Any advice for this recipe ?

[kipox]

Hi everyone,

I'm new to homebrewtalk and here is my first post! I am also new to homebrewing, I brewed 2 recipes (one IPA and one Stout) and it came great for both. Here is my new step in homebrewing : trying to build a recipe that is balanced and closed to a "Czech Pilsner Ale" (Ok this will not be a real Pilsner because it will not be lagered, don't have the equipment...yet).

Here is the recipe :

Grain and extract :
- Cara-Pils/Dextrine : 8,818 oz --> steeped
- Pilsner (2 Row) : 8,818 oz --> steeped
- Weyermann - Bohemian Pilsner Malt : 8,818 oz --> steeped
- Briess DME - Pilsen Light : 1,887 lb --> 60 min boil
- Briess DME - Pilsen Light : 4,718 lb --> 15 min boil

Hops :
- Saaz (Cz) 4,5% : 1,000 oz --> 60 min boil
- Saaz (Cz) 4,5% : 1,500 oz --> 30 min boil
- Saaz (Cz) 4,5% : 1,500 oz --> 10 min boil
- Saaz (Cz) 4,5% : 1,000 oz --> at flameout for aroma
- Saaz (Cz) 4,5% : 2,000 oz --> Dry Hop for 2 week

Yeast:
Safale S-05 Ale

Fermentation : 4 weeks in primary at 66-68 farenheit with 2 weeks of dryhopping directly in the primary.


Feel free to make any comments or suggestion on this. I'm a noob in homebrewing and I really need some advices.

Thank you and have a great day,

Benoit.

 

[Jayhem]

Some comments:

1. Is this a 5 gallon sized batch?

2. That's a lot of hops for a balanced beer even if they are low AA%. What does the total bitterness (IBU) come up as in your brewing software? Something like this should probably have only 20-25 total IBU's.

3. Nottingham Ale Yeast will result in a cleaner (lager-like) flavor since it can ferment down to 58 F and produce a very clean flavor profile. Obviously you would need temp control to ferment this low as most people's homes are not this cold even in winter.

4. You really won't gain anything by steeping base malts (Pilsner malt), it has to be mashed to convert to fermentable sugars. Look into BIAB and partial mash. All you need is a grain bag, a thermometer and a pot!

 

[JR_Brewer]

Hey Benoit,

Welcome to the hobby! Here are a few notes on your pilsner:

Your 2 pilsner grain malts (not the DME) is a base malt that needs to be mashed before you can brew with it. A simple steep won't cut it. Honestly, I don't think you need this in here. Either remove it, or do a mini-mash (you can look that up here on HBT).

It looks like a LOT of hops. If you're trying to be true to style, you'll need to use a brewing app (I use tastybrew) and get your IBUs within the style guidelines.

 

[kipox]

Hi there,

Thank you both for your comments. Yes it is a 5gal batch. I'll reduce the hop quantities as soon as i get home.
I think that i'll just simply remove the Pilsner Malt. What do you think of the two other grain type? Should I steep more of it? Do you have any idea of other specialty grains that would match?

Thank you for the advice on Nottingham Ale Yeast! I surely will try it ( i tried both us05 and us04 on my previous recipes).

Thank's again!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[JR_Brewer]

What do you think of the two other grain type? Should I steep more of it? Do you have any idea of other specialty grains that would match?

I think your grains look pretty good, typically, a pils is a very simple beer. Pilsner base malt and a little light crystal. Cara-pils is the common crystal/caramel specialty malt used, but you could use carafoam, cystal 10/20, or if you want to go wild maybe caravienne or caramunich. For the lighter malts, maybe up to a pound (but the 8 oz you have is fine); for the darker I'd say around 4oz and no more than 8 oz.

Happy brewing!

 

[Horseballs]

If it were me, I would ditch the carapils and add a portion of melanoiden malt. For one, the extract you are planning on using is already made with about 6% carapils to begin with, steeping some more isn't really going to add much to the beer. The melanoiden malt will give you some of the flavor that you would get from a decoction, which is the traditional way of brewing a pilsner beer. I'd also stick with a lot of hops like you have - pilsner is a hoppy and bitter beer style. As for yeast, if you are fermenting at 68 I would get as far away from nottingham as possible. If you can ferment cold nottingham would work well for you, otherwise it will turn into an estery mess that doesn't resemble a pilsner. For 68 try something like S-05 or even WLP810/WY2112.

In summary:

steep pilsner and melanoiden malt
use the lightest extract you can
hop it up with saaz
ferment with S-05, WLP810 or WY2112

 

[kipox]

First of all,

Thank you very much for all of your answers. I read a bit more on the pilsner beer style and especially on the Pilsner Urquell one. I think that I will keep the same amount of Saaz hop but I will reschedule these to finish with 40 IBU.

For the grain part, I'm a bit lost... Is the Bohemian Pilsner malt is also a base malt that need to be mashed (like the Pilsner malt) ? If so, I should remove it from my recipe ?
I've seen a recipe of Pilsner Urquell clone that use Weyermann Acidulated Malt as specialty grain, what do you think about that ?
I maybe just stick with melanoiden malt, acidulated malt and bohemian pilsner or carafoam malt.

For the yeast, I will certainly not be able to keep the fermentation temperature below 66-64 farenheit... so the Us05 yeast seems to be the better alternative.

Thanks again for your advices, I do need further help on the grain bill! ;-)

Hava all a great day.

Benoit

 

[kipox]

Another thing i went through : is the melanoiden malt will add to much color to my brew? Won't my brew be reddish?


Thank you

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[JR_Brewer]

Looks like no one has answered your follow up questions, so I'll give it a try.

Bohemian Pilsner and acidulated malt are base malts. So either elimninate or do a mini-mash.

Melanoiden is a pretty dark malt, so you would need to use very sparingly (or not at all) if you're trying to achieve the right color.

BTW, here's a great resource, the malt chart on HBT. It also lets you know which malts need to be mashed and which can just be steeped.

Finally, can't really go wrong with US-05. However, like you, I don't lager, and have used Wyeast 1007 German Ale in the past to ferment what should have been a lager. It worked well, but you'll need to keep it below 68.

Best,
JB

 

[Beer-lord]

I second 1007. Last year I used it on a pilsner and no one could tell. I have a faux RyePL blowing up right now. The yeast will work fine in the mid to upper 50's though mine is about 63. Nice, clean profile.
It does seem to have some problems getting to FG and it takes a long time to clear but for those of us that just can't lager, this is the yeast for us.

 

[kipox]

Thank you for the advices on the grain and on the yeast!
I think that something is really not clear in my mind : difference between mashing and steeping... Can you make a recipe with extract that also involve mashing ? If so, I could totally use bohemian pilsner malt or/and acidulated malt.

Here is a recipe of bohemian pilsner in all grain, partial mash and extract --> http://byo.com/stories/beer-styles/item/247-bohemian-pilsner-style-profile
They use acidulated malt in the extract one...

Thanks again.

 

[JR_Brewer]

Thank you for the advices on the grain and on the yeast!
I think that something is really not clear in my mind : difference between mashing and steeping... Can you make a recipe with extract that also involve mashing ? If so, I could totally use bohemian pilsner malt or/and acidulated malt.

Here is a recipe of bohemian pilsner in all grain, partial mash and extract --> http://byo.com/stories/beer-styles/item/247-bohemian-pilsner-style-profile
They use acidulated malt in the extract one...

Thanks again.

Sure thing! Let me see if I can answer your questions... but I'm sure some others will jump in with some more detail.

While I've never used it, I believe the purpose of acidulated malt is as much to add lactic acid to the malt as to serve as a source of fermentable sugars for the wort.

The difference between steeping and mashing... that's a little more complex, and BYO isn't doing you any favors in this case. An hour long steep is generally a mash, let me explain.

The mash is a process that (from Palmer): "hydrates the barley, activates the malt enzymes, and converts the grain starches into fermentable sugars." It also extracts flavor components from the grain. The key here is that starches are converted to simple sugars. A mash generally lasts 60-90 minutes and uses temperatures between 146-158 F (there are exeptions including stepped mashes, but that's close enough).

The point of steeping to extract the flavor components of the grain. While some conversion will naturally take place, this is not the point. Steeping often happens between 150-170 deg F for 20-30 minutes.

Mashing will extract about 70-90% of the potential fermentable sugars from the grain, while steeping would produce much lower levels of fermentable sugars (a decent amout will be complex starches the yeast won't eat).

However, BYO in this case has a 60 minute "steep." Normally we would call this a mash, but they're doing it at 170 degrees, which is above standard mash temps. I take BYO with a grain of salt.

So finally, here's what I would do if I were you. Either steep the acidulated malt at 170 for 20 minutes (just to get the lactic acid in your wort) or mini-mash it at ~150 degrees for an hour (to get the lactic acid and to convert the malt and extract more fermentable sugar).

Happy brewing

 

[kipox]

Nice answer ! I think I'll try to mini-mash for the first time... It don't look to be that much difficult, i 'll just have to be careful to maintain the good temperature for 60-90 minutes!
Another question then, i read in threads speaking about mashing that it is sometimes needed to have some "protein rest". Can I mash the grain without this method? If not what are the risks?

Thanks again and have a great day.

Benoit

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[kipox]

Ok! I read the Charlie Papazian's book "The Complete Joy of Homebrewing", especially the Intermediate Brewer chapter with the introduction to mashing.
There a recipe named "Top Drop Pilsener" where the mashing process can be resume as :
- keep the grain in water between 130-135 °F for 30 minutes = protein rest and nutrients development
- raise the temperature between 149-155°F and maintain for 45 min = development of fermentable sugars
- Hold the temp at 158°F for 10-20 min = complete conversion
- sparge with 170°F water

Then continue the classic extract process.

Thinking of doing that method!
Any advice or comment on this ?

Thanks!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[JR_Brewer]

That's the stepped mash approach I briefly mentioned before, and it's definitely an acceptable way to go. People debate the true impact of a stepped mash, but it won't hurt anything to try... give it a go and let us know how it works out.

As far as advice, you can use the Mash Infusion calculator at Tastybrew to calculate your water temps required for a stepped mash. I'm sure there are other calculators that will work, but that's what I use for mashing and it's always worked out well.

 

[IslandLizard]

Mashing is easy, fun, smells great and makes you feel like a real brewer.

Mash in a pot large enough to hold your grains and strike water. After stirring the mash well, place in a preheated but turned off oven to keep the temperature. Or cover with blankets, sleeping bag, etc.

You can stir at the midway point or do a stepped mash by reheating and stirring to the next temperature. This is really easy to do in a pot on the stove. Make absolutely sure nothing scorches and the whole pot gets to the same temperature evenly. Don't overshoot it, you'll start killing the enzymes! Then put back in oven.

When the mash is done, strain into another large pot or bucket using a colander or mesh strainer, lined with a grain bag, a piece of voile curtain, or cheese cloth to catch the small bits. You may want to vorlauf and pitch that quart or so back on top of the grain bed which is the actual filter. When you got nice clear wort, put that in your boil kettle. Sparge the grains with 170-180°F water, either by pouring over the top (easy) or stirring the grains with the sparge water back up in the pot (better). Repeat the straining (lautering).

Make sure your grains are milled finely, but not to powder/flour, even run them through the mill twice. It helps to get a good partial mash efficiency. Homebrew shops typically grind too coarsely. You don't have to worry about stuck sparges with this mashing method either.

 

[kipox]

Hi everyone,

Here is a little update of this thread as I have brewed yesterday.
The final recipe is :
-2 lb bohemian pilsner
- 2lb carafoam
- 1 lb Acidulated malt

Crushed at home and stepped mashed following the process read in Charlie Papazian's book.

- 1lb Pilsen DME @ 60 min
- 3 lb Pilsen DME @ 15 min (late addition)
- 0,8oz Saaz pellets @ 60min
- 1,8oz Saaz pellets @ 30min
- 1,2oz Saaz pellets @ 15min
- 1,2oz Saaz pellets @ flameout

Cooled to 62-64 deg F and WLP029 yeast starter added. The beer is now happily bubbling with a nice Krausen on top of it.

OG is 1,054 : really happy because it's exactly what Brewtarget calculated.
IBU should be 39,9.

I'm now really impatient to taste the result!

Thanks again to all of you and happy brewing!

Benoit

 

[kipox]

Ok... After more reading on the acidulated malt... I'm a bit afraid that I've used to much of it... I hope that my beer won't turn to sour or acid...

 

[kipox]

Ok,

Another update : I've tasted the gravity sampler I took yesterday, it tasted really good and not sour at all! That's a good news!

I'll bottle it on the weekend as the final gravity is reached.

Have a great day!