to account for absorption to get to a total pre sparge 1 run of 3 gallons. Now I sparge that 3 gallon first run, add 3 more gallons, sparge 2nd runnings and get my desired total of 6 gallons. That's what BeerSmith has me do.

I want to know if I can/should account for absorption up front to get my total of 3 gallons without adding water to the mash and sparging straight away

To answer your question, yes, you can account for the grain absorption factor when measuring your strike water. I do it all of the time and always get good results and efficiencies that range right around 85%.

 

[2005STi]

Are you running all of your water thru the MT?
I run approx equal volumes for the mash and batch sparge.

I cannot get BS to calculate my volumes and temperatures to match my actual historical numbers, so I wrote a spread sheet to do all that for me.

Start with the volume you want into you're fermenter. Say 5.25 gals
Add trub loss ~0.25-.5 qrts
Add chill loss ~1.0 qrts
This is the Post boil volume ( ~22.25 qrts)
Now add Boil / Evaperation loss ~5-6 qrts per hour (4%)
This is the Pre-boil volume ( ~28 qrts ) (30+ for 90 min boils)
Add grain absorbtion ~.5 qrts/lb (ie. 6 qrts for 12 lb grain bill)
This is now you're total water to run thru MT to reach the desired final volume. ~34-36 qrts

I'll mash with 18 qrts (12 lb grains = 1.5 mash thickness)
Then batch sparge with 17-18 qrts
I'll monitor and stop or add to the sparge runnings so they meet and don't exceed my calculated pre-boil volume.

But to have equal runnings, your first run needs to have the amount of water that will be absorbed added to it. That will then leave your first runnings equal half of your desired total volume.

10 lbs of grain x 0.15 gal water lost/lb of grain = 1.5 gal
Total desired vol = 6 gal
1st runnings = 3 gal
2nd runnings = 3 gal
Mash in = 3 gal + 1.5 gal (to be absorbed)

 

[Yooper]

I'm not sure if we're on the same level. I'm talking about for example: mashing in 3.5 gallons and waiting an hour. After an hour,adding water to account for absorption to get to a total pre sparge 1 run of 3 gallons. Now I sparge that 3 gallon first run, add 3 more gallons, sparge 2nd runnings and get my desired total of 6 gallons. That's what BeerSmith has me do.

I want to know if I can/should account for absorption up front to get my total of 3 gallons without adding water to the mash and sparging straight away

Here's the easy way:

Mash in with your 3.5 gallons. Heat up your sparge water (have extra).

Once the mash is finished, drain the runnings. Measure them.

Then subtract that from the desired boil volume.

If you mashed in with 3.5 gallons, and you get 2.5 gallons out, and your boil volume is 6.5 gallons, you need four gallons of sparge water.

You don't have to add it to your mash tun to make them equal- even 2.5 gallons vs 4 gallons is close enough for maximum efficiency.

If you measure your first runnings before adding your sparge water, you can never miss your boil volume.

Once you get it down to where you know your system, you can adjust your settings in Beersmith and change it up if you want.

 

[ArthurDigbySellers]

What I think BS is asking you to do, as woozy guessed, is a mashout. This is where you add a specific amount of post-mash water - usually at 170 degrees - to stop sugar conversion. Supposedly it also helps loosen up the mash if you mash with a ratio of less than 1.5 qt/lb water/grain ratio. I'm pretty sure the default mash profile on BS uses a mashout. You can change your mash profile to suit the way you brew. I don't use a mashout and I also don't sparge with two separate additions so I've had to mess with the BS mash profile quite a bit to get it to conform to the way I brew.

But Yooper is right on target as always. Measuring your first runnings will always allow you to figure out what your sparge addition needs to be.

 

[2005STi]

Shouldn't I be concerned with equal sparges? I can still mash out with equal sparges