Any Non RIMS/HERMS brewer agitate mash?

[bunt1828]

Full disclosure: I've got efficiency issues. For some reason, my AG batches have been achieving ~50% efficiency. I believe this is caused by inefficient temperature distribution throughout the grain. At this point I do not have a true false bottom, so I have been taking a page out of the BIAB playbook and using a large mesh bag. I assume no matter how much I poke and prod at the bag, there will be cold or even dry grain towards the middle of he bag. More recently, I've moved to a stainless 400 micron mesh filter. The filter has improved efficiency a few points, but I still can't help but think there are cold spots, and certainly a lot of room for improvement.

I've got a few ideas on how to improve my efficiency (better water chemistry, and I'd like to eventually convert my cooler to a RIMS a-la skidsmint https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/mash-bucket-system-399490/ ) but I'm wondering if simply agitating the mash to achieve more uniform temperatures would get me where I'm wanting to go. Right now I'm picturing some sort of cordless drill mounted to the lid of the cooler rotating something in the mash tun. I recently purchased a mash paddle (plastic spoon wasn't strong enough and was bending when I stirred) so I'm hoping that will be enough, but if it's not I want to be prepared with my next plan of attack. What do you guys think?

 

[JoppaFarms]

I get 75-78% efficiency on a regular basis without agitating. I simply heat my strike water, put the bag in the kettle, pour the grains in slowly and stir continuously to mix evenly and prevent dough balls, then I cover and wrap the kettle in a sleeping bag and don't touch it for 60-90 minutes depending on the recipe. Holds temp within 1 degree for 90 minutes. Then lift the bag, pour 170 degree "sparge" water through the grains, let the grains drain for about 5 minutes and toss them aside. I do mess with the chemistry a bit, distilled water with appropriate mineral profiles for the beer I'm making, but I guess at the pH (no meter just yet).

Sounds like we need to know a bit more about your process, grain crush level, etc to really narrow down your issue. I don't think it's a temp distribution thing with your setup. I'm not doing anything trend-setting and I'm getting rather good efficiency.

 

[Indian_villager]

. At this point I do not have a true false bottom, so I have been taking a page out of the BIAB playbook and using a large mesh bag.

1)Can you go into detail here? Are you trying the biab method in your boil kettle or in a cooler?

2)Do you not have any of outlet screen or are you on a simple braid?

3) Are you crushing your grains? If so with what? What is your procedure on crushing?

These are just some basic questions.

I am running a corona mill to crush my grains. I have a 10 gal cooler with a falsebottom (upgraded from bazooka tube) to do my mash in. With the tube I was hitting 80% eff, with the falsebottom I can hit about 85%.

Let me know your setup, I may have an extra bazooka screen to part with.

 

[ChadRabbit]

A trick that i was taught for BIAB guys is to "double mill" your crush. Doing that will up your efficiency quite a bit. It allows for easier extraction through the mesh.

 

[bunt1828]

So I use a 10gal cooler with a stainless mesh basket inside (see photo below, ignore the IC - just there for storage..)

Most times I purchase my grain pre-crushed online, but I have also used grain purchased and crushed at my LHBS with similar results. I don't have a mill so I'm pretty much stuck with what im given on that front. Since buying the mesh basket, my process is to heat the water and pour it into the cooler with the basket inside, then slowly dough in the grain while stirring to prevent clumps. Once ive added all the grain ill give it a good stir again, but to this point I've been using a plastic spoon that bends more than stirs.. Just bought a little wood mash paddle so hopefully that will help mix it all together a little better.

After 60-75 minutes ill do my best to slowly drain the wort into my kettle. I've done this a couple ways from just straight pouring off the bottom of the cooler, or using a siphon down the back side of the basket. The basket essentially acts as my false bottom. Most batches have been no-sparge, but on my last brew I did a slow fly sparge with no change in results (however it was only 1.5 gallons of sparge water...). I've also tried the "squeeze the bag" method to try and get maximum fluid yield (I won't believe the whole tannin thing until I taste it myself, and up to this point I still haven't) but that didn't help noticeably either.

So my plan of attack for this weekend's brew will be to mash thinner (1.25 qt/lb) and use more sparge water, fly sparge very slowly if possible or batch sparge if I'm flying solo, improve my water chemistry (most batches have been just RO with a little CaCl added), and ill do an iodine test to make sure I'm getting full conversion (have not done this on other batches).

So clearly ive got room for improvement in my method - only on AG batch # 6 so Im still working out the kinks. But with all that said, I still feel like slowly stirring the grains during the mash can only help. RIMS and HERMS accomplish something similar by slowly moving the fluid across the grain (as opposed to moving the grains within the fluid as I am suggesting) and I would imagine this type of dynamic interaction could more effectively draw out the sugars we are looking for than a more static mash would be able to.

 

[savannahbrew]

I noticed my efficiency improved drastically when I started asking my brew shop owner to crush my grains twice. I think sometimes their mills just get used so much they might be a little off. Plus it never hurts to try it!
Also figuring out your water volumes is super important too! I use the tool on brewers365 ( http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php ) which makes it really easy. Take the time to measure out your dead space and such. Sometimes poor water calculations gave me efficiency problems correcting these also helped me out alot. GoodLuck

 

[opiate82]

In addition to your CaCl additions, are you also adding a little acidulated malt to your grist (in accordance with the Water Chemistry Primer)? Ph could also be part of your issue, but honestly when these type of things pop up first thing I point to is grain crush.

I personally only stir when I am doughing in. I do give it an additional good 2-3 minutes of "stirring it like it owes me money" after all the grain is in, but I don't do any stirring once I begin the mash rest. I'm regularly up over 80% these day now that I have everything dialed in.

 

[Bobby_M]

Have you been trying to fly sparge with that basket? If so, I'm 99% positive that's your problem. The sparge water will want to exit the basket and run down the sides because it's easier. Try batch sparging and stir the crap out of it when you add the sparge water.

 

[BeerGrylls]

^^^^^ this. You can only batch sparge with that thing, but it's still far from optimal. You're better off using that as a BK hop stopper, and get a false bottom or bazooka screen.

 

[Indian_villager]

You are making one hell of a headache for yourself with that mesh basket. When you fly sparge with it you are flowing water outward as soon as possible (path of least resistance) as Bobby said.

Do yourself a favor.
This is exactly what I have for my 10 Gal cooler.
Bulkhead (choose option for 2 piece valve)
http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=47&product_id=240

Screen
http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=47&product_id=171

With this exact setup I have gotten great results. Once I started crushing my own grains my efficiencies went way up! I got a good bit of my equipment (mill being one of them) by sending out amazon links for birthdays and Christmas.

FYI I have no affiliation to the listed site I am just mentioning where I got my exact setup years ago. There are many vendors on this site that will sell you similar if not the same equipment for competitive prices.

Ditch that mesh basket for the mash. It can probably be used elsewhere. Looks like a great hopspider.

 

[bunt1828]

Thanks for the suggestions. I got 58% this weekend so that's a step in the right direction I guess. I'll keep making changes to get where it should be, but I still feel like agitation would be helpful regardless. Maybe one of these days ill put together a test rig and see what happens. But I suppose for now ill just focus on the basics.


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[Indian_villager]

Was that your only change? To agitate more in your current equipment?

 

[bunt1828]

No, this time I did give it a better stir than i could previously and got more uniform temp, but what probably had the biggest impact was I mashed as thin as possible and then batch sparged with as much water as my pot could handle (only about 3 more gallons). Now I see what you guys were saying about the basket - if I used a more traditional false bottom I could mash in even thinner and sparge with even more water which would increase efficiency even further.


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[gstrawn]

What is your mash thickness?? Increasing it to ~1.5 qts/ pound may create some more uniformity and less heat loss


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[bunt1828]

I was a little over 1.4. I would like to go lower but can't really because of the "dead space" around the outside if the basket. Before this batch I was doing 1.75. Regardless of the ratio used the efficiency of my first runnings has been a fairly consistent 50% (except for the time I put them all into one big bag - that time I got 44% but I'm sure that's because there was a clump in the middle). Second runnings on this last batch bumped up overall efficiency 7-8 points.


Just so I am clear, if I do an iodine test (with idophor) and it does not get darker when wort is added, then I have effectively converted the starches to sugars (in that sample anyway), correct? So if I get a good iodine test but poor efficiency, then I am just doing a poor job of pulling those sugars into the boil kettle?


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