Are People Still Using the Baker's Yeast Method?

[lump42]

You may wish to figure out who Die_Beerery is and correct your comment questioning his qualifications.

I never said anything questioning Die_Beerery's qualifications. Whatever qualifications he/she may posses, it doesn't qualify them to dismiss others from a conversation.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Except for the part where you literally did... But I bet you can guess. I don't care. I'm a boy boy I can take it AND move on. You know since it doesn't affect my real life in any shape or form.

Why are we still here discussing feelings?

Yeast Deoxy works.

People still use it.

The ratios are still the same.

Use it, don't use it, I don't care.

Move the fudge on, for Christs sake. I am tired of getting notifications, with people whining.

(trying for the 80th time to unsubscribe)

 

[schematix]

I never said anything questioning Die_Beerery's qualifications. Whatever qualifications he/she may posses, it doesn't qualify them to dismiss others from a conversation.

You actually quoted him and asked why he was more qualified.

And his qualifications do allow him to dismiss others when they are spouting nonsense.

 

[lump42]

You actually quoted him and asked why he was more qualified.

And his qualifications do allow him to dismiss others when they are spouting nonsense.

I apologize if you or anyone elsa read it in an offensive tone. The entire statement was intended more as a general 'you', not calling die_beerery out specifically. My intent was to say that one's qualifications, no matter how great or small, shouldn't allow them to dismiss someone from a conversation.

 

[schematix]

They are being dismissed for making sweeping incorrect factual statements when really what they mean to say is they just don't like it. Simply the difference between facts and opinions.

 

[bob1852]

They are being dismissed for making sweeping incorrect factual statements when really what they mean to say is they just don't like it. Simply the difference between facts and opinions.

I agree. It's a fact that LODO makes better beer is just an opinion.

 

[Die_Beerery]

I think this may just be the final push I needed to be done with this place for good.

I agree. It's a fact that LODO makes better beer is just an opinion.

Just like water modification, pH control, temperature control and moving from extract to all grain is.

 

[bob1852]

I think this may just be the final push I needed to be done with this place for good.



Just like water modification, pH control, temperature control and moving from extract to all grain is.

Water modifications, pH control, and temp control all have very wide ranges of target numbers depending on the style....

And in many cases, they're not as important as many think.

The LODO purists won't acknowledge that it's the same for oxygen.

 

[Dog House Brew]

You may wish to figure out who Die_Beerery is and correct your comment questioning his qualifications.

Great advice Sir

 

[Dog House Brew]

Except for the part where you literally did... But I bet you can guess. I don't care. I'm a boy boy I can take it AND move on. You know since it doesn't affect my real life in any shape or form.

Why are we still here discussing feelings?

Yeast Deoxy works.

People still use it.

The ratios are still the same.

Use it, don't use it, I don't care.

Move the fudge on, for Christs sake. I am tired of getting notifications, with people whining.

(trying for the 80th time to unsubscribe)

Don’t do it, but I get it.

 

[bkboiler]

sounds interesting...i think i read an exbeeriment on this a while back.

I suppose I’m typically not in favor of making my brew day more complicated, so I’d need to try a LODO beer to be convinced...to me it’s a value proposition.

Glad to hear people pushing the boundaries of brewing!

 

[jdauria]

Proof? Nobody so far has amassed a pile of awards for brewing exceptional beers with their lodo practices. If any of you have, feel free to post evidence below.

The Low oxygen site does have a thread in their forum of people who have placed in comps. You’re right it’s not a pile, but part of that is the judges palates don’t know what they are tasting when they taste that deep fresh malt flavor as they are not used to it.

I just recently started trying LoDo, three beers in. My first was a Munich Helles which was definitely better than two previous versions I made this year. National judge in my club called it a butter bomb, but sent to two comps, New England Regional and Southern New England Regional. Scored a 38 in both, went to mini-BOS in both, took 3rd place in one of them. Sure, I have had beers that were not LoDo medal too, but placing before even getting the process down says something.

My second and third LoDo beers, an Alt (just average, but my fault not the process) and a very good Vienna Lager are at St. Louis Happy Holiday comp this weekend. I will report back.

 

[kh54s10]

The Low oxygen site does have a thread in their forum of people who have placed in comps. You’re right it’s not a pile, but part of that is the judges palates don’t know what they are tasting when they taste that deep fresh malt flavor as they are not used to it.

Wouldn't you think that LODO would make the beers brewed to a style better and that the judges would say "Wow, this is the best xxx that I ever tasted"? If it is changing the beer???

 

[Big Monk]

Yes.

There. At least someone said it. So get over it.

Take away all the Low O2 stuff.

I have collaborated with him for almost 3 years now and he is a super nice guy, extremely knowledgeable about all things brewing in general, and more than willing to help those who don't just stick their head in the sand or squawk and caw ceaselessly without doing any research.

Think about it this way: If you try the methods, I mean really try, like you tried when you went from extract to all-grain, and don't see results, where do you end up? Right back where you are now.

No harm, no foul. Low oxygen is a small part of what we are interested in. Look at our site or for god's sake, ask us questions about mashing schedules, cold side mitigation, packaging techniques, Sauergut, pH estimation and other software solutions, bottling, gear, equipment, etc.

We are nerds on this stuff as well. You guys are taking a few points specific to oxygen removal and missing the forest for the trees.

We want to help people not get shouted down by people who are letting thier emotions get in the way of learning something, even if they don't think it will completely help them.

I have never brewed a lager in my life. It's not my thing. But Trappist beer? You betcha. We have guys who only make pale ales. There is something here for everyone, regardless of LODO or not.

We like brewing. We like discussing and coming up with interesting and innovative things for brewing. @Die_Beerery has a canning setup and brewery to die for.

There is more here then just pre-boiling 10 gallons of water and putting metabisulfite in it.

We reached an all-time low the other day when a "discussion" in another thread ended with someone calling someone a "See you next Tuesday". This nonsense has to stop.

We aren't going anywhere. Neither are folks who don't boil their wort or those making Triple Caramel Kiwi Peanut Butter Bourbon Brandy Barrel Aged IPAs. We either all have to get used to new ideas or else these types of places are no fun for anyone and no one learns anything.

 

[lump42]

So if the judges at competitions don't know that your LODO beers taste better, then how the heck do you know?

Maybe, instead of the judges being brainwashed/blind to the LODO "it" factor, you all are suffering from a mass delusion? Have you brainwashed yourselves? Maybe you're just suffering from a lack of oxygen?

Too bad you guys don't give a crap about competing, you could all be wealthy owners of successful craft breweries by now

So are the merits of a brewing practice only valid if they win brewing competitions? A few people that have studied a document are not going to determine if a beer tastes good to me. I would see this whole practice as another tool to achieve different outcomes. Not everyone is going to move to all-grain, adjust water, precisely control temps, but doesn't matter if the expected outcome of the brewer was achieved. I don't ever use my 3/4" socket, but I don't think any less of it than my 3/8"

 

[Jayjay1976]

I am truly coming around to the idea of lodo brewing as beneficial for preserving malt flavors. The parts which I find hard to swallow are ridiculous claims like that BJCP judges are either blind to the enhanced malty flavors or somehow conditioned to prefer the stale flavors of oxidation. I trust that there are flavor benefits to avoiding HSA, but the differences are small and hard to quantify given the sheer number of variables involved in the entire beer making process, not to mention the subjective nature of flavor perception in the first place.

I liken it to a movement of people who feel they must convince the public that their specific method of tying shoes is inherently and unquestionably superior to any other way, and those who fail to acknowledge the superiority must be closed-minded. I might switch the way I tie my shoes if were to become a pole vaulter. Until then, the way I tie my bowling shoes is my business.

 

[Big Monk]

...not to mention the subjective nature of flavor perception in the first place.

I'll give you this. I play guitar as well and "tone" is known to be highly subjective as well.

I liken it to a movement of people who feel they must convince the public that their specific method of tying shoes is inherently and unquestionably superior to any other way, and those who fail to acknowledge the superiority must be closed-minded. I might switch the way I tie my shoes if were to become a pole vaulter. Until then, the way I tie my bowling shoes is my business.

Let's have some fun with this then: If my way of tying my shoes helped my pole vaulting and my bowling, and I had tried both ways, but you hadn't yet, would you want me to not tell you about it?

 

[imasickboy]

@RPIScotty :

Remember me? Of course you do. I apologize for being so crass in trying to get my point across, and I'm also sorry that it rubbed you the wrong way. I'm obviously not the only one who shares that opinion, but I am guilty of getting right to the point, without any softening statements leading in to it, and being rude. I could have been much more tactful. I won't try to blame it on being drunk, or any other BS. I won't hide behind my keyboard, and will always stand behind my words, but when I'm out of line, I'll admit it, and ask for forgiveness. I ask that you please accept my apologies for being insulting towards one of your friends/associates.

 

[Big Monk]

@RPIScotty :

Remember me? Of course you do. I apologize for being so crass in trying to get my point across, and I'm also sorry that it rubbed you the wrong way. I'm obviously not the only one who shares that opinion, but I am guilty of getting right to the point, without any softening statements leading in to it, and being rude. I could have been much more tactful. I won't try to blame it on being drunk, or any other BS. I won't hide behind my keyboard, and will always stand behind my words, but when I'm out of line, I'll admit it, and ask for forgiveness. I ask that you please accept my apologies for being insulting towards one of your friends/associates.

Much appreciated.

 

[mongoose33]

I save myself a good bit of time by bringing the strike water to near boil the night before and holding the temp a few degrees off.

When it’s time to start the day I crank the power to 100%, mill the grains into the MLT, co2 purge the mlt from below. while it’s purging I’m finishing the 5 minute preboil. The chilling takes no time at all since it’s from boil to ~150F. Once it’s chilled to strike minus 3F i dough in through RIMS set to desired strike temp.

Added time for the preboil, chill and underlet is about +20 minutes from commonly espoused methods.

I'm going to try to return this thread to something more useful.

@schematix would you explain the purging process you use? I have a mash tun (kettle) with a stainless false bottom. I've thought about trying to purge that with CO2 prior to underletting, just haven't gotten there yet.

I'm thinking that I would attach CO2 to the sight glass exiting the ball valve, give it a few squirts of CO2. Then I might lower the pressure to just a couple PSI, then start layering in the grist as the CO2 continues to flow. I'd hope the CO2 would saturate the lower part of the grain such that as the underlet water flowed in, it would displace the CO2 higher in the grain and isolate the underletting liquid from air.

But--that's a guess. How do you do this?

 

[schematix]

I'm going to try to return this thread to something more useful.

@schematix would you explain the purging process you use? I have a mash tun (kettle) with a stainless false bottom. I've thought about trying to purge that with CO2 prior to underletting, just haven't gotten there yet.

I'm thinking that I would attach CO2 to the sight glass exiting the ball valve, give it a few squirts of CO2. Then I might lower the pressure to just a couple PSI, then start layering in the grist as the CO2 continues to flow. I'd hope the CO2 would saturate the lower part of the grain such that as the underlet water flowed in, it would displace the CO2 higher in the grain and isolate the underletting liquid from air.

But--that's a guess. How do you do this?

I mill directly into the MLT. I then hook up the co2 tank to the hose that runs from the BK to the rims, which then goes to the MLT bottom port.

I let that run at a few psi while the strike water boils and chills, until I’m ready to send water over.

It doesn’t completely purge the MLT, but it’s noticeably less aromatic than no purging. The vessel in the end gets filled mostly with water so my desire is just to keep oxygen diffusing into the mash limited while it’s striking and before it’s capped.

 

[Schlenkerla]

If you want experienced viewpoints and scientific discussion based on brewing literature go to the other forum. HBT specifically made this sub forum for LODO discussion and since most posters on HBT are anti-LODO no productive discussion can be made. Most of the anti-LODO people who say it doesn't do anything haven't had a LODO beer.

If there isn't one, there should be one about LODO in the debate thread. In this sub forum the critics should reported and redirected to that spot. Its just trolling.

I don't mind a little criticism within the LODO Process over what is or isn't practical or effective to the pursuit of LODO. It should be limited to that.

 

[schematix]

If there isn't one, there should be one about LODO in the debate thread. In this sub forum the critics should reported and redirected to that spot. Its just trolling.

I don't mind a little criticism within the LODO Process over what is or isn't practical or effective to the pursuit of LODO. It should be limited to that.

Are you new here?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Are you new here?

LOL.... Yeah to dark side.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Thank you for your replies. I will have to look at my setup and see if this is at all possible on the hot side. On the cold side, I plan on getting a spunding valve and naturally carbonating my kegs. So that should be an improvement towards storage oxidation.

As a side note, I tried to join the forum over at Low Oxygen Brewing but never received the e-mail to verify the account. Checked in spam as well.

I'm at that same juncture with joining LOB... I have nothing. It also says there are no forums topics. Just thinking its closed to non members.

@Die_Beerey - Any comment on this?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Probably the most vociferous critics of LODO are the ones who have never studied the literature. Lets get some scientific facts straight. Oxygen has the second-highest electronegativity of all reactive elements, second only to fluorine. It wants all the electrons, and it will take them whenever it can! I have yet to read a valid argument of why we should not take a holistic approach to oxygen ingress by employing various simple methods and techniques. Comments like, 'its a myth', 'it doesn’t matter', 'you cannot tell the difference anyway', are unscientific. Kunze, Bamford and other have elucidated on the subject and the consensus is that oxygen is bad for your beer. Now we can argue over degree if you like but its an established scientific fact. From the oxidation of lipids in the mash right through to the oxidation and polymerisation of polyphenol/protein complexes in the finished product. Take measures to reduce oxygen ingress and you will preserve flavour. We spend a lot of time and money on making beer, especially highly hopped beers and it makes absolute sense to limit oxygen ingress. Why? because oxygen for hops is deadly!

The earth is flat... People.

Columbus risked sailing off the edge of world!!!! He did it anyway and proved people wrong.

Rheinheitgobot was wrong about primary ingredients, saying there's only three, until they discovered yeast.

In many older home brew books bleach used to be a recommended sanitizer before 1980. Just had to rinse with water...LOL

Think of flat earthers, birthers, holocaust deniers.....

Now we have oxidizers!!!

Truth be told LODO deniers in fact unwitting oxidizers.

When will it be politically incorrect speak ill of boiling mash water, underletting and closed transfers. LOL

 

[Schlenkerla]

Sorry last off topic comment.

That said..^^^^^ ....above.

I believe some styles are NOT great LODO candidates or should be partial LODO. Like a hefe that calls for open fermentation. To amp the phenol and esters one likes to see in hefeweizens. There's probably others. Maybe scotch ale or old ale or stuff that's barrel aged. They kinda rely on some oxidation right?

 

[Big Monk]

I'm at that same juncture with joining LOB... I have nothing. It also says there are no forums topics. Just thinking its closed to non members.

@Die_Beerey - Any comment on this?

It’s not open to the public, i.e. you have to register.

IOW, it’s open to anyone, but you can’t see content without registration.

 

[Schlenkerla]

It’s not open to the public, i.e. you have to register.

IOW, it’s open to anyone, but you can’t see content without registration.

Yeah, I figured that was the case since people say go there and there's no forum content visible.

I registered the 23rd... so I assume the only admin is out on vacation.

 

[Schlenkerla]

It’s not open to the public, i.e. you have to register.

IOW, it’s open to anyone, but you can’t see content without registration.

What is IOW?

In Other Words

IOW Isle Of Wight
IOW I/O Write
IOW International Office for Water
IOW Intelligence Operations Workstation (USMC)
IOW Integrated Optical Waveguide
IOW Instruments of War (gaming group; Return to Castle Wolfenstein; Activision, Inc.)
IOW Information Operations Warfare
IOW Innovators of Wrestling
IOW Idiots on Wheels
IOW Institute for Occult Warfare (Nazi Germany)
IOW International One Way (rental fee)
IOW Iraq Occupation Watch (San Francisco, CA)
IOW Image of the Week (photography)
IOW Islands of the World

 

[Big Monk]

What is IOW?

In Other Words

IOW Isle Of Wight
IOW I/O Write
IOW International Office for Water
IOW Intelligence Operations Workstation (USMC)
IOW Integrated Optical Waveguide
IOW Instruments of War (gaming group; Return to Castle Wolfenstein; Activision, Inc.)
IOW Information Operations Warfare
IOW Innovators of Wrestling
IOW Idiots on Wheels
IOW Institute for Occult Warfare (Nazi Germany)
IOW International One Way (rental fee)
IOW Iraq Occupation Watch (San Francisco, CA)
IOW Image of the Week (photography)
IOW Islands of the World

Unless explicitly stated as something else, IOW is universal short hand for In Other Words.

 

[Bilsch]

I was kinda hoping it was the Institute for Occult Warfare.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Unless explicitly stated as something else, IOW is universal short hand for In Other Words.

I thought it was another acronym related to LODO. Still a n00b in this brewing movement. Was thinking there was another forum besides LOB.

 

[Big Monk]

I thought it was another acronym related to LODO. Still a n00b in this brewing movement. Was thinking there was another forum besides LOB.

Im just shocked you found so many acronyms.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Well while you and I may agree oxidation is real, there are a ton of people out there who are outright deniers of it. Many of whom are Very loud, obnoxious, intrusive about it even.

I’ve always said low oxygen makes a very noticeable *difference* in the product. Maybe not everyone is as sensitive to it, but many of us are very in tune with it.

I don’t claim it’s universally *better* because there is such a thing as personal taste preference. Also some people may not perceive the additional time and equipment, however minimal it is, to be worth it to them.

Maybe they have also progressed to point where they comfortable at skill-wise and see no reason to change. A cost and time commitment.

If you drink it all the time I suspect that you wouldn't notice it or just get used to it. Accepted Quality level.

If somebody offers you free homebrew how many of you will note every flaw? I don't unless they ask about it specially or note they had a problem. Odds are they will think you're a jerk if it's unsolicited. Even if it's 100% spot on. They probably feel their beer is good and are insulted. References to a Beer geek vs a beer snob come to mind.

My guess brewing experience breeds some arrogance and insecurity based on your process and equipment description. Somebody on stainless LODO capable system with HLT, MLT HERMS/RIMS and conicals talking to people doing AG single step mashes in a cooler and a brew bucket is going to cause some gap when it comes to brewing discussion about process and quality.

The LODO guy has more money invested in equipment, has committed more time brewing, has educated himself in professional level brewing practices, probably knows more about the range of ingredients and how to use them.

In most cases the other guy while an enthusiast hasn't gone to that level for reasons like finances, family time, having met an acceptable quality level. Probably spends more time drinking than he does on his brewing hobby