So brewed an American Wheat today. Was aiming for 1.046 OG. Everytime my efficiency was 72%. Today it was only 55%. I got OG of 1.035. I did use rice hulls, 220 grams. Sparge was done in 12 minutes. I usually sparge for around 20-30 min. Could this be the reason i got such a bad efficiency ? That i did not collect enough sugar in the short sparge ?
Bad efficiency brew day
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Knowing the grain bill, mash details and PH will go a long way in helping to figure out what happened. There is really not enough info here at the moment.
wheat malt 2kg
Pale malt 1kg
Pilsner 1kg
Melanoidin 0.165 kg
Carawheat 0.055kg
Rice hulls 0.220 kg
45 min mash @ 67C
10 min mash out @ 76-77C
Sparge temp 76-77C
29g mount hood 5.5% @ 60 min
10g mount hood 5.5% @ 5 min
1l yeast starter wlp320
ph 5.5
Really need volume information to go with the above grain bill info. Volumes needed:
- Strike water volume
- Sparge water volume
- Pre-boil volume
- Post-boil volume
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Pre boil was 27l. 17l mash water and 13l sparge water. Post boil 22l and 20l went into bucket. Usually I bottle 18l then. Pre boil gravity was 1.028. I always do a 90 min boil and og was then 1.035. With the pre boil gravity i knew its gonna end up bad. Prepared some dme and brozght it up to 1.044. Goal was 1.046. First time i used rice hulls. Had the recirculation arm on highest and couldnt keep any water above the grain. Sparge water just run through the grain. I assume that is the issue.Really need volume information to go with the above grain bill info. Volumes needed:
And a really useful piece of information is the SG at the end of mash-out, prior to any sparging. This SG data point can allow the separation of conversion efficiency (how much of the available starch actually got converted to sugar [and other soluble wort components]) and lauter efficiency (how much of the sugar created in the mash actually made it into the BK.) Knowing whether your low efficiency was due to insufficient conversion (mash not "done") or poor lauter process, can tell you where you need to focus your remedial efforts.
- Strike water volume
- Sparge water volume
- Pre-boil volume
- Post-boil volume
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What type of brewing hardware do you have? Did you drain the initial wort prior to sparging? If so, that is why you couldn't keep any liquid above the grain bed during the sparge.
Since you didn't supply a value, I assume you do not have end-of-mash SG data. Correct?
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Correct, sounds ill have to start taking notes of those too ! I use a brewzilla which has a recirculation arm. Usually im only able to open in max half way which keeps a steady flow. Not too little yet not overflowing.What type of brewing hardware do you have? Did you drain the initial wort prior to sparging? If so, that is why you couldn't keep any liquid above the grain bed during the sparge.
Since you didn't supply a value, I assume you do not have end-of-mash SG data. Correct?
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Its pretty simple with the all in one. I use a 2l jug and pur the soarge water of 76-77c over the grains. I have the heating on while collecting the wort. Usually i get to boiling temp in 35 min and sparging takes me around 30min. This time sparging took me around 10min. Would be even faster its just i use 2 pots in which i heat the sparge water.Can you describe your process in detail from mash-out to start of boil?
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fwiw, I think "batch sparging" might be a better way to go in this case...
Cheers!
Cheers!
For batch sparging with malt pipe systems (like the Brewzilla) you need a second vessel into which you can immerse the malt pipe up to at least the level of the top of the grain bed in the pipe.
I like batch sparging vs. pour over sparging (the usual method of sparging with a malt pipe) as it is more consistent and predictable. A true fly sparge can be more efficient than a batch sparge, but a pour over sparge will not be as efficient as a true fly sparge, and may not even be as efficient as a single batch sparge (but I have seen no data on that.)
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thanks guys. I only have around 7 ag brews under my belt so its just another thing to learn from. Ill use only a handful or 2 of rice hulls next time and i wont place them at bottom as a filter. I usually get 72-73% efficiency which i dnt mind and am not looking to change that as it allows me to adjust recipes and hit my numbers consistently, except today …For batch sparging with malt pipe systems (like the Brewzilla) you need a second vessel into which you can immerse the malt pipe up to at least the level of the top of the grain bed in the pipe.
I like batch sparging vs. pour over sparging (the usual method of sparging with a malt pipe) as it is more consistent and predictable. A true fly sparge can be more efficient than a batch sparge, but a pour over sparge will not be as efficient as a true fly sparge, and may not even be as efficient as a single batch sparge (but I have seen no data on that.)
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rmr9
Well-Known Member
I had an off efficiency day recently on my Brewzilla as well but I think I’ve isolated the culprit. How was the crush on your wheat malt? I wonder if part of your issue is there. I’ve never had good luck with wheat beers on the Brewzilla, every time I’ve tried I’ve gotten very poor efficiency and thin final product.
I buy the grains crushed. This time tho i ordered all the grains from a diff supplier as the usual was out of all wheat grain brands so a good point. It might be they use a different crush compared to the usual supplier i order from.
I have had channeling issues before when brewing a beer with 40% wheat and using rice hulls when recirculating the mash and lost gravity points.
rmr9
Well-Known Member
So is the key to use less or no rice hulls?
I'd be in deep doodoo doing my wheat beers sans rice hulls 
The usual efficiency issue with wheat is that wheat kernels are smaller than barley kernels, and with some mill settings many wheat kernels don't actually get cracked open/broken up. This results in very low conversion of the wheat fraction of the grain bill.
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If I was to do it again, id use less rice hulls. A handful or 2 instead. I also wouldnt lay them out at the bottom of the screen this time to act as a filter as it did much better job than expected. Maybe i wouldnt use them at all as I mash pretty thin and never had stuck mash issues really. Id just try not to have such a fast flow of water through the grains during mash and sparge to allow some soaking and draining.
Thank you. I also read elsewhere that you dont want the flow too fast which is what happened to me. And as the guy mentions in the video, you want to mix them in and i didnt properly mix in well enough. Had layers of hulls at bottom mid and top.
MicroMickey
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The lauter and sparge is the area in which most of us can really improve our efficiency. A slow lauter is the number one trick in coaxing the sugars out of our mashed grist. Close down the valve to the point of taking about 90 minutes or more to finish running the wort into the kettle. On a five gallon batch, the stream of wort I run into the kettle is about the size of a ball point pen cartridge. This one little trick will boost your brewhouse efficiency a lot more than you might imagine!
Thank you for the input. I figured this is where i messed up because as mentioned earlier, except the rice hulls and fast sparge (20-25min faster than usual) I changed nothing and been getting 72% consistently before that. I know its not the best number but i dnt mind as it lets me hit my targets consistently accross different brews. Just really disappointed as so far all my ag brews came out good and worried what this will come out to be like.
MicroMickey
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Lots of brewers try to speed up the clock here and there. The lauter and sparge IS NOT the place to save a few minutes.
pvtpublic
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I agree with the last few folks here talking about your lautering rate. The main reason for slowing the flow dramatically is that you don't want to compact your grain bed. This creates channeling, where the water flows through parts of your mash instead of it flowing around each grain, allowing it to rinse the sugar off more efficiently. Go slow and keep your grain suspended in the water.
Control Freak
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Stir, Stir, Stir, and your effort will be greatly rewarded.
I'm not convinced that poor lauter efficiency is the main cause of OP's low mash efficiency. There is a very high probability that OP had lower than normal conversion efficiency, what with ~50% wheat (which might have been marginally crushed) and only a 45 minute mash. Plus, OP used a new grain supplier (and crusher), so that makes crush adequacy a suspect.
Unfortunately, OP did not measure one needed parameter that would allow the separation of conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency from the mash efficiency (mash eff = conv eff * lauter eff.) The missing data value is the wort SG at the end of mash, prior any sparge water being added. Being able to separate these two efficiencies allows the brewer to know whether the mash or the lauter (or both) was the primary cause of low mash and brewhouse efficiency.
OP is using a Brewzilla AIO, which has a malt pipe. So, it's brew in a basket. Lautering is accomplished by lifting the basket out of the kettle and letting it drain. Sparging is usually done by pouring the sparge water over the grain bed while still raised above the level of the wort. There is no drain valve to throttle. Thus there is no way to control the draining rate of the sparged wort. You can only control the rate at which water is applied to the top of the grain bed.
And, slow sparging only matters when fly sparging. When batch sparging, all you have to do is add the sparge water, stir well enough to homogenize the wort concentration throughout the entire volume, and then drain as fast as the system will allow.
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I've never used an all-in-one, but I wonder if you might squeeze (no pun intended) a bit of extra efficiency out of it by dunk sparging in a bucket instead and stirring the grains in the sparge water. This would kind of defeat one purpose of an AIO, since you'd have another vessel to clean.
Couldnt explain it better myself. Exactly how my sparging looks using all in one.I'm not convinced that poor lauter efficiency is the main cause of OP's low mash efficiency. There is a very high probability that OP had lower than normal conversion efficiency, what with ~50% wheat (which might have been marginally crushed) and only a 45 minute mash. Plus, OP used a new grain suppler (and crusher), so that makes crush adequacy a suspect.
Unfortunately, OP did not measure one needed parameter that would allow the separation of conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency from the mash efficiency (mash eff = conv eff * lauter eff.) The missing data value is the wort SG at the end of mash, prior any sparge water being added. Being able to separate these two efficiencies allows the brewer to know whether the mash or the lauter (or both) was the primary cause of low mash and brewhouse efficiency.
OP is using a Brewzilla AIO, which has a malt pipe. So, it's brew in a basket. Lautering is accomplished by lifting the basket out of the kettle and letting it drain. Sparging is usually done by pouring the sparge water over the grain bed while still raised above the level of the wort. There is no drain valve to throttle. Thus there is no way to control the draining rate of the sparged wort. You can only control the rate at which water is applied to the top of the grain bed.
And, slow sparging only matters when fly sparging. When batch sparging, all you have to do is add the sparge water, stir well enough to homogenize the wort concentration throughout the entire volume, and then drain as fast as the system will allow.
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Maybe its possible. Not sure as i never tried it. Again, im only 7 brews in and all 6 were good, last batch of cream ale was the best i brewed. I dont get much time to brew as recently had a baby so a bit disappointed with how this brew went. Im planning to repeat this recipe with only a handfull or 2 of rice hulls well stirred in to slow down the draining during sparge to collect more sugar.
How did I miss that? Answer - I didn't. It must be a short term memory thing. Which is not exactly cool TBH.
Congratulations!
Congrats on the new addition to the family.
I would check how well the grain is crushed, particularly the wheat, prior to mashing on your next attempt. If there is a significant fraction of uncrushed wheat kernels, I would see if you can get someone local to recrush your grain to get the wheat better crushed.
Also, don't forget to get an end of mash SG.
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Ya im planning to order from the usual supplier this time. Regarding the end of mash gravity is there any way to know what im aiming for ? I use brewfather which only shows pre boil and og.Congrats on the new addition to the family.
I would check how well the grain is crushed, particularly the wheat, prior to mashing on your next attempt. If there is a significant fraction of uncrushed wheat kernels, I would see if you can get someone local to recrush your grain to get the wheat better crushed.
Also, don't forget to get an end of mash SG.
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Yes. The end of mash SG at 100% conversion is a function of the mash thickness (qt/lb of strike water) and the weighted average potential of the grain bill. The second factor is usually very close to 80% or 37 pts/lb (1.037 if expressed as SG), fine grind dry basis. The following chart shows expected mash SG as a function of mash thickness @ a potential of 80% or 37 pts/lb.
Or, you can just measure the SG (after stirring and lifting/lowering the malt pipe several times to mix in the wort between the pipe and vessel wall) every 15 minutes or so, after about 45 minutes of mash time. When the SG stops increasing, then your conversion has gone as far as it is going to go. A refractometer is ideal for making measurements during the mash.
I also have a spreadsheet that will calculate expected SG values, and efficiencies, from the mash thru the boil. To use this sheet download it as an Excel or LibreOffice sheet, and work with it locally, as I do not grant edit access to anyone, as they could break the master sheet. For a pour over sparge, I would approximate by specifying a single batch sparge process.
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Thank you for the detailed explanation ! Was thinking ill need to invest in a refractometer as I still use hydrometer and chilling each sample wouldnt work.Yes. The end of mash SG at 100% conversion is a function of the mash thickness (qt/lb of strike water) and the weighted average potential of the grain bill. The second factor is usually very close to 80% or 37 pts/lb (1.037 if expressed as SG), fine grind dry basis. The following chart shows expected mash SG as a function of mash thickness @ a potential of 80% or 37 pts/lb.
View attachment 848178
Or, you can just measure the SG (after stirring and lifting/lowering the malt pipe several times to mix in the wort between the pipe and vessel wall) every 15 minutes or so, after about 45 minutes of mash time. When the SG stops increasing, then your conversion has gone as far as it is going to go. A refractometer is ideal for making measurements during the mash.
I also have a spreadsheet that will calculate expected SG values, and efficiencies, from the mash thru the boil. To use this sheet download it as an Excel or LibreOffice sheet, and work with it locally, as I do not grant edit access to anyone, as they could break the master sheet. For a pour over sparge, I would approximate by specifying a single batch sparge process.
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in my case it was channeling as same recipe multiple times same mill gap just found a channel before maybe grain bed was rested.The usual efficiency issue with wheat is that wheat kernels are smaller than barley kernels, and with some mill settings many wheat kernels don't actually get cracked open/broken up. This results in very low conversion of the wheat fraction of the grain bill.
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oh no with the grain bill I use at 40% wheat, with my setup it will gelatinize to a stiff "oatmeal". I think I use at least 2lbs (with out my notes total grain bill is 21-22#) . cant go wrong with more than enough and is a pain when you don't use enough.
in my case I may have not let the grain bed even steven out and the recirc created the channel. I haven't manufactured my recirc shower head yet and it was just pumping out of a tee fitting; which may flow better on one side to the other. I do use a keggle setup so your situation may very. This information is more of just information, it may help it may not.
Channeling during mash recirc or sparging? Channeling during the mash is much less of an issue than during a sparge. Recirc during mashing is primarily for temperature stability. You don't need recirculation to get conversion during the mash - just water surrounding the grain grits and a suitable temperature.
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