irishrover32
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Great article I love how he talks about the juicy flavours I much prefere these over the grassy earthy aromas and flavours, he's speaking my language
Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?
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Great article I love how he talks about the juicy flavours I much prefere these over the grassy earthy aromas and flavours, he's speaking my language
He dryhopped 3 days into the fermentation? Did he removed them before kegging?
I target a kettle pH of 5.2 - 5.3, and a final beer pH of about 4.4. That seems to brighten up the hop flavors.
As a side note, just reading the description of WY1318 sure makes it seem like yeast strain plays a big role:
To my mind, the factors to focus on in order of importance would be:
1. Yeast strain
2. Late/whirlpool hopping - glycoside effect
3. pH
4. Water profile
Someone mentioned somewhere that he achieved maximum juice by doing a hopstand below 170F instead of flame-out.
Personally, they are very similar. I actually had a friend try two of the three back to back and the third a week later and he said he wouldn't have a clue which is which because they look and taste so similar. YMMV
I left the first dose of dry hops behind when I racked into the keg (where the second dose awaited, which will be in contact until the keg kicks).
I tried a lower temp hop stand on a wit I posted about last week. Didn't feel like it gave me as much saturated hop flavor as the hotter steep. I don't do mid/late boil hops, so that's really what I'm looking for from the hop stand. I rely on the dry hopping for the nose you can smell from a few feet away!
If i am not mistaken your Galaxy dryhop spent about 9 days in the fermenter. How come the beer didn't got grassy?
Also here is a "secret" in exchange, it's about hop glycosides and stuff:
I tried Lallzyme Beta in beer, (it was a dry hopped beer with a big whirlpool addition) as far as i know they mainly sell it to wine makers to boost aromatic white wines with it. (added during bottling, around 1.5grams per 5gal, i added it while i mixed in the priming sugar)
I bottled half the batch with Beta and half the batch without it.
That enzyme frees up bound glucosidases or something like that.
Long story short, it worked, the batch with the Beta smelled as if i used more dryhops in it than in the untreated batch. This is of course not really professional but i need to use it more to get a more educated opinion on the enzyme.
edit: some proper info about that enzyme:
http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/242/Lallzyme Beta 6-22-10.pdf
Interesting stuff on the enzyme!
I don't think 9 days is enough to extract too much grassy character from the hops without agitation. Most commercial breweries recirculate the wort to increase extraction rate. Heck I've had keg hops sit in beers for a couple months without issue (granted the cold and whole hops help to prevent this anyway).
So a hopstand is positive for mouthfeel not only because of general oil saturation but also due to a reaction with the yeast. Well, that I like to hear since I am a big proponent of hopstands.
Going to bottle my latest experiment in this area tomorrow and will of course let you know how it goes. It´s kind of a big Pale Ale, single hop Hallertau Blanc. Pilsner malt, with a bit of wheat, a touch of Carapils, and a hint of Carawheat. The water chemistry stuff discussed here was applied and a really big hopstand used. Notty as yeast. Smells promising so far and I have hopes for a great mouthfeel too.
Going to bottle my latest experiment in this area tomorrow and will of course let you know how it goes. It´s kind of a big Pale Ale, single hop Hallertau Blanc. Pilsner malt, with a bit of wheat, a touch of Carapils, and a hint of Carawheat. The water chemistry stuff discussed here was applied and a really big hopstand used. Notty as yeast. Smells promising so far and I have hopes for a great mouthfeel too.
More about flavor in the mouth, rather than mouthfeel. Yeast action is one of the reasons kettle hops have such a different character than dry hops. Same for spices, if I want subtle and integrated I add late-boil, if I want to really taste the spices to do a tea to add at bottling.
irishrover32
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so iv got two brews with similiar water profiles and equal ratios of cloride to sulfate (51/57) but i just cant get over how smooth one of them is, its a deschutes fresh squeezed clone and i kid you not its like a nitro beer, the bubbles are tiny and theres no carbonation bite in it at all, wat i do notice is the hop saturation, i dry hoped this in the keg with around 5OZ of hops, after removing them i found the beer was extremely murky and almost soupy, this beer used wlp007 and was very clear going into keg before dry hoping
the other beer had the same chloride/sulfate ratio but it was hopped in the carboy and siphoned to keg with a nylon bag over syphon, this beer used wyeast 1318, the beer was not murky but had a lot of yeast in suspension its been in keg just over a week and is starting to clear but iv noticed its nicely carbonated with bigish bubbles,
the other beer has been in keg about 3-4 weeks now and shows no signs of clearing, im beging to think that the massive dry hopping causing the murky soupy-ness is the reason for the nitro-esque mouthfeel and body, not sure how this fits in with this topic but its interesting to see how the hopping and water can effect carbonation bubbles
pictures of both beers to follow
the other beer had the same chloride/sulfate ratio but it was hopped in the carboy and siphoned to keg with a nylon bag over syphon, this beer used wyeast 1318, the beer was not murky but had a lot of yeast in suspension its been in keg just over a week and is starting to clear but iv noticed its nicely carbonated with bigish bubbles,
the other beer has been in keg about 3-4 weeks now and shows no signs of clearing, im beging to think that the massive dry hopping causing the murky soupy-ness is the reason for the nitro-esque mouthfeel and body, not sure how this fits in with this topic but its interesting to see how the hopping and water can effect carbonation bubbles
pictures of both beers to follow
I can see this. I have a beer on tap right now - HBT Heady topper clone - and I did a double dry hop. 1st half of the dry hops toward end of primary. Second half added according to this process - in a keg: http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html
Jumped it to a serving keg 3-4 days later. Definitely a hazy, fuller mouthfeel than other similar beers brewed at the same time, but only dry hopped in primary. Brewed with Conan yeast. Most of my conan beers end up crisper, and drop clear after a week or 10 days..... not this one. Rich, full, hazy.
So i am thinking about brewing a Tired Hands HopHands clone using some of the water knowledge and stuff estabilished in this thread.
I am thinking about brewing a 12l batch (~3gal) and split it into 4 small fermenters using 4 different yeasts. US05, S04 (the Hop Hands clone yeast), Lallemand Windsor and Mangrove Jacks's Burton ale (the description sounds a bit similar to Conan/London Ale III)
I'd put about 0,8 gal into each fermenter. Do you guys think I should divide the dry yeast weight by around 5?
I like to overpitch US05 to get a clean fermentation but in this case I am probably looking for some esters.
I am thinking about brewing a 12l batch (~3gal) and split it into 4 small fermenters using 4 different yeasts. US05, S04 (the Hop Hands clone yeast), Lallemand Windsor and Mangrove Jacks's Burton ale (the description sounds a bit similar to Conan/London Ale III)
I'd put about 0,8 gal into each fermenter. Do you guys think I should divide the dry yeast weight by around 5?
I like to overpitch US05 to get a clean fermentation but in this case I am probably looking for some esters.
mosaicbrewer
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I have been trying all those yeasts for this mouthfeel goal, and they all floc like mad. Really did not think the burton would but it is the clearest beer I have made recently. Flavor was ok on it
Colbizle
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Interesting. Do you think those guys like Hill farmstead, tired hands, and Tree house are purposely choosing low flocculating yeast for their non american style beers. For example, is Hill farmstead's Belgian beers as hazy as his american beers?
So it is time to get the real 1318? I have to ship it from an other country where they probably have pretty low sales, i hope i will get some living cells too in the sea of dead yeast.
gotbags-10
Well-Known Member
Alright so hoping to brew tomorrow. Hoping to get a little help with a water profile. 1318 yeast and all RO water. My city water is junk. Big thing obviously to focus on will be ph. What about sulfite/ chloride etc....
I have been having good luck with the following profile recently..... I have been using 60% RO water and 40% high bicarbonate tap water.
Ca = 90-100
Mg = 10-15
Na = 25-30
Sulfate = 60-70
Chloride = 125-135
Bicarbonate = 130-140
Projected mash pH = 5.45
I have been treating my mash and sparge water as follows:
CaCl = .6grams/gallon
Gypsum = .2 grams/gallon
Canning salt = .2 grams/gallon
Epsom = .1 gram/gallon
about .55ml/gallon lactic acid
Mash pH was coming in around 5.38 and boil kettle pH around 5.45 (preboil). Final runnings out of sparge around 5.6. Post boil around 5.27.
I have not used 1318 yet..... been brewing almost exclusively with Conan over the last 4+ months. I have done a couple brews with Denny's..... not sold on that yet. I will try 1318 in these beers I have been brewing once I get them dialed in with Conan.
Not saying this is the end point of experimenting.... but, I have been turning out some really nice IPA's and pale ales with this profile recently.
Been going with a few hop combinations:
***Warrior to bitter
Then all other hops at flame out or later -
*all citra
*2:1 Mosaic:Citra
*1:1 or 1:2 Galaxy:Citra
These have been my favorite combos I have done.
*** also, have a couple batches going with the 12-15% flaked oats/barley/wheat. Interested to see how they come out.
I have been wondering how the bittering hops could possibly contribute to the general feel, if at all. I have heard that their oil makeup has an impact on how the bitterness is percieved, but how much impact that has on the general brew I don´t know.
For example, is there a difference in resulting mouthfeel and such between:
Low alpha, low oil
Low alpha, high oil
High alpha, low oil
High alpha, high oil
I am thinking specifically about modern American high alpha compared to my personal favorite, a German hop called Polaris which sits at around 20% alpha and an arse full of oils in general. I like that one as I feel it provides me with a smooth bitterness, so I can be assertive withit without having it cut off flavor too much, thus enhancing the flavor and mouthfeel experience.
Any thoughts on this matter within our discussion gents?
For example, is there a difference in resulting mouthfeel and such between:
Low alpha, low oil
Low alpha, high oil
High alpha, low oil
High alpha, high oil
I am thinking specifically about modern American high alpha compared to my personal favorite, a German hop called Polaris which sits at around 20% alpha and an arse full of oils in general. I like that one as I feel it provides me with a smooth bitterness, so I can be assertive withit without having it cut off flavor too much, thus enhancing the flavor and mouthfeel experience.
Any thoughts on this matter within our discussion gents?
For anyone starting with more neutral water, no reason to add carbonate to a pale beer. I dilute my tap water with RO/distilled as well specifically to dilute carbonate. That way you need less acid to get the pH down to the target range.
Colbizle
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This is interesting. Anyone heard of Tanal A? From the description it sounds like it keeps yeast in suspension permanently..
https://www.wyeastlab.com/com_b_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=12
https://www.wyeastlab.com/com_b_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=12
Man, they have everything. Wonder if any commercial brewers use this
I'd guess their doing mostly a single bittering charge and huge late hop or just whirlpool additions, simple grain bills and dextrose with low mash temp to dry the beer out otherwise a 5% beer at 85ibus would be mouth puckering bitter. Seems from those recipes their doing the same recipe just with diff hops.
They certainly do, as the packaging is geared for commercial volumes, not homebrew volumes. A quick search on pro brewer confirms this.
mosaicbrewer
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yes, I believe they are the result of being very fresh, and trying to keep the yeast in suspension. IMO the saisons are much clearer. I think they would eventually clear if kept in the fridge for a few weeks.
Colbizle
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Interesting, thanks for the insight. I'd assume his American beers would probably clarify after a few weeks in a bottle or growler and would change the mouthfeel.. Maybe that's why he doesn't like distributing?
Agreed with this..Even HTopper will clear up if left in the fridge long enough and that beer looks like orange juice when its consumed fresh. I proved that by leaving a can in there for almost 6 months. Was as clear as a bell by then.
Colbizle
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Nice! haha. Did you notice a change in flavor, mouthfeel, ect?
It was a much different beer than it was fresh, thats for sure..Was quite a bit thinner and more harsh on the front end hop bite wise..I only drank about half of it as when it started to get warmed up, it just got too bitter for me.
I usually dont drink much HTopper (or any DIIPA) due to that amount of hops giving me wicked indigestion if I have more than one at a sitting which is how that can got left in the fridge that long..
I love IPA's and DIIPA's but my GI tract does not.
Colbizle
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Good to know.
Yep, totally feel ya, acid reflux camp for me. But it's kind of one of those "hurt's so good" things haha..
more_betterness
Member
Been following this thread for a bit, so it's about time to contribute!
Brewed a beer inspired by HF Abner as follows:
6.5 Gallons
OG: 1.076
FG: 1.014
SRM: 5
IBU: 108
17 Lbs 2 Row
0.63 Lbs Crystal 10
1 lb Dextrose
Mash @ 150
Mash pH 5.3
Water Profile:
70 ppm S04
150 ppm Cl
75 ppm Ca
25 ppm Mg
50 ppm Na
1.65 oz Warrior @ 90
1.0 oz CTZ @ 5
30 minute hop stand at 170 degrees:
2.00 oz Centennial
2.00 oz Chinook
2.00 oz Simcoet
Fermented w/Wyeast 1318 @ 67
Double Dry hop for 5 days per addition with:
2.00 oz Simcoe
1.00 oz Chinook
0.5 oz Centennial
Per addition
This beer has turned out incredible. Crazy airy and soft mouthfeel with a juicy and resinous hop aroma and flavor that pairs perfect with the fruity yeast esters. Was a bit concerned when pulling samples before conditioning as bitterness was quite high, but at this point can attribute that to excessive yeast (1318 doesn't flocculate at all) and hop matter still in suspension. Brewed a very "West Coast" style IPA in conjunction with this one and the difference is incredible.
Cheers to everyone contributing here!
Brewed a beer inspired by HF Abner as follows:
6.5 Gallons
OG: 1.076
FG: 1.014
SRM: 5
IBU: 108
17 Lbs 2 Row
0.63 Lbs Crystal 10
1 lb Dextrose
Mash @ 150
Mash pH 5.3
Water Profile:
70 ppm S04
150 ppm Cl
75 ppm Ca
25 ppm Mg
50 ppm Na
1.65 oz Warrior @ 90
1.0 oz CTZ @ 5
30 minute hop stand at 170 degrees:
2.00 oz Centennial
2.00 oz Chinook
2.00 oz Simcoet
Fermented w/Wyeast 1318 @ 67
Double Dry hop for 5 days per addition with:
2.00 oz Simcoe
1.00 oz Chinook
0.5 oz Centennial
Per addition
This beer has turned out incredible. Crazy airy and soft mouthfeel with a juicy and resinous hop aroma and flavor that pairs perfect with the fruity yeast esters. Was a bit concerned when pulling samples before conditioning as bitterness was quite high, but at this point can attribute that to excessive yeast (1318 doesn't flocculate at all) and hop matter still in suspension. Brewed a very "West Coast" style IPA in conjunction with this one and the difference is incredible.
Cheers to everyone contributing here!
gotbags-10
Well-Known Member
Hmm might have my next recipe for this week
I'm still curious about the mineral content of their well water. As I'm sitting here drinking a Lost Nation Gose and (I'm sure people will disagree with me, but that's besides the point) it also has a bit of that pillowy mouth-feel, much like HF beers, and arguably other beer in that region.
Suspecting there's something about the water in that region... getting a water report from well water in that area might help point all of us in that general direction of mineral content.
I have family that lives about 30 minutes from HF and they're using well water. On top of that, my family member who lives there is an engineer for public works (specifically water) for the entire Waterbury, VT area.
So where I'm going with this, is that I may be able to get some reports from their well and other stuff in that area assuming it's not already publicly posted somewhere. I'll see if I can find out more and edit this. Also, as wells probably vary drastically it's not necessarily going to be conclusive, but might be some indicator as to that whole part of it.
Will return with more info...
Suspecting there's something about the water in that region... getting a water report from well water in that area might help point all of us in that general direction of mineral content.
I have family that lives about 30 minutes from HF and they're using well water. On top of that, my family member who lives there is an engineer for public works (specifically water) for the entire Waterbury, VT area.
So where I'm going with this, is that I may be able to get some reports from their well and other stuff in that area assuming it's not already publicly posted somewhere. I'll see if I can find out more and edit this. Also, as wells probably vary drastically it's not necessarily going to be conclusive, but might be some indicator as to that whole part of it.
Will return with more info...
more betterness,
That looks great, and your results are spot on with what everybody has been experiencing. Thanks for your input. Less is more, I think, when it comes to water, or at least less sulfate and more chloride! The west coast can have dried out, overly bitter hoppy ales. Give me that soft, full, pillowy mouthfeel with huge hop flavor/aroma and just enough bitterness to back everything up.
I almost gave up on 1318, but now I think I'm going to try it again. I've got some left from a harvest that I might use for my next one. Got a split batch I did over the weekend that's fermenting. It's 100 sulfate and 125 chloride. I used Conan, and I haven't used it in a long time, so it'll be interesting for me.
Cheers!
That looks great, and your results are spot on with what everybody has been experiencing. Thanks for your input. Less is more, I think, when it comes to water, or at least less sulfate and more chloride! The west coast can have dried out, overly bitter hoppy ales. Give me that soft, full, pillowy mouthfeel with huge hop flavor/aroma and just enough bitterness to back everything up.
I almost gave up on 1318, but now I think I'm going to try it again. I've got some left from a harvest that I might use for my next one. Got a split batch I did over the weekend that's fermenting. It's 100 sulfate and 125 chloride. I used Conan, and I haven't used it in a long time, so it'll be interesting for me.
Cheers!
more_betterness
Member
It's been mentioned before in this thread, but I know Shaun is very attentive to pH during all stages of the brewing process as well. My key to making hoppy beers that I was happy with was when I finally began to focus on mash pH rather than solely my water profile and assuming things would just fall in line. Would be interested to see results from experimenting with pH adjustment at points other than the mash in conjunction with the adjusted water profile!
Callacave, I get similar a similar profile from 1318 that I seem to recall in the HF IPAs I've had, but it's been a while. That being said some of the best beers I've made have been with Conan! Let us know how it turns out!
Callacave, I get similar a similar profile from 1318 that I seem to recall in the HF IPAs I've had, but it's been a while. That being said some of the best beers I've made have been with Conan! Let us know how it turns out!
May need to give this a go as well..Did you start with RO or distilled water with this batch and go from there on your water profile?
Alright, the brew I applied a lot of the things here to is ready. It´s a Hallertau Blanc single hop IPA at 7,8%. Since it is the first I tried this way it does not say a lot of specifics, that can only happen when I do another, varied, version of it. I do feel confident in confirming that the water chemistry is important. I went with around 124 chloride and 90 sulfate. Next time I will increase both a bit, probably 150-175 chloride and 120 sulfate as I think I can improve both feel and hop bite. Only hit a mash PH of 5.5, which will go down too next time.
Sides that I believe that carapils or equivalents are really good for what we try to achieve here. They add some feel without much flavor. Recommend adding up to half a pound or so of it.
A big hop stand definetly helps get that Vermont style hop saturation and haze. I did tepid with a load of hops for 70min. 5oz total. Next time I might spread em out through different hopstand ranges though to get more different flavor profiles.
Priming to 2.4 is too high imho. Will do 2.3 max in the future.
A touch of wheat malt, up to 10% I´d say, seems to help too and gives a lovely little flavor note too.
Sides that I believe that carapils or equivalents are really good for what we try to achieve here. They add some feel without much flavor. Recommend adding up to half a pound or so of it.
A big hop stand definetly helps get that Vermont style hop saturation and haze. I did tepid with a load of hops for 70min. 5oz total. Next time I might spread em out through different hopstand ranges though to get more different flavor profiles.
Priming to 2.4 is too high imho. Will do 2.3 max in the future.
A touch of wheat malt, up to 10% I´d say, seems to help too and gives a lovely little flavor note too.
With malt adding anywhere from 200-900ppm each of chloride and sulfate after mashing, why do you believe upping these anions by 25-50ppm is going to make any change whatsoever in the finished product?
more_betterness
Member
100% Distilled! Those ppm are all what I was targeting, forgot to record the actual amounts we ended up with but they were all within 5 ppm of the targets.
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