Am I wasting my hops?

[Robin0782]

I'm curious if perhaps I am using more hops than I really need to. I see so many IPA recipes on here that don't use anywhere near what I use... I typically am using 10 oz for a 6-7% abv IPA. Using less in the past hasn't gotten the flavor and aroma that I want. I really like my hoppy beers... hoppy.

Here's the hop schedule for my last IPA, my best to date.

2 oz Centennial @ 60 min
1 oz Centennial @ 15
1 oz Centennial @ 5
1 oz Centennial @ 2
1 oz Centennial @ 1
2 oz Centennial @ Flame out (steeped 15 minutes)
2 oz Citra Dry Hop for 2 weeks

I brew partial mash, and do a partial boil, so that automatically ups the 60 min addition. But still, I wish I could get the same flavor/aroma using less ounces. Maybe 6-7 total. Hops aren't so cheap these days. I guess maybe I could try using more potent hops. My next beer is going to be a Centennial and Columbus IPA.

Any thoughts?

 

[BrewThruYou]

5 gallons?

 

[skeezerpleezer]

If I was looking to cut 3 oz out, it would be the 1 and 2 minute additions, then using a cheap and high alpha hop like warrior to bitter-that would save you another oz, and not cost much if any flavor/aroma.

Doing a bigger boil would be the best way to reduce hops though.

 

[afr0byte]

I didn't calculate the estimated IBUs, but I'd bet they're going to be less than 100 for that schedule (~100 being the estimated bitterness threshold for humans). So, no, I don't think you're wasting the hops if you're getting the flavor you want.

 

[Robin0782]

I start my batches at 5.5 gallons.

I do want to eventually start doing full boils, but right now it's just not workable.

As for IBUs, since I am topping up to 5.5 from about 3.25 gallons, I'm losing bitterness there. I am sure I could get away with just 1 oz at 60 if I did a full boil, but I always use at least 2 oz since I dilute. I never really get my IPA as bitter as I would like, but it's decent enough.

I will try cutting out the 1 and 2 min additions for my next batch and see what happens.

 

[cdubbaya]

I never really get my IPA as bitter as I would like, but it's decent enough.

I will try cutting out the 1 and 2 min additions for my next batch and see what happens.

Dry hopping and late addition hops don't really add to "bitterness", they are strictly aroma. It really takes 45-60 minutes to get bittering utilization from hops.

If you really want to get a "bitter" flavor from your IPA, move some of that centennial to earlier in the boil, or maybe use a higher AA hop to get more, since you are only doing partial boils. Obviously more volume means more hop utilization too.

the IBU formula takes a ton of variables into consideration, most of which you can control as a brewer. Think about the weight, AA% of hops boil time, boil volume, hop type (pellet vs whole), etc. You can design a beer that tastes like you want by altering any of those variables.

 

[Stauffbier]

If you like hops that much you should look into growing your own. I'll be attempting it this spring myself..

 

[PoppinCaps]

Also think about keeping the gravity of the wort equal to your final gravity throughout the boil. That is, add 3.25/5.5 (or about 60%) of your extract at the beginning of the boil with your bittering hops, and the rest about 10-15 from flame out. You should have better utilization of the alpha acids that way, or at least control that variable.

I would also second a high AA hop for bitterness. Much cheaper.

 

[r2eng]

Move some of the <10min hops to 25 - 20 minutes additions. You'll get better flavor retention that way.

IMO, I have a similar amount of hops, but move the additions to 25, 20, 15 and 10. Then dry hop.

IMO the flame-out and <5 minute additions can be dropped if you dry hop heavily.

 

[skeezerpleezer]

I start my batches at 5.5 gallons.

I do want to eventually start doing full boils, but right now it's just not workable.

As for IBUs, since I am topping up to 5.5 from about 3.25 gallons, I'm losing bitterness there. I am sure I could get away with just 1 oz at 60 if I did a full boil, but I always use at least 2 oz since I dilute. I never really get my IPA as bitter as I would like, but it's decent enough.

I will try cutting out the 1 and 2 min additions for my next batch and see what happens.

If you use a hop like warrior that is 2x the alpha% than centennial you can get by with 1oz. The 1 and 2 additions are mostly supplying aroma that late in the boil. If you want to keep the hops in there and want more flavor move some of them to 15, for more aroma I would just dryhop with them, that way they are in the final volume.

 

[heywatchthis]

Move some of the <10min hops to 25 - 20 minutes additions. You'll get better flavor retention that way.

IMO, I have a similar amount of hops, but move the additions to 25, 20, 15 and 10. Then dry hop.

IMO the flame-out and <5 minute additions can be dropped if you dry hop heavily.

Not to be a contrarian (sp?), but I completely disagree with this. In my IPAs, I tend to use 10-14 oz (hop depending) and tend HEAVILY toward the late additions.

IMO, 25 and 20 minute additions are a holdover from the old standard hopping schedule of 60/30/15. If you want huge flavor/aroma, add tons of hops at 10 minutes and then at KO (half a flame out and half after chill starts). Then dry hop heavily. This gives tons of aroma, and we all know from biology that taste is 75%(or higher) what you smell.

 

[r2eng]

Sounds like the OP needs to experiment!

Maybe our taste buds are different! I have found the later additions 5min to KO flavor components disappear quickly. At first it seems to add tons of flavor, but as I said, the 20mins add flavor that retains. 2 months after it's carb'd the flavor of the 5mins to KO dissipates quickly, as does the aroma.

Have you found this heywatchthis? Not arguing, just curious.

 

[trent]

I'm curious if perhaps I am using more hops than I really need to.

You are fine. I use a minimum of 3-4 dry hops per 5 gal batch. Then 4-6 oz doing boil.

 

[phenry]

I've actually seen both sides of the story that r2eng and heywatchthis are going over. Later hops do fade faster in my experience, but I have a DIPA that only had a FWH and 60 minute addition for bittering, then a massive KO and double dry hop that still has a HUGE aroma and hop kick in the tongue. It was brewed in August which goes to show how long it's lasted. It has been stored at ~50*F its entire life, so that does make a big difference compared to an IPA stored at 75*F on a grocery store shelf...

On the other hand, if I brew a simple IPA with a 1 oz addition at 15, 5, and KO, the aroma is basically gone after 2 months, stored the same as the DIPA mentioned earlier.

So, to summarize my experiences: the more you throw at a beer's late additions, the longer the aroma will persist. Double dry hopping helps IMO, as does cooling down the wort quickly.

The best thing you can do to preserve an IPAs hoppiness though is proper storage, and of course drinking them young.

edit: To answer the question: I feel like using a full boil will help your hops shine through. With your wort concentrated in partial boils, it's harder for the alpha acids to go into solution. Or at least that's what my chemistry background is telling me.

 

[r2eng]

I wonder if some types of hops (alpha/beta acids) lend themselves better to later/earlier additions, too.

hmm...

 

[afr0byte]

I wonder if some types of hops (alpha/beta acids) lend themselves better to later/earlier additions, too.

hmm...

Yes, they do. I don't know how serious you're being, but there's a reason why some hops are considered bittering hops and some are considered flavor or aroma.

 

[phenry]

I wonder if some types of hops (alpha/beta acids) lend themselves better to later/earlier additions, too.

hmm...

Well, the ones that I usually brew with reserved amounts of hops use Cascade heavily (5.5%) and the big IPAs are usually brewed with Chinook (10.3%), Simcoe (14.1%), Amarillo (10.9%), and Centennial (9.9%). Could be some truth behind that speculation.

 

[Robin0782]

Maybe our taste buds are different! I have found the later additions 5min to KO flavor components disappear quickly. At first it seems to add tons of flavor, but as I said, the 20mins add flavor that retains. 2 months after it's carb'd the flavor of the 5mins to KO dissipates quickly, as does the aroma.

My beers don't last more than about 4 weeks from kegging.

You are fine. I use a minimum of 3-4 dry hops per 5 gal batch. Then 4-6 oz doing boil.

The thing that really got my wondering about this was the recipe on here for a Two Hearted clone that used 4.5 oz total hops... I just can't believe you are going to get Two Hearted level hop flavor/aroma from 4.5 oz. The beer I'm drinking right now, hop schedule in the original post used 10 oz and has really good aroma and flavor. Right in the realm of Two Hearted.

I'm doing a Columbus and Centennial IPA in a few weeks. Something like this is my plan. 8 oz total hops.

4.5 lbs Briess Golden DME
4 lbs Marris Otter
1 lb Munich
8 oz White Wheat

1.5 oz. Columbus @ 60 min
1 oz. Columbus, 1 oz Centennial @ 15 min
1.5 oz. Centennial @ 5 min
.5 oz. Columbus, .5 oz. Centennial @ Flame Out (Steeped for 15 minutes)
1 oz. Columbus, 1 oz. Centennial - Dry Hop

US-05 pint starter

Est .OG - 1.060
Est. FG - 1.011
Est. ABV - 6.4%

I will add 1.5 lbs of my extract before the boil, and the other 3 lbs with 15 minutes remaining to try and get better utilization. I will dilute from 3.25 up to 5.5, but I should get decent bitterness with the 15.4% AA Columbus. We'll see what happens!

 

[r2eng]

Yes, they do. I don't know how serious you're being, but there's a reason why some hops are considered bittering hops and some are considered flavor or aroma.

Well, I my ears are beginning to dry but I was being serious. However, more specifically to flavor hop types... I do know the difference

Example: Centennial seems to fade quicker than Amarillo, Simcoe, etc. Perle seems to stay around forever. And, yes, I know they have different AA, oils, etc. I love Centennial, and I only get flavor retention at 20-15 minute additions, and then heavy dry hopping for aroma.

I am talking hop chemistry, more than the more obvious bittering vs flavor vs. aroma.

 

[Beezer94]

Well, I my ears are beginning to dry but I was being serious. However, more specifically to flavor hop types... I do know the difference

Example: Centennial seems to fade quicker than Amarillo, Simcoe, etc. Perle seems to stay around forever. And, yes, I know they have different AA, oils, etc. I love Centennial, and I only get flavor retention at 20-15 minute additions, and then heavy dry hopping for aroma.

I am talking hop chemistry, more than the more obvious bittering vs flavor vs. aroma.

Yes I agree that some hops definitely persist longer (regardless of whether you call them "bittering" or "aroma" type hops). Nelson Sauvin mixed with most other hops will seem to stick around long after every other flavor has faded. I assume some aroma/flavor compounds are just more stable than others.

 

[afr0byte]

Well, I my ears are beginning to dry but I was being serious. However, more specifically to flavor hop types... I do know the difference

Example: Centennial seems to fade quicker than Amarillo, Simcoe, etc. Perle seems to stay around forever. And, yes, I know they have different AA, oils, etc. I love Centennial, and I only get flavor retention at 20-15 minute additions, and then heavy dry hopping for aroma.

I am talking hop chemistry, more than the more obvious bittering vs flavor vs. aroma.

I was talking about hop chemistry too. The chemical makeup of the hop determines if they're better for bittering, flavor, or aroma. Beezer94 is probably right about the stability of different flavor compounds. You, or we (as humans), are also probably less sensitive to certain hop flavors.

 

[pm5k00]

I would do something like this

1-1.5 oz Warrior/Summit/Nugget (or whatever high AA you have) @ 60 min
1-1.5 oz Centennial @ 20
2 oz Centennial @ Flame out (cool to 180 then steeped 20-30 minutes then continue to cool)
2 oz Citra Dry Hop for 2 weeks

 

[jtejedor]

I'm curious if perhaps I am using more hops than I really need to. I see so many IPA recipes on here that don't use anywhere near what I use... I typically am using 10 oz for a 6-7% abv IPA. Using less in the past hasn't gotten the flavor and aroma that I want. I really like my hoppy beers... hoppy.

Here's the hop schedule for my last IPA, my best to date.

2 oz Centennial @ 60 min
1 oz Centennial @ 15
1 oz Centennial @ 5
1 oz Centennial @ 2
1 oz Centennial @ 1
2 oz Centennial @ Flame out (steeped 15 minutes)
2 oz Citra Dry Hop for 2 weeks

I brew partial mash, and do a partial boil, so that automatically ups the 60 min addition. But still, I wish I could get the same flavor/aroma using less ounces. Maybe 6-7 total. Hops aren't so cheap these days. I guess maybe I could try using more potent hops. My next beer is going to be a Centennial and Columbus IPA.

Any thoughts?

I have been finding the same thing myself so I don't think it's just you. Of course its personal preference some people might not want to use that many hops. As has been mentioned these late additions do tend to fade but I always thought that was just the nature of them. After about a month is when the aroma starts to fade for me but I try not to let my ipas get that old .