Attenuations Meditation: Water Wizards Please

[uncleleon]

I've a lot of technical brewing books lately. I'm having trouble understanding the (chemistry) {science} information, especially this chart from "The Practical Brewer" about mineral concentrations and sachrification time:
(pg. 34)

Ca 79 166 83 207
Mg 18 39 16 3
Na 2 13 26 24
SO4 7 217 223 282
HCO3 319 396 51 136
Cl 3 38 40 127

Sac Time 75 60 15 10

Sorry for the potato format, but I have questions. Can someone elaborate on what is happening here or if this is even real?

The book says from distilled water with added minerals and so I've tried to figure the ph of each with brewers friend and can't. Maybe someone could plug this into another water database and give a definitive answer on how you can fully saccriphy in 10 mins.

My own observations seem to suggest:

If quiker sacc and better extract and atten. are the goal then,
Low HCO and High SO4.... but not necessarily high sulfite to choride ratio... but at least 2:1. but please, enlighten me.

 

[doug293cz]

This looks bogus to me. Saccharification time will be affected by grain crush size, since a lot of what goes on in the mash is controlled by diffusion processes. Smaller grain particles give shorter diffusion distances, so things happen faster. Water pH probably plays a role as well, but the ion concentrations given shouldn't have that big an effect on how fast the amylase breaks down the starch.

Brew on

 

[uncleleon]

It was published by the master brewers association, so ... can anyone just give me what the ph would be for each of these profiles?

 

[mabrungard]

Saccharification is time and temperature dependent. I have not found it to be highly dependent upon ionic composition of the water. Another more important fact is that while starch conversion can be rapid, the breakdown of polysaccharides into smaller and more fermentable sugars is highly time dependent. There isn't a natural way to get around that fact.

 

[ajdelange]

I can't find my copy so I can't check out what they are talking about here. The profiles with high bicarbonate, ceteris paribus, will result in high mash pH potentially to the point of less complete saccharification in a given time frame but I don't even know what they mean by the term without being able to see the book.

The only minerals that will effect mash pH in the list are bicarbonate and to a lesser extent calcium (actually the others have a tiny effect too) but it is impossible to predict a mash pH without knowing how much of what malts are being mixed with how much of the water. If, for example, you put 90% base malt and 10% crystal 10L into the water described in the second column at 1.4 qts/lb mash thickness you might expect a mash pH of 5.95 or so but I don't see why that would give you 10 min less saccharification time than a water with less alkalinity (first column numbers).

 

[uncleleon]

Thanks for the replies, that puts it a little more in focus. So the iodine test won't tell you how far the saccharides have broken down, just that they are no longer bound into starches?

 

[mabrungard]

So the iodine test won't tell you how far the saccharides have broken down, just that they are no longer bound into starches?

Correct. The iodine test can only tell you that facet and you may want to know more.

A short, higher temperature mash can get you converted quickly, but you are more likely to end up with a worty tasting, low attenuating beer. I no longer prefer to make beers like that. A properly attenuated beer with an appropriate bittering level is far superior to an underattenuated and overbittered beer (assuming both have a similar balance) by my tastes.

 

[uncleleon]

What do you think is the overall reason this chart was published in the practical brewer? What else does it show us?

It lists changes to drainage rate, wort aroma, wort color, %extract, and %final attenuation, With the yield being greater for the 15 and 10 minute attenuations.

 

[uncleleon]

Seems that on a grand scale maltsters and brewer are trying to get the most from the raw ingredients and can maybe then work towards refining taste towards customer wants. I think it's obvious that by changing ion concentrations in water we can make a more efficient mash. What are the upper limits of what water chemistry can benefit wort production?

 

[uncleleon]

Correct. The iodine test can only tell you that facet and you may want to know more.



A short, higher temperature mash can get you converted quickly, but you are more likely to end up with a worty tasting, low attenuating beer. I no longer prefer to make beers like that. A properly attenuated beer with an appropriate bittering level is far superior to an underattenuated and overbittered beer (assuming both have a similar balance) by my tastes.

When you say likely to end up with ... What other factors is that based on? And how can we nail those down?

 

[uncleleon]

Correct. The iodine test can only tell you that facet and you may want to know more.



A short, higher temperature mash can get you converted quickly, but you are more likely to end up with a worty tasting, low attenuating beer. I no longer prefer to make beers like that. A properly attenuated beer with an appropriate bittering level is far superior to an underattenuated and overbittered beer (assuming both have a similar balance) by my tastes.

When you say likely to end up with ... What other factors is that based on? And how can we nail those down?