Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

wps-hbt
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
There is a close connection with TH and HF for sure. Jean from TH does love using a lot of oats and a lot of wheat in his beers though...no secret here, as you can see the tap updates on twitter/instagram. This definitely gives his beers a very unique flavor profile, mouthfeel, etc. Being another world-class brewer helps as well. I am sure water an pH is closely controlled throughout the process as well.

Also, Jean was once using the same or similar yeast blend from a "friend from Vermont." Now, I think TH has their own house culture for most beers, but they definitely use some HF cultures for their barrel aged stuff. This has been discussed in other threads as well.
 
Last edited:
I went through that other thread and some related blog posts and it seemed like that as long as you used 1318 you got that mouthfeel regardless of cl/so4 ratio.

I wonder if there is something similar in dried yeast, mangroove jacks have 3-4 english strains, there is also notty, s04, lallemand windsor ale.
 
The_Glue said:
I went through that other thread and some related blog posts and it seemed like that as long as you used 1318 you got that mouthfeel regardless of cl/so4 ratio.

I wonder if there is something similar in dried yeast, mangroove jacks have 3-4 english strains, there is also notty, s04, lallemand windsor ale.
Click to expand...

Great question. I have tried everything listed above and more as a substitute as I make 15 gallon plus batches and starters for that are time consuming. I had high hopes for windsor, but it just leaves too much of and "english" character. I just did a beer with mangrove jacks burton union yeas and actually think i may be the best candidate so far. It is force carbing right now. I can report back later this week. RE: 1318, I have no idea why they give this yeast a fairly high floc rating. It never comes down! I am very curious how much of that mothfeel is from the yeast as well.
 
I think yeast in suspension is one factor leading to that mouthfeel.

I've been sitting on a keg of a Mosaic DIPA that has started to clear (1318) and its flavor has changed.

The last DIPA I made with San Diego super yeast was so different when young and hazy from yeast (I preferred it better)...once it cleared up it was a good beer but different.
 
Maybe that's why Shaun keeps a tight control over his distribution...to make sure his beers stay fresh. In this case part of being fresh means the yeast are still in suspension...
 
It has been touched on a bit in this thread so far, but I think the importance of flaked something (most likely oats) is being overlooked a little bit. There is just no way you get haze like that, that sticks around without flaked oats, barley, etc. And obviously flaked grains are going to contribute to that soft mouth-feel that everyone is looking for. Just because the website doesn't mention a flaked grain, it doesn't mean that there isn't one. There is no reason why he couldn't just leave that part out.

Here is an APA i made recently. 12% flaked barley, and only whirlfloc for clarification:

FJjTlRr.jpg
 
J343MY said:
It has been touched on a bit in this thread so far, but I think the importance of flaked something (most likely oats) is being overlooked a little bit. There is just no way you get haze like that, that sticks around without flaked oats, barley, etc. And obviously flaked grains are going to contribute to that soft mouth-feel that everyone is looking for. Just because the website doesn't mention a flaked grain, it doesn't mean that there isn't one. There is no reason why he couldn't just leave that part out.

Here is an APA i made recently. 12% flaked barley, and only whirlfloc for clarification:



first off, nice looking beer, but I have no problem achieving that look with pale, caramel and 1318. It actually looks like orange juice. Part of it may be hop haze. I am up to 1# per 5 gallons. It literally never clears and looks like orange juice in a good way. I will post a pic of my upcoming citra pale ale in a week or two
Click to expand...
 
J343MY said:
It has been touched on a bit in this thread so far, but I think the importance of flaked something (most likely oats) is being overlooked a little bit. There is just no way you get haze like that, that sticks around without flaked oats, barley, etc. And obviously flaked grains are going to contribute to that soft mouth-feel that everyone is looking for. Just because the website doesn't mention a flaked grain, it doesn't mean that there isn't one. There is no reason why he couldn't just leave that part out.

Here is an APA i made recently. 12% flaked barley, and only whirlfloc for clarification:

FJjTlRr.jpg
Click to expand...

LOVE hoppy beers that look like orange juice!:mug:
 
J343MY said:
It has been touched on a bit in this thread so far, but I think the importance of flaked something (most likely oats) is being overlooked a little bit. There is just no way you get haze like that, that sticks around without flaked oats, barley, etc. And obviously flaked grains are going to contribute to that soft mouth-feel that everyone is looking for. Just because the website doesn't mention a flaked grain, it doesn't mean that there isn't one. There is no reason why he couldn't just leave that part out.

Here is an APA i made recently. 12% flaked barley, and only whirlfloc for clarification:

FJjTlRr.jpg
Click to expand...

Hey @J343MY, Can I ask what your grain bill was for this beer (%of each grain)? That is one beautiful beer and would like to shoot for that in my next batch. Thanks.
 
Braufessor said:
Hey @J343MY, Can I ask what your grain bill was for this beer (%of each grain)? That is one beautiful beer and would like to shoot for that in my next batch. Thanks.
Click to expand...

85% 2-row
12% flaked barley
3% thomas fawcett amber malt

Beersmith calcualtes the colour to be 5.8 SRM.
 
mosaicbrewer said:
I started low, but its slow to finish. I did my last batch at 74 and think it tastes great?!
Click to expand...
Mosaic, my strong ale was 68 throughout . Diactyle rest at 70. You're right, clean but fruity. I think lower throws more esters.
 
Colbizle said:
Read the thread. There's more involved then just the use of adjuncts. Mash ph and final beer ph, yeast strain, final gravity, and water chemistry.
Click to expand...

I totally hear you and understand that feel comes from more than adjuncts, but who is to say that they're not present at least to some small degree? You would either have to be a phenomenal supertaster or observe the brewing in person to say that they weren't used in at least the 5%ish range.

I think we've come to the conclusion that adjuncts aren't the main source of what we're tracking down, and I understand that, but if you're saying that it's not a part of it might be discounting a significant aspect.

Or you could be 100% correct, I really have no clue :tank:
 
Colbizle said:
Read the thread. There's more involved then just the use of adjuncts. Mash ph and final beer ph, yeast strain, final gravity, and water chemistry.
Click to expand...

So based on nothing. Ok.

I don't think anyone in this thread who has suggested that he may be using something like flaked oats had said that it's just as simple as that. But rather, it's one piece of the puzzle. Just like pH, water treatment, gravity, carbonation level, etc. All important factors.
 
J343MY said:
So based on nothing. Ok.

I don't think anyone in this thread who has suggested that he may be using something like flaked oats had said that it's just as simple as that. But rather, it's one piece of the puzzle. Just like pH, water treatment, gravity, carbonation level, etc. All important factors.
Click to expand...

his website: and actually he does use some adjunct, dextrose.

Edward,13.5ºP, 85 ibus, 5.2% abv. Pale and Caramel malt; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops; House Ale Yeast, and our Well Water.

Abner, 8%, 18.5º P, 170 Theoretical ibus. Ingredients: Pale and Caramel Malt; Dextrose; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops; Ale Yeast, and our Well Water.

Ephraim, 9.6%. Ingredients: Pale Malt; Dextrose; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops, Ale Yeast, and Water.

Notice a trend? IMO his base pale ale/ipas call them session/double/triple are based on very much the same principles with dextrose helping to lighten up and dry out the bigger beers, he also drops caramel on the biggest one. I am pretty sure the grain bill and stats carry over to the single hop singe and doubles, meaning citra and double citra etc.
 
J343MY said:
So based on nothing. Ok.

I don't think anyone in this thread who has suggested that he may be using something like flaked oats had said that it's just as simple as that. But rather, it's one piece of the puzzle. Just like pH, water treatment, gravity, carbonation level, etc. All important factors.
Click to expand...

Of course not! I never claimed that. In my opinion I don't think he's using adjuncts like that. This has all been discussed before earlier in the thread is what I'm trying to say.
 
lowtones84 said:
I totally hear you and understand that feel comes from more than adjuncts, but who is to say that they're not present at least to some small degree? You would either have to be a phenomenal supertaster or observe the brewing in person to say that they weren't used in at least the 5%ish range.

I think we've come to the conclusion that adjuncts aren't the main source of what we're tracking down, and I understand that, but if you're saying that it's not a part of it might be discounting a significant aspect.

Or you could be 100% correct, I really have no clue :tank:
Click to expand...

You're right, we don't know, but that's what experimenting is for and I could be completely wrong too! :)

So far my in own experiments, I'm getting close to that mouthfeel without the use of adjuncts though.
 
mosaicbrewer said:
his website: and actually he does use some adjunct, dextrose.

Edward,13.5ºP, 85 ibus, 5.2% abv. Pale and Caramel malt; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops; House Ale Yeast, and our Well Water.

Abner, 8%, 18.5º P, 170 Theoretical ibus. Ingredients: Pale and Caramel Malt; Dextrose; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops; Ale Yeast, and our Well Water.

Ephraim, 9.6%. Ingredients: Pale Malt; Dextrose; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops, Ale Yeast, and Water.

Notice a trend? IMO his base pale ale/ipas call them session/double/triple are based on very much the same principles with dextrose helping to lighten up and dry out the bigger beers, he also drops caramel on the biggest one. I am pretty sure the grain bill and stats carry over to the single hop singe and doubles, meaning citra and double citra etc.
Click to expand...

I really don't think his website is the be-all and end-all of what goes into his beers. Shaun is notoriously pretty secretive, so it really wouldn't surprise me if something happened to be left out.
 
Colbizle said:
Of course not! I never claimed that. In my opinion I don't think he's using adjuncts like that. This has all been discussed before earlier in the thread is what I'm trying to say.
Click to expand...

Ok, so in your opinion he isn't using adjuncts like that. Thats fine. Your previous reply stated it as a fact, which it isn't. I have read through the whole thread, and there is only speculation.

All I was saying is that based on my experiences, my opinion is that he is probably using flaked oats.
 
J343MY said:
Ok, so in your opinion he isn't using adjuncts like that. Thats fine. Your previous reply stated it as a fact, which it isn't. I have read through the whole thread, and there is only speculation.

All I was saying is that based on my experiences, my opinion is that he is probably using flaked oats.
Click to expand...

Ah... My bad, I did sound like I was stating a fact.. I didn't mean it to come off that way.
 
95-96% 2row and pale ale rahr if possibe
4-5% light crystal (I have been using briess 10)
1318

that late hopping, and a calcium heavy, but low sulfate water profile will get you there. I may share a very close citra single hop pale clone recipe soon. I have drank my clone side by side with his beer, with some serious HF fans, and everyone agreed they were 95% the same, mine had a little less malt flavor, and a stronger nose. I have another batch being dry hopped right now trying to dial it in more.
 
mosaicbrewer said:
95% 2row/pale ale rahr
5% crystal 10
1318

that late hopping, and a calcium heavy, but low sulfate water profile will get you there. I may share a very close citra single hop pale clone recipe soon. I have drank my clone side by side with his beer, with some serious HF fans, and everyone agreed they were 95% the same, mine had a little less malt flavor, and a stronger nose. I have another batch being dry hopped right now trying to dial it in more.
Click to expand...

calcium heavy? or do you mean chloride?
 
Colbizle said:
calcium heavy? or do you mean chloride?
Click to expand...

both in a way, so as he hinted long ago using some calcium chloride and some gypsum will work. Both are part calcium and I really thing the overall level of calcium and minerals is part of the total mouthfeel equation. If you go too far with the chloride, it gets salty IMO
 
mosaicbrewer said:
both in a way, so as he hinted long ago using some calcium chloride and some gypsum will work. Both are part calcium and I really thing the overall level of calcium and minerals is part of the total mouthfeel equation. If you go too far with the chloride, it gets salty IMO
Click to expand...

This makes sense. Solid work! :mug:
 
bierhaus15 said:
Also, sodium ion water softeners are very common in the brewing industry, especially since RO systems are expensive and can be limiting. Some breweries use ion exchange softeners and RO systems, but most just use the standard sodium ion ones. I've been to a few VT breweries that use these, including one of the largest in the state.
Click to expand...

Just noticed this, are some of these guys using ion-exchanged water for brewing commercial beers?
I have one in the house but if I remember well it is might not even recommended to drink from it. It definitely tastes weird on its own. It is just connected to the washing machine and stuff but for example in the kitchen we use the unfiltered tap water. I've been advised a few times on this forum that I shouldn't try it. Maybe I should try brewing a batch with it? Can it remove HCO3/CaCO3 or just Ca and Mg?
 
The_Glue said:
Just noticed this, are some of these guys using ion-exchanged water for brewing commercial beers?
I have one in the house but if I remember well it is might not even recommended to drink from it. It definitely tastes weird on its own. It is just connected to the washing machine and stuff but for example in the kitchen we use the unfiltered tap water. I've been advised a few times on this forum that I shouldn't try it. Maybe I should try brewing a batch with it? Can it remove HCO3/CaCO3 or just Ca and Mg?
Click to expand...

Softend water is terrible for brewing, don't use it. The process removes all Ca/Mg, which are beneficial to yeast health and towards lowering residual alkalinity. They do nothing to change the HCO3-/CO3-- content of the water.

So with untreated soft water you end up with highly alkalinity that is also high in sodium and deficient in the elements needed to lower the alkalinity up reaction with malt phosphates.
 
g-star said:
Softend water is terrible for brewing, don't use it. The process removes all Ca/Mg, which are beneficial to yeast health and towards lowering residual alkalinity. They do nothing to change the HCO3-/CO3-- content of the water.

So with untreated soft water you end up with highly alkalinity that is also high in sodium and deficient in the elements needed to lower the alkalinity up reaction with malt phosphates.
Click to expand...

That sounds bad, i wont try it then.

I think for my next brew i will try a softish bottled water (they dont seem to sell RO water here)

Here are the stats: (in ppm or mg/l)

ca 60
mg 23
na 13.8
k 1.3

hco3 323
cl 4
so4 5

ph: 7,6

I plan to add some CaCl2 and bring the ph to 5.4 with phosporic acid, i treat the full water volume so the same treated water will be used for the mash and sparge. (i dont even sparge btw so it will be just added to the kettle)
 
So, time for an update on my recent brews. Brewed 6 or so APA/IPA's. For the most part all of them were pretty similar in the basics (different Hops):

Grain:
90-92% Base Malt (50/50 split of Rahr 2 Row and Maris Otter)
2-2.5% each of Flaked oats, wheat, honey malt and cara 20
1.055-1.060 OG, 1.012-1.014 FG

Yeast:
Conan for all

Hops:
1oz. Warrior to bitter at 60
Nothing else in the boil
3 oz. at flameout
3 more ounces when wort is chilled a bit to sub 180 - long hop stand
2-3 ounces dry hop at day 5-7 or so in primary for 3-5 days

Keg around day 10-12, carbonate on the low-moderate end.

Water - The main things I did that were different -
*Quit using 100% RO - 50%(ish) high bicarbonate tap water (lactic acid to deal with pH)
*Lower sulfate (60-100)
*Higher CaCl (70-150)
*Mash pH 5.35-5.5

Bottom line - IMO - the best batch (at least compared to what we are shooting for in this thread was a Citra/Mosaic I brewed.

*Grain bill as above
*Hop bill as above ( Warrior bitter, 2 ounces of Mosaic to 1 ounce of Citra in all 3 additions)
Water = 60% RO
Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 137
Bicarbonate = 128

Gypsum = .2grams/gallon
CaCl = .6 grams/gallon
Epsom = .1 gram/gallon
Canning salt = .2 grams/gallon
*Same additions and RO ratio in mash and sparge

This beer had the highest pH's of any of the beers I brewed.
Mash pH = 5.47
Sparge water = 5.95
Final runnings = 5.65
Boil kettle was 5.53 ..... but I added 1ml lactic acid and brought it down a touch to 5.45 or so.
Post Boil = 5.30

My second favorite was probably a citra/galaxy where the chloride was 153. This beer had the second highest pH's across the board. This beer was a "bit" sharper and drier..... was it the Galaxy hops or the higher chloride??

My current takeaways and what I am thinking of trying in next batch(es).
*Chloride in the 135 range seemed better than 100 or 150. 125 chloride to 60 sulfate in next batch I think.
*60% RO water was better than 40-50 and also better than 90-100. Bicarbonate in the 125 range. using .5-.6ml/gallon lactic acid to counter.
*Higher pH seemed to produce a smoother beer..... odd. 5.45-5.5 range. The lower pH (5.3-35) beers seemed "sharper."

Going to do a couple batches of citra/mosaic. One similar to the batch I already did - just minor tweaks. The other based on the tired hands reference earlier in the thread - with 15% (ish) flaked grains. Probably still use the conan yeast..... just because I have about 10 jars of it in my fridge.

I would say these last few IPA's were all really good - at least to my tastes and preferences. Hoping to take it a bit further. Thanks for all the input and trial and error everyone is doing.
 
Braufessor said:
My current takeaways and what I am thinking of trying in next batch(es).
*Chloride in the 135 range seemed better than 100 or 150. 125 chloride to 60 sulfate in next batch I think.
Click to expand...

Great job with the detailed notes and for sharing them, but I think you're misguided if you think that a swing of 15 - 35ppm in the starting chloride content of you brewing water is influencing the final beer.

Malt can add anywhere from 100 - 1000ppm chloride to the beer on its own, and this will vary among recipes, crops, lot numbers, mash technique, etc.

Focusing efforts on examining pre/post-fermentation pH would seem like a more fruitful endeavor.
 
g-star said:
Great job with the detailed notes and for sharing them, but I think you're misguided if you think that a swing of 15 - 35ppm in the starting chloride content of you brewing water is influencing the final beer.

Malt can add anywhere from 100 - 1000ppm chloride to the beer on its own, and this will vary among recipes, crops, lot numbers, mash technique, etc.

Focusing efforts on examining pre/post-fermentation pH would seem like a more fruitful endeavor.
Click to expand...

Yeah - I agree about the few ppm of chloride (or other ions). There was a difference in the perception of the beers - but I think I attribute that more to the Galaxy hops perhaps (which are more assertive than Mosaic) and also, perhaps the slightly higher ph's in the mosaic beer as well.

What types of pH (pre and post fermentation) do you target?
 
mosaicbrewer said:
Edward,13.5ºP, 85 ibus, 5.2% abv. Pale and Caramel malt; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops; House Ale Yeast, and our Well Water.

Abner, 8%, 18.5º P, 170 Theoretical ibus. Ingredients: Pale and Caramel Malt; Dextrose; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops; Ale Yeast, and our Well Water.

Ephraim, 9.6%. Ingredients: Pale Malt; Dextrose; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops, Ale Yeast, and Water.
Click to expand...

How different do these three beers taste? I've not been lucky enough to try any HF beers (or Tree House for that matter) but it blows my mind that the three beers above have the same hops and same base grain yet can have such different flavors. Damn I love this hobby!
 

Similar threads

mongoose33
NorthEast Brewery Tour
Replies
12
Views
3K
mongoose33
mongoose33
R
Cream Ale..brownish?..Specialty grains?
Replies
10
Views
2K
z-bob
z-bob
Gentlemans_Ale
Hill Farmstead's delicate, light, and aromatic IPAs
Replies
2
Views
2K
Callacave
Callacave
N
NE IPA w/Lemon & Graham Crackers - Help!
Replies
4
Views
641
ong
O
R
Creamy/pillow IPA mouthfeel?
Replies
13
Views
9K
socounty
S
wps-hbt2

Latest posts

Back
Top