Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[Oldsock]

With malt adding anywhere from 200-900ppm each of chloride and sulfate after mashing, why do you believe upping these anions by 25-50ppm is going to make any change whatsoever in the finished product?

Source?

 

[Colbizle]

Source?

Taken from some notes I have:

Originally posted by MartinB in another forum but:

Table 22.2 from Malting and Brewing Science reports the following inorganic components in beer.

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

There are more listed, but I'm tired of typing. The ranges cover a lot of styles and countries of origin, but this does give you an indication of many ions that malt contributes. In the case of Mg, malt supplies about 1 g Mg per kg of grain. Ca is supplied at the rate of about 0.3 g per kg of grain. If all that content makes it into the wort, that equates to about 60 ppm Ca and 150 ppm Mg.

As you can see, malt is a big contributor of necessary ions for yeast growth and health. Adding those ions to water is NOT necessary for the yeast. But we do like to add them for more flavor in our beer!

The other question that is answered here is that chloride is indeed supplied by malt. So the result shown above is a reasonable representation of a beer."

 

[Colbizle]

With malt adding anywhere from 200-900ppm each of chloride and sulfate after mashing, why do you believe upping these anions by 25-50ppm is going to make any change whatsoever in the finished product?

Why do you continue to be a proponent that small adjustments to water minerals doesn't have any effect? This theory couldn't possibly be farther from the truth being that if you ever made a beer with 150 sulfates and compare it to a beer with 200 sulfates you can definetly taste the difference!! Otherwise then we should just forget about adjusting water minerals all together which is not what the pros do. They DO adjust their water! I have a good friend who is a successful pro brewer and guess what? He adjusts his water profile with minerals and his beer are well rated!

 

[Oldsock]

Originally posted by MartinB in another forum but:

Table 22.2 from Malting and Brewing Science reports the following inorganic components in beer.

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Na: 9 to 230 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Fe: 0.02 to 0.84 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm

Those are the amounts of finished beer brewed with non-distilled water though, correct? Hard to know for sure how much is coming from the malt with such a big range, considering the variability of source waters/treatment.

Adding a couple hundred PPM of the various minerals doesn't seem useless given those ranges either.

 

[Colbizle]

Those are the amounts of finished beer brewed with non-distilled water though, correct? Hard to know for sure how much is coming from the malt with such a big range, considering the variability of source waters/treatment.

Adding a couple hundred PPM of the various minerals doesn't seem useless given those ranges either.

Correct, it was in regards to someone who got Heady Topper's water profile tested and it came back with a crazy mineral content profile. I forget what the thread link was.

Adding a couple hundred PPM of the various minerals doesn't seem useless given those ranges either.

I agree.

 

[Kiichi]

With malt adding anywhere from 200-900ppm each of chloride and sulfate after mashing, why do you believe upping these anions by 25-50ppm is going to make any change whatsoever in the finished product?

I was just going off of the numbers I read in this thread. So are you saying mineral additions of sulfate and chloride are not needed / useless? That would seem to contradict a lot of what was discussed here and leave just about only PH.

Doing any of those adjustments already has given me a result and it was an adjustment in the 50-ish range as well. If that is gravely noticable a 25-50 adjustment surely must be too if I am not fallen victim to the placebo effect and missing really big science here, which I would never count out.

 

[Colbizle]

I was just going off of the numbers I read in this thread. So are you saying mineral additions of sulfate and chloride are not needed / useless? That would seem to contradict a lot of what was discussed here and leave just about only PH.

I see what you are saying and it sounds plausible to me (not that I know anything really), but it seems weird as well. Could it be that the initial additions affect the mash and that makes them important even though total numbers are hardly affected?

I fully believe that what MartinB said about malts adding ions to the finished water profile is true.

However, by us adding additional minerals to our water, I think we are effectively just enhancing the ions that are additionally provide by the malts.

So imagine you make some chicken noodle soup, which by it's initial ingredients like chicken broth is already pretty salty. Yet if you toss in a few teaspoons of table salt you are now increasing the salt perception of your soup and enhancing the flavor of the existing ingredients.

Which I believe technically is what we are doing with SO4 and CL.

 

[Callacave]

I fully believe that what MartinB said about malts adding ions to the finished water profile is true.

However, by us adding additional minerals to our water, I think we are effectively just enhancing the ions that are additionally provide by the malts.

So imagine you make some chicken noodle soup, which by it's initial ingredients like chicken broth is already pretty salty. Yet if you toss in a few teaspoons of table salt you are now increasing the salt perception of your soup and enhancing the flavor of the existing ingredients.

Which I believe technically is what we are doing with SO4 and CL.

Exactly, and i like to think that when a commercial brewery uses a certain brand of malt consistently, and even though the mineral content that it adds can vary, I'm sure it's consistent enough to where they get the recipe dialed in with regards to water.

 

[wolfbrosbrewing]

Such a great read guys! Thanks!

 

[Kiichi]

I fully believe that what MartinB said about malts adding ions to the finished water profile is true.

However, by us adding additional minerals to our water, I think we are effectively just enhancing the ions that are additionally provide by the malts.

So imagine you make some chicken noodle soup, which by it's initial ingredients like chicken broth is already pretty salty. Yet if you toss in a few teaspoons of table salt you are now increasing the salt perception of your soup and enhancing the flavor of the existing ingredients.

Which I believe technically is what we are doing with SO4 and CL.

I completly agree with this. That is why I was questioning the sentiment that malt add so much that other mineral additions have to be huge to be noticable to the extend that 50ppm difference are not noticable, which is what g-star said.

 

[g-star]

Why do you continue to be a proponent that small adjustments to water minerals doesn't have any effect? This theory couldn't possibly be farther from the truth being that if you ever made a beer with 150 sulfates and compare it to a beer with 200 sulfates you can definetly taste the difference!!

If you want to believe that increasing the chloride content of your mash water from 125 to 150ppm is going to make a noticeable impact on your finished beer, well knock yourself out. The differences you're tasting are either the power of suggestion, or process/malt crop/pitch rate variables that are beyond your control.

A recent HT clone I did started out with 35ppm Cl-, the finished beer had 296ppm. I added 363ppm sulfate, and ended up with 543ppm in the clone. So it is clear that increasing these ion concentrations 5-10% in the beginning has a very small impact on the final ion profile of the finished beer. I would venture to guess that level of difference is within natural variations from differences in malt crop.

Major salt additions aid in enhancing a desired flavor profile, but I am highly skeptical that the small differences some are chasing here have any impact on the beer whatsoever.

A more fruitful pursuit in my view is to nail mash/kettle/final beer pH, find the correct yeast strain that will produce a soft palate, and closely mimic the (saturation) hopping techniques. A general ionic profile philosophy is fine (i.e. 2:1 chloride/sulfate in the 100-200ppm range), but fiddling with a few dozen ppm chloride or sulfate is clearly a waste of time.

 

[SP_Spiff]

To get this mouthfeel are you fining with geletin or skipping this? Does the fining work against the mouthfeel by stripping out some of the yeast/hops? I know we are not going for clear beer here but wasn't sure if fining would help or hurt the beer mouthfeel/flavor. It would be good to hear what people here are doing.

I just kegged my IPA using the techniques in this thread but it has a little bitterness/harshness that I think is the suspended hops that I expect to clear after a few days of cold conditioning (someone noted this recently). Thanks to all for all of the input on this thread!

 

[Colbizle]

If you want to believe that increasing the chloride content of your mash water from 125 to 150ppm is going to make a noticeable impact on your finished beer, well knock yourself out. The differences you're tasting are either the power of suggestion, or process/malt crop/pitch rate variables that are beyond your control.

A recent HT clone I did started out with 35ppm Cl-, the finished beer had 296ppm. I added 363ppm sulfate, and ended up with 543ppm in the clone. So it is clear that increasing these ion concentrations 5-10% in the beginning has a very small impact on the final ion profile of the finished beer. I would venture to guess that level of difference is within natural variations from differences in malt crop.

Major salt additions aid in enhancing a desired flavor profile, but I am highly skeptical that the small differences some are chasing here have any impact on the beer whatsoever.

A more fruitful pursuit in my view is to nail mash/kettle/final beer pH, find the correct yeast strain that will produce a soft palate, and closely mimic the (saturation) hopping techniques. A general ionic profile philosophy is fine (i.e. 2:1 chloride/sulfate in the 100-200ppm range), but fiddling with a few dozen ppm chloride or sulfate is clearly a waste of time.

fruitful pursuit in my view is to nail mash/kettle/final beer pH

I agree that mash/kettle/final PH is more important for the final quality of the beer.

A general ionic profile philosophy is fine (i.e. 2:1 chloride/sulfate in the 100-200ppm range)

well exactly, I think some of us here are just kind of fine tuning our mineral additions based of a profile we've tweaked into. Will slight adjustments like going from 100-125 make a huge difference? Probably not, but it may help nail a recipe we are pleased with.

 

[Colbizle]

To get this mouthfeel are you fining with geletin or skipping this? Does the fining work against the mouthfeel by stripping out some of the yeast/hops? I know we are not going for clear beer here but wasn't sure if fining would help or hurt the beer mouthfeel/flavor. It would be good to hear what people here are doing.

I just kegged my IPA using the techniques in this thread but it has a little bitterness/harshness that I think is the suspended hops that I expect to clear after a few days of cold conditioning (someone noted this recently). Thanks to all for all of the input on this thread!

I don't fine. Part of this mouthfeel comes from low flocculation of the yeast and hop haze, the other part is PH and water additions

 

[Colbizle]

No adjuncts (my latest IPA) just mineral additions. Check out that pillowy head.

 

[Callacave]

No adjuncts (my latest IPA) just mineral additions. Check out that pillowy head.

Looks great! What's your impression with regards to mouthfeel?

 

[Colbizle]

Looks great! What's your impression with regards to mouthfeel?

I personally believe the mouthfeel is exactly what we are trying to achieve here. The only problem I have with this batch is the hop flavor and aroma is kinda muted so I'm going to try some other things on my upcoming batch and try and really get that juiciness flowing. With that said, I feel like I'm headed in the right direction with my personal experiments.

Mash PH: 5.45
Pre Boil PH: 5.35
Post Boil/Fermenter PH: 5.28
Final: 4.49

 

[bbohanon]

No adjuncts (my latest IPA) just mineral additions. Check out that pillowy head.

Any possible chance you would be willing to share that recipe and/or the water profile you used for that one? That looks awesome!

 

[Kiichi]

Based of those numbers my guess would be that lowering the mash PH, and all following in turn, would get you good bit there. Aiming for 5.2 or 5.3 is then what I would do. Having experimented a bit with adjusting PH in the glass I feel like that definetly has a bit impact on how the fruity notes are percieved.

Sides that I wonder about the mineral additions too. And was the malt bill 100% pale?

 

[AK7007]

A general ionic profile philosophy is fine (i.e. 2:1 chloride/sulfate in the 100-200ppm range), but fiddling with a few dozen ppm chloride or sulfate is clearly a waste of time.

Fiddling with the ionic profile of your mash/wort is a good way to get close to your target pH for each step without having to mess around with titrating acid additions. Knowing your theoretical buffering capacity (including grist composition) can actually be pretty useful.

One thing though that bothers me about all this pH shenanigans is that you therefore need to really know your yeast strain. Each strain throws off different amounts of acid during fermentation, and will have different effects on pH, affected by several factors including pitch rate.

Is it likely then that some breweries are adjusting their post-fermentation pH or just have stumbled upon conditions that work perfectly to achieve their target? Has anybody messed with post-fermentation pH to see how it affects mouthfeel? i.e., take the exact same fermented beer and fiddle with individual glasses to choose the pH that is best?

 

[Colbizle]

Fiddling with the ionic profile of your mash/wort is a good way to get close to your target pH for each step without having to mess around with titrating acid additions. Knowing your theoretical buffering capacity (including grist composition) can actually be pretty useful.

One thing though that bothers me about all this pH shenanigans is that you therefore need to really know your yeast strain. Each strain throws off different amounts of acid during fermentation, and will have different effects on pH, affected by several factors including pitch rate.

Is it likely then that some breweries are adjusting their post-fermentation pH or just have stumbled upon conditions that work perfectly to achieve their target? Has anybody messed with post-fermentation pH to see how it affects mouthfeel? i.e., take the exact same fermented beer and fiddle with individual glasses to choose the pH that is best?

Read what Junkyard had quoted from Gordon Strong. You don't want to be messing with final beer PH once it's all said and done. You need to get everything right pre-fermentation to hit your desired final PH. This includes proper aeration, proper yeast pitching, and cast out PH.

http://discussions.probrewer.com/archive/index.php/t-37666.html

 

[more_betterness]

Fiddling with the ionic profile of your mash/wort is a good way to get close to your target pH for each step without having to mess around with titrating acid additions. Knowing your theoretical buffering capacity (including grist composition) can actually be pretty useful.

One thing though that bothers me about all this pH shenanigans is that you therefore need to really know your yeast strain. Each strain throws off different amounts of acid during fermentation, and will have different effects on pH, affected by several factors including pitch rate.

Is it likely then that some breweries are adjusting their post-fermentation pH or just have stumbled upon conditions that work perfectly to achieve their target? Has anybody messed with post-fermentation pH to see how it affects mouthfeel? i.e., take the exact same fermented beer and fiddle with individual glasses to choose the pH that is best?

I remember reading somewhere that Conan produces a good amount of acid for a sacch strain. Coincidentally the only hoppy beers I made that I was truly happy with prior to focusing more intently on pH were with Conan.

 

[AK7007]

Read what Junkyard had quoted from Gordon Strong. You don't want to be messing with final beer PH once it's all said and done. You need to get everything right pre-fermentation to hit your desired final PH. This includes proper aeration, proper yeast pitching, and cast out PH.

http://discussions.probrewer.com/archive/index.php/t-37666.html

That thread does not anywhere say "You don't want to be messing with final beer PH once it's all said and done." That thread says "It's hard and subjective to do."

Really, the Gordon Strong quote sounds like he doesn't have a good grasp of how buffering solutions work. I'm a biochemist, and all of his revelations about temperature, beer vs RO water buffering effects, etc. are super obvious.

Kai's quote is more from the perspective of a chemist or at least someone who understands buffers. These things are all important influences, and actually bring up an important thing that has not been discussed in this thread: are breweries measuring phosphate concentration in their beers, since presumably phosphate is one of the major buffering ions in wort/beer, and likely a major part of flavor as well? Or do they just know the general buffering capacity and try to get the same capacity each brew?

I'm guessing that good brewers fiddle with the buffering capacity of their wort - titrate a sample of the wort in the kettle prior to boiling and adjust so that fermentation acts whatever way they want, pH change-wise. (Though I also assume that they also need to know the concentration of any buffering ion that the yeast interacts with, so it gets very complicated very fast)

It's not enough to know your pH at each step, you also need to know how much your pH will change in the future with regards to acid production from the yeast strain and pitch rate you have chosen. You only know that by knowing the buffering capacity of your wort.

EDIT: Thinking about it, phosphate isn't really a major buffering ion in the final beer, since the finishing pH is so close to the first equivalence point. Doh.

 

[more_betterness]

Based of those numbers my guess would be that lowering the mash PH, and all following in turn, would get you good bit there. Aiming for 5.2 or 5.3 is then what I would do. Having experimented a bit with adjusting PH in the glass I feel like that definetly has a bit impact on how the fruity notes are percieved.

Sides that I wonder about the mineral additions too. And was the malt bill 100% pale?

+1 to a lower pH. My hoppy beers got much "brighter" and less muddled when I started keeping mash pH at 5.2-5.3.

http://www.hoptomology.com/2013/07/15/the-effect-of-ph-on-hop-character-the-results/

This article is what started me on that path in the first place.

 

[Braufessor]

If you want to believe that increasing the chloride content of your mash water from 125 to 150ppm is going to make a noticeable impact on your finished beer, well knock yourself out. The differences you're tasting are either the power of suggestion, or process/malt crop/pitch rate variables that are beyond your control.

A recent HT clone I did started out with 35ppm Cl-, the finished beer had 296ppm. I added 363ppm sulfate, and ended up with 543ppm in the clone. So it is clear that increasing these ion concentrations 5-10% in the beginning has a very small impact on the final ion profile of the finished beer. I would venture to guess that level of difference is within natural variations from differences in malt crop.

Major salt additions aid in enhancing a desired flavor profile, but I am highly skeptical that the small differences some are chasing here have any impact on the beer whatsoever.

A more fruitful pursuit in my view is to nail mash/kettle/final beer pH, find the correct yeast strain that will produce a soft palate, and closely mimic the (saturation) hopping techniques. A general ionic profile philosophy is fine (i.e. 2:1 chloride/sulfate in the 100-200ppm range), but fiddling with a few dozen ppm chloride or sulfate is clearly a waste of time.

I don't disagree with your general premise - small adjustments to minerals one way or another probably don't make a huge difference. However, talking about the minerals that are present in malt being the dominant player seems equally faulty in my opinion. (and yes, I know they contribute those amounts to the final ward lab readout) You are saying that smaller changes make no difference when adding. Then why add anything? If the huge player in mineral addition is the malt, how come taking out the sulfate and chloride, and brewing with distilled leaves you with a disappointing beer? It still has almost all of the total minerals (since they were in the malt). However, adding nothing at all (even though the total numbers remain high/close) leaves a beer really lacking. So, those additions do make a big difference.

I have talked about 25ppm this way or that...... but, to be honest, it is not the flavor of the chloride I tend to be chasing - it is the pH. I am looking for a general range (like you are also talking about) and I am looking for pH. 50ppm one way or the other of some of these salts, within a general range I am shooting for can make a fairly significant difference for the pH I am looking for.

When I list my ppm's I am doing so in case others want to use them in B'run water to get in the ball park of a recipe that I have shared. To only talk about one aspect (whatever it happens to be) without the context of a lot of other variables is not overly useful for others trying to experiment. Personally, that is why I include the detailed ppm. I don't think there is a big difference in 125ppm vs 150 ppm.....and have never claimed there was - but, I am still going to include that information from one version to the next for my own records or for others chasing the same type of beer and reading this thread.

 

[Braufessor]

No adjuncts (my latest IPA) just mineral additions. Check out that pillowy head.

That is a great looking beer - I just poured a glass of one of my latest attempts that I was really happy with. Citra!

 

[Colbizle]

That is a great looking beer - I just poured a glass of one of my latest attempts that I was really happy with. Citra!

Nice!!

 

[Colbizle]

That thread does not anywhere say "You don't want to be messing with final beer PH once it's all said and done." That thread says "It's hard and subjective to do."

Really, the Gordon Strong quote sounds like he doesn't have a good grasp of how buffering solutions work. I'm a biochemist, and all of his revelations about temperature, beer vs RO water buffering effects, etc. are super obvious.

Kai's quote is more from the perspective of a chemist or at least someone who understands buffers. These things are all important influences, and actually bring up an important thing that has not been discussed in this thread: are breweries measuring phosphate concentration in their beers, since presumably phosphate is one of the major buffering ions in wort/beer, and likely a major part of flavor as well? Or do they just know the general buffering capacity and try to get the same capacity each brew?

I'm guessing that good brewers fiddle with the buffering capacity of their wort - titrate a sample of the wort in the kettle prior to boiling and adjust so that fermentation acts whatever way they want, pH change-wise. (Though I also assume that they also need to know the concentration of any buffering ion that the yeast interacts with, so it gets very complicated very fast)

It's not enough to know your pH at each step, you also need to know how much your pH will change in the future with regards to acid production from the yeast strain and pitch rate you have chosen. You only know that by knowing the buffering capacity of your wort.

EDIT: Thinking about it, phosphate isn't really a major buffering ion in the final beer, since the finishing pH is so close to the first equivalence point. Doh.

You bring up some good points. Other than Gordon strong touching on the subject above, I just never have heard of anyone messing with their final beer ph other than mash, pre-boil, and post-boil.

I suppose though, if you brew a single recipe enough with a specific yeast strain, then you can have an understanding of what all these values should be heading into the fermentor so that you hit that target every time. I suspect that shaune knows what he needs in regards to his yeast for every single recipe to hit his target.

It's kinda like hitting starting and final gravity, surprisingly, even pro brewers go over and under on their SG and FG quite often, in fact, when I was helping my friend on his 15BBL we were like 3 points over our expected SG.

 

[Colbizle]

I don't disagree with your general premise - small adjustments to minerals one way or another probably don't make a huge difference. However, talking about the minerals that are present in malt being the dominant player seems equally faulty in my opinion. (and yes, I know they contribute those amounts to the final ward lab readout) You are saying that smaller changes make no difference when adding. Then why add anything? If the huge player in mineral addition is the malt, how come taking out the sulfate and chloride, and brewing with distilled leaves you with a disappointing beer? It still has almost all of the total minerals (since they were in the malt). However, adding nothing at all (even though the total numbers remain high/close) leaves a beer really lacking. So, those additions do make a big difference.

I have talked about 25ppm this way or that...... but, to be honest, it is not the flavor of the chloride I tend to be chasing - it is the pH. I am looking for a general range (like you are also talking about) and I am looking for pH. 50ppm one way or the other of some of these salts, within a general range I am shooting for can make a fairly significant difference for the pH I am looking for.

When I list my ppm's I am doing so in case others want to use them in B'run water to get in the ball park of a recipe that I have shared. To only talk about one aspect (whatever it happens to be) without the context of a lot of other variables is not overly useful for others trying to experiment. Personally, that is why I include the detailed ppm. I don't think there is a big difference in 125ppm vs 150 ppm.....and have never claimed there was - but, I am still going to include that information from one version to the next for my own records or for others chasing the same type of beer and reading this thread.

Amen.

 

[Braufessor]

Been really busy with a lot of yard work and other things..... but still been brewing and chasing this. I feel I have gotten closer to what I want.....I cheated with adjuncts...but, I don't care because I love the results and the progress in where I am trying to get to.

Recent things that I have been happy with:
*12-15% flaked grains in grain bill
*2:1 Chloride to sulfate. Been going about 130:65ppm for recent beers
*Using some canning salt to get my Na up from 0 to 30 or so
*Using some of my high bicarbonate water (20-40%)
*pH's of my best versions have all been what I would consider high.... with mash/boil kettle (preboil) around 5.45 or even a touch higher. This seems to be pushing the high end of pH to me....but, I like the results better than 5.2-5.3 I don't know why this would be..... but it is.
*Low carbonation.... not flat, but not biting.
*Primary dry hop plus a second, short dry hop in a hopping keg, under CO2 and jump to serving keg after 48 hours. I use this method and it works awesome - http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html

Recipe for the citra beer above in post 345:
(6.5 gallon batch at end of boil - gets me 5 into keg eventually)
Grain:
41% Rahr 2 Row
41% Maris Otter
8% Flaked Oats
4% Flaked Barley
2% Flaked Wheat
3% Crystal 40

Edit - 1.058 OG

Hops:
1 oz. Warrior (60)
3 oz. Citra Flameout
Start to chill and shut off chiller with wort at 160-170
3oz. Citra Hopstand for 30-40 minutes, occasional stirring/swirling
Chill the rest of the way and let settle out for another 20-30 minutes
3oz. Dryhop in primary somewhere around day 5-7 for about 5 days.
Transfer to purged keg with dryhopping set up with 2 more ounces of citra in the keg. Jump it to serving keg 2 days later.

Yeast:
Conan (although, I have brewed some good ones with Denny's too.....still have not tried 1318 in any of these)
Start ferment at 62 and let free rise to 66-68 for the first 4 days. Then move fermenter to where ambient is 68-70 for duration.

Water:
Using in mash and sparge water-
Gypsum .2 gr/gallon
CaCl .6 gr/gallon
Epsom .1 gr/gallon
Canning salt .2 gr/gallon

RO= 60%, Tap = 40% (your water may vary)

Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 135
Bicarbonate = 128

Lactic Acid in mash and sparge = .5ml/gallon

Mash pH = 5.45
pre boil = 5.47
Post boil = 5.30


At any rate, that is my latest (and favorite so far) of the ones I have been brewing. Just put two others on tap and have a couple more fermenting...... all fairly similar though as I have been really pleased with this general process lately.

I know the adjuncts are "cheating" and that is not how Hill Farmstead and some others do it...... but, like I said, I am chasing the final result, and this seems to get me there.

 

[more_betterness]

Duplicate

 

[more_betterness]

Duplicate

 

[more_betterness]

Been really busy with a lot of yard work and other things..... but still been brewing and chasing this. I feel I have gotten closer to what I want.....I cheated with adjuncts...but, I don't care because I love the results and the progress in where I am trying to get to.

Recent things that I have been happy with:
*12-15% flaked grains in grain bill
*2:1 Chloride to sulfate. Been going about 130:65ppm for recent beers
*Using some canning salt to get my Na up from 0 to 30 or so
*Using some of my high bicarbonate water (20-40%)
*pH's of my best versions have all been what I would consider high.... with mash/boil kettle (preboil) around 5.45 or even a touch higher. This seems to be pushing the high end of pH to me....but, I like the results better than 5.2-5.3 I don't know why this would be..... but it is.
*Low carbonation.... not flat, but not biting.
*Primary dry hop plus a second, short dry hop in a hopping keg, under CO2 and jump to serving keg after 48 hours. I use this method and it works awesome - http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html

Recipe for the citra beer above in post 345:
(6.5 gallon batch at end of boil - gets me 5 into keg eventually)
Grain:
41% Rahr 2 Row
41% Maris Otter
8% Flaked Oats
4% Flaked Barley
2% Flaked Wheat
3% Crystal 40

Hops:
1 oz. Warrior (60)
3 oz. Citra Flameout
Start to chill and shut off chiller with wort at 160-170
3oz. Citra Hopstand for 30-40 minutes, occasional stirring/swirling
Chill the rest of the way and let settle out for another 20-30 minutes
3oz. Dryhop in primary somewhere around day 5-7 for about 5 days.
Transfer to purged keg with dryhopping set up with 2 more ounces of citra in the keg. Jump it to serving keg 2 days later.

Yeast:
Conan (although, I have brewed some good ones with Denny's too.....still have not tried 1318 in any of these)
Start ferment at 62 and let free rise to 66-68 for the first 4 days. Then move fermenter to where ambient is 68-70 for duration.

Water:
Using in mash and sparge water-
Gypsum .2 gr/gallon
CaCl .6 gr/gallon
Epsom .1 gr/gallon
Canning salt .2 gr/gallon

RO= 60%, Tap = 40% (your water may vary)

Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 135
Bicarbonate = 128

Lactic Acid in mash and sparge = .5ml/gallon

Mash pH = 5.45
pre boil = 5.47
Post boil = 5.30


At any rate, that is my latest (and favorite so far) of the ones I have been brewing. Just put two others on tap and have a couple more fermenting...... all fairly similar though as I have been really pleased with this general process lately.

I know the adjuncts are "cheating" and that is not how Hill Farmstead and some others do it...... but, like I said, I am chasing the final result, and this seems to get me there.

Our processes are identical, besides me preferring a bit lower pH! Absolutely love Derek's dry hopping setup. Would encourage everyone to look into something similar!

 

[Colbizle]

Based of those numbers my guess would be that lowering the mash PH, and all following in turn, would get you good bit there. Aiming for 5.2 or 5.3 is then what I would do. Having experimented a bit with adjusting PH in the glass I feel like that definetly has a bit impact on how the fruity notes are percieved.

Sides that I wonder about the mineral additions too. And was the malt bill 100% pale?

+1 to a lower pH. My hoppy beers got much "brighter" and less muddled when I started keeping mash pH at 5.2-5.3.

http://www.hoptomology.com/2013/07/15/the-effect-of-ph-on-hop-character-the-results/

This article is what started me on that path in the first place.

I'm going to respectively disagree with both of you (in a nice way of course!)

I was actually targeting a final beer ph of 4.4-4.5

Martin B is a big advocate of keeping the mash ph at 5.4 to brighten hop character. A Kettle PH of 5.3-5.4 tends lend to a better hop utilization and character but the higher end 5.4 or 5.5 in the kettle can contribute to harsher bitterness.

John Kimmich says that he mashes heady topper around 5.4.

Hill Farmstead's Edward is measured with a final beer ph of 4.4.

This link shows highly rated IPAs and their final beer PH.
With 4.4 being the lowest and 4.8 being the highest.

And finally Junkyards post in this thread regarding gordon strong's research and experimentations:
http://discussions.probrewer.com/archive/index.php/t-37666.html

 

[The_Glue]

I brewed a 3 gal batch with these methods, used a high alkalinity bottled water to start with. (hco3 is around 300ppm)
I had to add 8ml of phosporic acid to the full water amount (I treat mash and sparge water as the same) and it got my mash ph to 5.5 and my post boil ph to 5.4 so next time I should add even more acid.
The problem is that I think I can taste the acid even in the final beer.
Should I use low alkalinity water with less acid?

 

[g-star]

You are saying that smaller changes make no difference when adding. Then why add anything? If the huge player in mineral addition is the malt, how come taking out the sulfate and chloride, and brewing with distilled leaves you with a disappointing beer? It still has almost all of the total minerals (since they were in the malt). However, adding nothing at all (even though the total numbers remain high/close) leaves a beer really lacking. So, those additions do make a big difference

You missed the point entirely. I never said to cease adding brewing salts to mash water. The point is that changing a given ion concentration +/- 5-10% will have no discernible impact on the flavor of the beer. Adding salts is an important tool to adjust mash pH.

You'll get a disappointing beer if you brew anything but a very dark stout with distilled water, as a pale malt-based grist is too alkaline and alone doesn't add enough Ca/Mg to lower the residual alkalinity of the mash, and thus you'll be above pH 5.8. So you end up with poor efficiency and a dull beer, as a consequence of your pH values being too high down the line (kettle, fermenter, beer).

When you take out sulfate and chloride, you're also taking out Ca/Mg, assuming you're brewing with traditional salts. It's not the missing Cl-/SO42- that is making the beer "lacking". It is not having enough Ca/Mg to drive the RA low enough to a desirable mash pH. Chloride and sulfate can influence the final flavor profile, but mostly just when heavily weighted towards one or the other.

 

[Braufessor]

You missed the point entirely. I never said to cease adding brewing salts to mash water. The point is that changing a given ion concentration +/- 5-10% will have no discernible impact on the flavor of the beer. Adding salts is an important tool to adjust mash pH.

You'll get a disappointing beer if you brew anything but a very dark stout with distilled water, as a pale malt-based grist is too alkaline and alone doesn't add enough Ca/Mg to lower the residual alkalinity of the mash, and thus you'll be above pH 5.8. So you end up with poor efficiency and a dull beer, as a consequence of your pH values being too high down the line (kettle, fermenter, beer).

When you take out sulfate and chloride, you're also taking out Ca/Mg, assuming you're brewing with traditional salts. It's not the missing Cl-/SO42- that is making the beer "lacking". It is not having enough Ca/Mg to drive the RA low enough to a desirable mash pH.

I know you did not say to quit adding salts. I was saying that the reason for my (can't speak for others) "tinkering" with those numbers was primarily about pH in conjunction with a general flavor profile (2:1 chloride to sulfate in the 120:60 range for what I have been doing.) I just felt like you seemed to assume that the ONLY reason anyone was talking about moving ppm numbers up and down was ONLY for flavor. Just saying that I (and others probably) are listing them in conjunction not only with flavor but pH - like you are talking about.

Actually, the only beers I make where I add almost nothing in the way of salts are pale beers -Bo-Pils and Helles. Just the tiniest amt. of CaCl (.5-1gram total for 5 gallons mash water) and some lactic acid for pH). I find dark beers are not great with RO/Distilled - sharp/off. High Bicarbonate (and minerals that come with that) are what have made great porters and stouts for me as the alkaline water counters the acidity of the roast grains and makes the beer rich, full and round.

I absolutely do agree with your main point - small moves in ppm are about pH, not flavor. No one is going to tell the difference from 125 to 145 Chloride as far as flavor of final beer. But, getting your calcium/ph from 125 CaCl instead of 200 gypsum absolutely makes a difference and 2:1 ratios of 50:25 are not the same (taste wise) as 200:100

 

[bbohanon]

Just curious..What sort of bottled water would be considered high bicarbonate water that could be the mixer with the RO/Distilled water for this 60/40 water split? Would bottled spring water fall into this bucket? I know store bought spring waters toss some unknowns into the batch if you really have no idea whats in the spring water mineral content-wise which is why I moved to using RO/Distilled water and building my own profiles from the ground up..

Forum is also acting odd..some of this post disappeared, reappeared and disappeared again. lol

 

[NateLTB]

Thank you all for all of the information in this thread. I will definitely be using some of your tips and tricks during my next brew day. I've been brewing mostly west coast style IPA's but I attempted a Heady clone last year after getting a couple of cases from a friend. I still haven't tried HF since I'm in the Pacific NW but I'll try my best to replicate it.

Cheers!

 

[Braufessor]

Just curious..What sort of bottled water would be considered high bicarbonate water that could be the mixer with the RO/Distilled water for this 60/40 water split? Would bottled spring water fall into this bucket? I know store bought spring waters toss some unknowns into the batch if you really have no idea whats in the spring water mineral content-wise which is why I moved to using RO/Distilled water and building my own profiles from the ground up..

Forum is also acting odd..some of this post disappeared, reappeared and disappeared again. lol

You would have to look up the mineral content of various bottled water. I use my own tap water (carbon filtered for chlorine) and I have sent that in several times to Ward Lab for analysis. I know there are online sources for mineral content of various bottled waters. (My tap water comes in around 270 Bicarbonate)

**That said - I know that there is no real "source" that says bicarbonate has any value/place in an IPA type beer. I know this, and yet, my personal experience tells me otherwise. I think perhaps it has more to do with being able to achieve my desired mash pH in the 5.4 range without needing to go overboard on salts, acids, etc...... It just seems to mainly help balance the mineral content with the pH I desire.