Aged Hops Question

[SourLover]

I'm starting to work on my recipes for this winters brewing season, and I'm hoping for some help on a Lambic style recipe. The only question at this point is regarding the hops. This will be my first time attempting to use aged hops. I've attached a photo of what I will probably purchase. How many ounces of this would I want to use in a 12-13 gallon batch? Yeast wise, I'm not sure what I will use, but it may be Wyeast 3278, WLP655, or something from ECY. I want something with pedio for sure, but it will all depend on what I can secure as it comes closer to brewing time.
Any help is appreciated.

 

[cactusgarrett]

The last lambic-esque I did most recently had 6oz/12gal of aged hops (purchased) in the boil. It's surprising but sources actually state to use quite a bit, since you don't have to worry about IBU. Jeff Sparrow (in Wild Brews) suggests 0.8 oz/gal, but I've found 0.2-0.6oz/gal is more reasonable, as suggested by articles in BYO and Milk The Funk.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Hops#Aged_Hops_in_Lambichttps://www.morebeer.com/articles/Brewing_Lambic_at_Home

 

[SourLover]

Thanks for the advice, and the links to the articles. I’m not sure why, but I always forget about Milk The Funk. The Morebeer article was a great one. Part way through it I remembered reading portions of it last year. This time I read it from start to finish. It is a very good article.

Originally I had wanted to age hops myself, but if I can secure aged hops easily enough I’m not sure what the point would be to do it myself, other than just to be able to say I did.

 

[DuncB]

Just checking, you only use old / out of date hops for a lambic?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Just checking, you only use old / out of date hops for a lambic?

Traditionally, yes. You can still make a great Lambic-style beer with fresh hops though.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Yeast wise, I'm not sure what I will use, but it may be Wyeast 3278, WLP655, or something from ECY. I want something with pedio for sure, but it will all depend on what I can secure as it comes closer to brewing time.
Any help is appreciated.

I'd strongly suggest you try a mixture of bottle dregs instead of a commercial culture. There are lists online of which ones have viable microbes left in them, so basically choose ones off the list that have a flavour profile you like. You'll almost certainly have pedio in there - it seems to be the 'last man standing'. The bonus is that you get to drink before using the dregs!

 

[cactusgarrett]

Just checking, you only use old / out of date hops for a lambic?

RIght. Homebrew shops often have a stash of old stuff "in the basement" that they can sell for super cheap. Various online shops will also sell specific "lambic hops" for pretty cheap. Example ($1/oz)

Conversely, you can age your own by just letting some sit at room temperature, unsealed (ex. paper bag) for at least a year. Whole cone is better than pellets, as it's easier for air to get at the cone versus the pellets being so compressed and relatively less accessible to air. Pellets will work, they just takes longer to age out. Either way, if you're aging your own, grab as low AA hops as possible.

 

[SourLover]

I'd strongly suggest you try a mixture of bottle dregs instead of a commercial culture. There are lists online of which ones have viable microbes left in them, so basically choose ones off the list that have a flavour profile you like. You'll almost certainly have pedio in there - it seems to be the 'last man standing'. The bonus is that you get to drink before using the dregs!

I have done this in the past with mixed results, but I guess my biggest fear is not knowing what is in the bottle of some of my favorite gueuze/lambic inspired beers. I've been concerned about some being conditioned/carbonated with "killer" strains. Now that I think about it though I would assume anything that says "bottle conditioned" and any US breweries trying to do a truly gueuze/lambic inspired beer should be safe. Along with some fabulous Belgian beers, I've also had some great beers the last year from California breweries The Rare Barrel, The Bruery, Beachwood Blendery, and The Lost Abbey, and I have numerous of them on hand still. I guess I can just roll the dice. Maybe I'm way overthinking this?

Are you aware of any more current lists than the one shown in a link below?
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Are you aware of any more current lists than the one shown in a link below?
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/p/dreg-list.html

That's the list I always refer to.

 

[SourLover]

That's the list I always refer to.

I guess I've got some shopping to do then!

 

[Beer666]

What is the deal with the cheesy hops? I have 2 types of aged hops and one smells like old socks.

 

[goodolarchie]

if I can secure aged hops easily enough I’m not sure what the point would be to do it myself, other than just to be able to say I did.

Because so many breweries have some old whole cone Amarillo or Liberty from 2013 and if you ask nicely they'll probably just give them to you. I have about 16 lbs of old hops aging out, its easy to do and makes your closets smell pretty nice. Seems to keep bugs out too! That beats buying unidentified pellets (which age inconsistently), the source and repeatability of which is a total mystery.

 

[Beer666]

I made some vinegar from a sour brewed with cheesy hops and had a taste yesterday. Still a twang and smells like old socks.

I have a load of homegrown hops that smelled of nothing to start with. Are they suitable?

 

[JAReeves]

From what I understand, one of the reasons why lambic producers do an extended boil is to evaporate off the cheesy aromatics. My aged hops alternatively smell like raisins and funky cheese, depends on the day and the temperature in my garage, I suppose. I will be making another batch each of my pale wheat sour and my flanders red, both with these hops (~5% Huell Melon pellets, aged 2+years) and a 90 minute boil. I have heard some Belgian producers do a 4-hour boil, so my 90 minutes might be low.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'm brewing my first sour tomorrow, using wyeast roeselare blend and after primary fermentation is complete, I'll rack it onto tart pie cherries.

The great folks at my LHBS have been guiding me in my first foray and today they generously gifted me a pound of really aromatic and cheesy old hops. They weren't entirely sure of the age but since these are plugs and they haven't sold plug hops in 20+ years, they all agreed that these are about that old. They have been stored in an opened but still tightly packed mylar pouch inside of a cardboard box so they remained dust- and bug-free, and the aroma is incredible. Cheesy enough to smell from a few feet away just as I have read about old hops, but also deeply aromatic with a great herbal-floral and spicy quality. I'm super thrilled to be brewing with them but wondering a bit about how much to use.

The carton that the hop bag came out of said willamette, 6.6% AA. As stated above, ~.6oz/gal is a good number and though I have read that there is little to no bittering potential left in them, traditionally low alpha noble strains are used. If they do retain their preservative qualities, I assume that too much will inhibit the various critters in the roeselare blend from doing their thing. Anyone know what I should do?

 

[Funky Frank]

Nice find! I’d say you’re right on with the .6oz/gal but I’d recommend adding some bottle dregs along the way at that hop level. If you want to try letting roeselare do it’s thing alone, then you might consider cutting that back to .2oz/gal or less for a new smack pack.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Nice find! I’d say you’re right on with the .6oz/gal but I’d recommend adding some bottle dregs along the way at that hop level. If you want to try letting roeselare do it’s thing alone, then you might consider cutting that back to .2oz/gal or less for a new smack pack.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm happy to keep adding dregs as it develops, I have some Lindeman's and Duchesse du B in my beer fridge, I also have some additional Wyeast wild & sour packs to add if needed; B. Lambicus, B. Bruxellensis, and L. Buchneri.

I'm seriously in love with the aroma of these hops and have the weird urge to make them pop in this lambic if that is possible, I would really love to showcase their flavor unless that is an obviously bad idea. I have enough for 2+ batches of sour ale and a bit leftover, so I was thinking of trying to capture that crazy rich aroma in a non-soured ale or maybe a liqueur or a hot sauce or something. TBH, cheesy old hops sounded super gross to me, but the reality is really intriguing and they have definitely fired up my palate.

 

[Beermeister32]

Go down to Total Wine and More and buy yourself a can of Rodenbach Sour Ale. I did a batch of sour with Roeselare and it tasted just like Rodenbach, but I didn’t care for the flavor of Roeselare. I ended up dumping the batch.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I've had Rodenbach Grand Cru a few times and enjoy it, don't recall if I've tried their classic.

If the Roeselare blend gives flavors similar to Rodenbach, my fruited sour with tart cherries may turn out similar to their Fruitage. I'll see if I can pick up some of that and try it out.

 

[Beermeister32]

It’s a fine beer, obviously people like it. For my taste, not good, wish I would have tasted it first. 2 years.....

So, buy a can. If you like it, you will like Roeselare. If not, you will save yourself a batch.

 

[Jayjay1976]

I'll definitely pick up the classic. We do share a lot of sours at brew club meetings, and based on shared experiences, Roeselare is where those guys pointed me so I'm giving it a go. I'll be adding assorted dregs as well as the fermentation progresses.

 

[Beermeister32]

Here is the exact spot I dumped it, along the side of our industrial building. 5.5 gallons of 2 year old otherwise good ale, but soured by Roeselare..... Yuck..!

 

[Funky Frank]

I always heard that some perps would just start to sing…lol.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Here is the exact spot I dumped it, along the side of our industrial building. 5.5 gallons of 2 year old otherwise good ale, but soured by Roeselare..... Yuck..!View attachment 735996

Maybe you're crap at brewing?

 

[Beermeister32]

Nah...

 

[Jayjay1976]

The brew went as expected, pitched the Roeselare blend and a sniff of the swelled pack confirmed my affinity for the flavor profile. The 4oz of 20+ year old hops smelled incredible throughout the boil, and to my nose, the wort carried a good measure of that rich herbal character into the fermenter.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Anyone know what I should do?

I pondered hop rate a long time when i did my lambic-esque last fall. Jeff Sparrow in his book Wild Brews suggested lambic get 0.8 oz/gal of that good cheese, but that just seemed pretty high to me (for what that's worth). Articles from BYO and the Milk the Funk wiki suggested 0.2-0.6 oz/gal is more reasonable. I think I used 0.4 oz/gal in my recent attempt. I really love that beer right now, and it's only been a year in an oak barrel. Complex but soft sourness; I can't wait.

 

[goodolarchie]

I just wanted to give a word of warning to folks who might happen upon "Debittered" or "Lambic" hop products -- usually they are cheap or free, but they can't tell you what the source was, only that the alpha has tested under 0.xx%. My experience is, even aged for years, there is a big difference between something like aged Cascade and aged Willamette and aged Fuggle. I've had ones that come out of the bag quite parmesan cheesy, some minty, others just smell like dirt and spent bergamot tea bags.

I asked YVH if they could identify the varietal of their pellets and they said yes, but when I've reached back out to include in subsequent orders they didn't get back to me. Anyway, aged hops are not just a commodity. When I'm brewing 30+ gallons to fill barrels in a weekend I don't want to start a 2-3 year project off with 12oz of some oddball hop contribution, which in my experience absolutely persists through the end product. I've become quite picky and leaned have come to really appreciate aged willamette, cascade, and just about anything noble e.g. hallertauer or saazer type.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Just checking in, I kept a small jar of inoculated wort aside to assess the initial flavors now that primary fermentation has wound down. It was tasty but obviously will need every bit of a year to develop. I can confirm the complex aroma of the aged hops came through and will definitely be a positive contribution in the finished beer. I was worried the boiling would have driven off most of the aged flavors but it did not.

I picked up some Rodenbach classic on Friday and enjoyed it immensely, so that has me thinking about brewing a second batch that will remain unfruited.

 

[Beermeister32]

Brew on!

 

[Jayjay1976]

Brew on!

I totally get your concern now about the Roeselare flavor profile, I brought my 3 remaining cans of Rodenbach classic over to a neighbor's house on friday night. Of the three beer geeks there, two of us loved it but the third guy couldn't stomach it. As they say, one man's dumper is another man's treasure haha!

On a side note....
I picked up a pouch of Lalleman Philly Sour yeast and I'm working on a recipe for a quick fruited sour with some raspberries and a bit of my precious cheesy hops to lend some funky cred. I'll use the aged hops for first boil addition and some fresh Strisselspalt at 15 minutes and at FO for aroma, since I don't intend to age this batch.