Are Cryo/LupuLN2 hops not just a T20?

[Mer-man]

T90 pellets are 10% of the bract removed.
T45 pellets are 55% of the bract removed.

Are Cryo hops anything other than a pellet with further reduction of bract content?

As contrasted with hop hash, which would be the lupulin gland fraction that falls out during milling.

 

[Dgallo]

T90 pellets are 10% of the bract removed.
T45 pellets are 55% of the bract removed.

Are Cryo hops anything other than a pellet with further reduction of bract content?

As contrasted with hop hash, which would be the lupulin gland fraction that falls out during milling.

Cryo are the extracted resin glands from the hops. Hop hash isn’t anywhere near as pure and the heat produced though processing which hash is yielded from has the ability to isomerize some of the alphas, making hop hash much harsher than cryo. LU2 are the same as cryo, they just come from a different supplier

 

[Vale71]

the heat produced though processing which hash is yielded from has the ability to isomerize some of the alphas,

No, it hasn't. To isomerize alphas through heat alone you first need to dissolve them in water, which is what happens during boil. To achieve isomerization in a dry state you need to mix in some catalyst, as was the case in the now rather outdated pre-isomerized pellets. But aroma could suffer, of course.

 

[Vale71]

Are Cryo hops anything other than a pellet with further reduction of bract content?

Nope. The main difference is that T45 pellets where mostly meant for bittering and hence were manufactured from bittering (i.e. usually high alpha) varieties. CryoHops or other equivalent products are intended for dry-hopping and are therefore manufactured from the most popular aroma varieties.

 

[Dgallo]

No, it hasn't. To isomerize alphas through heat alone you first need to dissolve them in water, which is what happens during boil. To achieve isomerization in a dry state you need to mix in some catalyst, as was the case in the now rather outdated pre-isomerized pellets. But aroma could suffer, of course.

I’m getting poor information from professional brewers than

 

[Vale71]

Looks like it. According to this source it takes, after the addition of 1-3% MgO as a catalyst, 8 to 14 days storage at 45-55°C temperature to achieve full isomerization. Without a catalyst the process would probably be 10^6 or more times slower, so that instead of days it would probably take years of warm storage just to achieve partial isomerization. I'm sure that during processing hops are not exposed to such temperatures for more than a few seconds or at most minutes, which cannot possibly have any measurable effect.

 

[Dgallo]

Looks like it. According to this source it takes, after the addition of 1-3% MgO as a catalyst, 8 to 14 days storage at 45-55°C temperature to achieve full isomerization. Without a catalyst the process would probably be 10^6 or more times slower, so that instead of days it would probably take years of warm storage just to achieve partial isomerization. I'm sure that during processing hops are not exposed to such temperatures for more than a few seconds or at most minutes, which cannot possibly have any measurable effect.

My understand of hop hash is that it is yielded from the pulverizer and screens when producing T90 pellets. They scrape these parts of the machine after they have had measurable build ups. I have no idea how long these machines run prior to this but thinking of it at a profit margin standpoint, I would think it would run continuously for decent amount of time. Again I received this information through someone, not an article

 

[bierhaus15]

My understand of hop hash is that it is yielded from the pulverizer and screens when producing T90 pellets. They scrape these parts of the machine after they have had measurable build ups.

Hop hash was from T90 production as you mentioned. Although it was never really available as a standardized product to breweries outside of the PNW and is not the same process as T45 production. Cryo hops are nothing new, they are equivalent to a T30-45 and have been around for a long time. As mentioned, it was the switch to producing them from aroma varieties where they came into popularity. Pelletizing the resulting power into loose pellets for dry hopping also helped.

 

[Vale71]

I'm not doubting how hop hash is produced, I simply doubt that without a catalyst any measurable amount of isomerization can occur. Even if the hash were to be exposed to such temperatures for such a long time that the resulting product would be totally ruined from an aroma standpoint you would still not get any measurable increase in IBUs. But the effect on taste would probably be so bad that no brewery would want to buy it...

 

[bierhaus15]

I'm not doubting how hop hash is produced, I simply doubt that without a catalyst any measurable amount of isomerization can occur.

Agreed. My point was more that 'hop hash' and cryo are not made from the same process.

On bitterness, I've heard mumbling that beers made from said hop products are more susceptible to oxidation, resulting in the perception of increased bitterness via humulinones and hulupones.

 

[Dgallo]

Hop hash was from T90 production as you mentioned. Although it was never really available as a standardized product to breweries outside of the PNW and is not the same process as T45 production. Cryo hops are nothing new, they are equivalent to a T30-45 and have been around for a long time. As mentioned, it was the switch to producing them from aroma varieties where they came into popularity. Pelletizing the resulting power into loose pellets for dry hopping also helped.

There is a difference though. T45 pellets use heat to make the resin gland less sticky so a greater portion of them can be sifted after pulverizing and less hop material will be added when forming t45 pellets vs. t90. Cryo Hops use cryogenics/liquid nitrogen to deep freeze the hops to easy harvest resin glands from the hop with little to no veg material making it into the final product.

 

[bierhaus15]

There is a difference though. T45 pellets use heat to make the resin gland less sticky so a greater portion of them can be sifted after pulverizing and less hop material will be added when forming t45 pellets vs. t90. Cryo Hops use cryogenics/liquid nitrogen to deep freeze the hops to easy harvest resin glands from the hop with little to no veg material making it into the final product.

From Stan Hieronymus: "T45, or lupulin-enriched, pellets, are manufactured from enriched hop powder. Processors mill the hops at about -20° F (-30º C), which reduces the stickiness of the resin, and separate the lupulin from unwanted fibrous vegetative matter. Although the name implies the hops are enriched to twice the level of T90s, the level may be restricted by the amount of lupulin in the original hop. Normally, processors customize the level, producing, for example, a T33 or a T72 pellet that would still be referred to as a T45 pellet."

 

[Dgallo]

From Stan Hieronymus: "T45, or lupulin-enriched, pellets, are manufactured from enriched hop powder. Processors mill the hops at about -20° F (-30º C), which reduces the stickiness of the resin, and separate the lupulin from unwanted fibrous vegetative matter. Although the name implies the hops are enriched to twice the level of T90s, the level may be restricted by the amount of lupulin in the original hop. Normally, processors customize the level, producing, for example, a T33 or a T72 pellet that would still be referred to as a T45 pellet."

Youre correct. I didn’t finish reading the article from YCH where they rebranded their T45 pellets using colder temps and named them cryo. Jump the gun lol

 

[Vale71]

I'd be surprised at any hop processing involving heating such a sensitive products with the resulting loss of freshness and aroma. Well, except for pre-isomerization of course.

 

[Mer-man]

I didn’t think hop hash was such a bad idea. I was thinking of using some for keg hopping to avoid vegetal matter.

But at least we’ve settled the cryo rebrand of T45s

 

[Mer-man]

Listening to the latest Hop and Brew School podcast, the guy from Yakima Chief stated quite clearly that cryo hops are T90's with half the vegetative matter removed.
QED.

 

[Dgallo]

Listening to the latest Hop and Brew School podcast, the guy from Yakima Chief stated quite clearly that cryo hops are T90's with half the vegetative matter removed.
QED.

Which makes them T45 pellets

 

[Mer-man]

Which makes them T45 pellets

Yep, given that the term T45 is applied to what anything with less vegetative matter than a T90.

 

[@thathopguy]

Nope. The main difference is that T45 pellets where mostly meant for bittering and hence were manufactured from bittering (i.e. usually high alpha) varieties. CryoHops or other equivalent products are intended for dry-hopping and are therefore manufactured from the most popular aroma varieties.

Not entirely correct, Type 45's were produced to increase the alpha of noble varieties such as Saaz and Tradition to reduce shipping costs and reduce brewhouse loadings. High alpha hops don't lend themselves to type 45 production as forming a pellet is almost impossible with the higher resin to polyphenol content ratios.

 

[bellhp]

Welcome to the party

@thathopguy ​

 

[Dgallo]

Not entirely correct, Type 45's were produced to increase the alpha of noble varieties such as Saaz and Tradition to reduce shipping costs and reduce brewhouse loadings. High alpha hops don't lend themselves to type 45 production as forming a pellet is almost impossible with the higher resin to polyphenol content ratios.

Revitalizing a dead thread. I like it. That said, I agree the vale on this one. US brewers used t45 hops for high alpha varieties to minimize loses during the IBU wars

 

[@thathopguy]

Not a product line I was familiar with in my time in Hops. I certainly never heard of it...I stand by what I said though. High alpha type 45's were not what the process was developed for..it's hard enough to make type 90s from really high alpha hops, say anything above 18 % as you run into milling and pressing issues impacting, efficiencies and density.

 

[Brooothru]

My understand of hop hash is that it is yielded from the pulverizer and screens when producing T90 pellets. They scrape these parts of the machine after they have had measurable build ups. I have no idea how long these machines run prior to this but thinking of it at a profit margin standpoint, I would think it would run continuously for decent amount of time. Again I received this information through someone, not an article

Plus, wouldn’t the heat produced from mechanical compression in the pulverizing device have an effect? Total BTUs generated might be low, but a rapid (even if short duration) spike in temperature might affect isomerization couldn’t it? Not unlike what happens to flaked grains when the are squeezed between rollers during processing.