50 amp panel running (2 )5500 elements

[Esmitee]

I'm now into converting from propane to full on electric brewing. I brewed outside my home in my yard. My equipment was a trek through the house to set up n put everything away. It would take me at least 6 or more hours to do a say a 10 gallon batch. I'm moving indoors where I'll have all of I want and need and won't have to break down all of my equipment. I've been gathering my electric parts to build my own panel. I have basic Electric knowledge, but not enough to spec some of the parts I need. I'm picking up what I need by reading through all the ebuilds online. Lot of great write ups, but none seem to match exactly what I Want and need to use it.

So 1st big question I have is, (and if you choose to follow this thread, there will be many more I'm sure!) With a 50 amp panel, will I be able to heat with (2) 5500 ULDW elements at the SAME TIME , while running (2) chugger pumps.
I want to be able to heat up my strike water in my Boil Kettle AND, at the same time, be heating my sparging water in my HLT.
I'm using a herms coil. After strike water was ready, I'd pump it from the BK to the Mash Tun and dough in. Right after dough ing in I'm ready to recirculate the mash and need the HLT sparge water ready, witch I would have on stand by, but heating both the strike n sparse water in the beginning. I also want on both elements to be able to use the 220v elements as 110v elements with a change of a switch of both. I've been looking for the proper drawings for what I need, just haven't found them yet. If anyone knows where I can get some, please let me know.
Thanks Eric

 

[doug293cz]

I'm now into converting from propane to full on electric brewing. I brewed outside my home in my yard. My equipment was a trek through the house to set up n put everything away. It would take me at least 6 or more hours to do a say a 10 gallon batch. I'm moving indoors where I'll have all of I want and need and won't have to break down all of my equipment. I've been gathering my electric parts to build my own panel. I have basic Electric knowledge, but not enough to spec some of the parts I need. I'm picking up what I need by reading through all the ebuilds online. Lot of great write ups, but none seem to match exactly what I Want and need to use it.

So 1st big question I have is, (and if you choose to follow this thread, there will be many more I'm sure!) With a 50 amp panel, will I be able to heat with (2) 5500 ULDW elements at the SAME TIME , while running (2) chugger pumps.
I want to be able to heat up my strike water in my Boil Kettle AND, at the same time, be heating my sparging water in my HLT.
I'm using a herms coil. After strike water was ready, I'd pump it from the BK to the Mash Tun and dough in. Right after dough ing in I'm ready to recirculate the mash and need the HLT sparge water ready, witch I would have on stand by, but heating both the strike n sparse water in the beginning. I also want on both elements to be able to use the 220v elements as 110v elements with a change of a switch of both. I've been looking for the proper drawings for what I need, just haven't found them yet. If anyone knows where I can get some, please let me know.
Thanks Eric

A 5500W element draws 23A, and a chugger pump draws 1.4, so two of both at the same time will draw 2 * 24.4 = 48.8A. This would not meet code for continuous (longer than 3 hrs) operation, but otherwise is withing your 50A budget.

I can probably put together a design for you. You need to tell me what your preferences for temp controllers, switches, indicator lamps, etc. are. As well as any other functions you want in the panel (timer, power meter, alarms, etc.)

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

A 5500W element draws 23A, and a chugger pump draws 1.4, so two of both at the same time will draw 2 * 24.4 = 48.8A. This would not meet code for continuous (longer than 3 hrs) operation, but otherwise is withing your 50A budget.

I can probably put together a design for you. You need to tell me what your preferences for temp controllers, switches, indicator lamps, etc. are. As well as any other functions you want in the panel (timer, power meter, alarms, etc.)

Brew on

Good point.
All 4 devices would have to be running at 100% power for more than three hours straight for that draw, for the continuous operation code. I dont see how or why anyone would be doing this here.. The herms element would be pulsing the whole time using less power and making less heat and only one pump would be running until mashout unless im missing something?

 

[ReddyK]

Your proposed system seem to be exactly double of what my system is. I have 1 5500W element on both 220V and 120V and then an outlet for a pump. So two of what I have looks like what you need.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580231

 

[doug293cz]

Your proposed system seem to be exactly double of what my system is. I have 1 5500W element on both 220V and 120V and then an outlet for a pump. So two of what I have looks like what you need.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580231

While this is a perfectly workable design, that was well executed, the design is now dated. Auber Instrument's EZBoil DSPR120 and DSPR300 provide both the "PID" function and the SSVR function in a single box. They are much better for new designs.

Brew on

 

[BrewKaiser]

I'm now into converting from propane to full on electric brewing. I brewed outside my home in my yard. My equipment was a trek through the house to set up n put everything away. It would take me at least 6 or more hours to do a say a 10 gallon batch. I'm moving indoors where I'll have all of I want and need and won't have to break down all of my equipment. I've been gathering my electric parts to build my own panel. I have basic Electric knowledge, but not enough to spec some of the parts I need. I'm picking up what I need by reading through all the ebuilds online. Lot of great write ups, but none seem to match exactly what I Want and need to use it.

So 1st big question I have is, (and if you choose to follow this thread, there will be many more I'm sure!) With a 50 amp panel, will I be able to heat with (2) 5500 ULDW elements at the SAME TIME , while running (2) chugger pumps.
I want to be able to heat up my strike water in my Boil Kettle AND, at the same time, be heating my sparging water in my HLT.
I'm using a herms coil. After strike water was ready, I'd pump it from the BK to the Mash Tun and dough in. Right after dough ing in I'm ready to recirculate the mash and need the HLT sparge water ready, witch I would have on stand by, but heating both the strike n sparse water in the beginning. I also want on both elements to be able to use the 220v elements as 110v elements with a change of a switch of both. I've been looking for the proper drawings for what I need, just haven't found them yet. If anyone knows where I can get some, please let me know.
Thanks Eric

What is your intended batch size and what are the capacities of HLT/MLT/BK? Typically the vessels are equally sized. If you heated full volume of your HLT to strike, you should still have excess liquid (approx 1/2) left after moving to your MLT. Recirc your mash liquid via HERMs while any water you top off in your HLT for sparge comes to temp.

Just a thought and suggestion anyway. May be easier, cheaper, and safer than maxing out your breaker. As mentioned before, even with you did use both, they would not both be running 100% duty for 3 hours.

 

[Esmitee]

A 5500W element draws 23A, and a chugger pump draws 1.4, so two of both at the same time will draw 2 * 24.4 = 48.8A. This would not meet code for continuous (longer than 3 hrs) operation, but otherwise is withing your 50A budget.

I can probably put together a design for you. You need to tell me what your preferences for temp controllers, switches, indicator lamps, etc. are. As well as any other functions you want in the panel (timer, power meter, alarms, etc.)

Brew on

Oh Doug, I would very much appreciate and would feel very indebted to you if you could develop a wiring diagram for me. I can follow them, but I do not have the skills to write one up. I do understand that if everything were on at the same time, I;d be maxed out in amps. NOT so GOOD. 1st of all I'll give you some background about my kettles. My HLT, a KEGGLE, has a site glass , a pick up tube to a ball valve, A whirl pool port with a valve on it and a copper 1/2"ID 5/8" OD,50 foot herms coil that has a ball valve on both ,the IN, and OUT. To cover the coil completely with water, I need to use at least 11.5 to 12 gallons.
MLT is either a rectangular cooler or a 20 gallon aluminum pot. Both of those use a Cpvc manifold I made for each, I batch sparge. BK is a KEGGLE with pick up tube to ball valve , site glass and a whirl pool port. I have the 2 chugger pumps set up so I only remove 1 hose at the very end to fill up the fermentors. I would use the set up like this :I would fill the HLT with at least 12 gallons and I would fill the BK with maybe 6 to 9 gallons of strike water depending on the size of the mash.

I would then start heating the HLT up 1st because of the larger amount of water. Then at about 1/2 way to my desired mash temp, I would start the WATER pump to recirculate the HLT water and then start to heat the strike water in the boil kettle. In reality, I really wouldn't even have to recirculate the HLT till I had the strike water in the BK up to temp. I would think I would only have 1 pump running at any time for any length of time during the brew. So do you think I would be maxing out the power that way?

Well for what I can afford right now, I'll be using a MYpin TA4 ssr for the HLT , Laugh if you want... a REX C100 for the MT, just for temp readings, and Prob a MYpin TD4 ssr for the BK. I do want a Volt/Amp meter, an ESTOP, be able to turn on power to the panel without giving power to elements, lights to see when the elements are heating and an alarm for set value of herms output, and alarm or the REX Mash temp. Ill be using RTDs with the xlr connectors. Oh and I guess a switch to turn on and off each element. I think I can figure out what switches and lights to get, but I guess you need to know exactly what they are. Any thing I missed, Im sure you would let me know? And if possible, the ability to switch the elements to run on 120 by turning a switch?????

I will use a Spa Panel with GFCi from 50 amp panel breaker

 

[Esmitee]

Your proposed system seem to be exactly double of what my system is. I have 1 5500W element on both 220V and 120V and then an outlet for a pump. So two of what I have looks like what you need.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=580231

maybe thats where I got the idea from? Im going to look!

 

[augiedoggy]

Oh Doug, I would very much appreciate and would feel very indebted to you if you could develop a wiring diagram for me. I can follow them, but I do not have the skills to write one up. I do understand that if everything were on at the same time, I;d be maxed out in amps. NOT so GOOD. 1st of all I'll give you some background about my kettles. My HLT, a KEGGLE, has a site glass , a pick up tube to a ball valve, A whirl pool port with a valve on it and a copper 1/2"ID 5/8" OD,50 foot herms coil that has a ball valve on both ,the IN, and OUT. To cover the coil completely with water, I need to use at least 11.5 to 12 gallons.
MLT is either a rectangular cooler or a 20 gallon aluminum pot. Both of those use a Cpvc manifold I made for each, I batch sparge. BK is a KEGGLE with pick up tube to ball valve , site glass and a whirl pool port. I have the 2 chugger pumps set up so I only remove 1 hose at the very end to fill up the fermentors. I would use the set up like this :I would fill the HLT with at least 12 gallons and I would fill the BK with maybe 6 to 9 gallons of strike water depending on the size of the mash.

I would then start heating the HLT up 1st because of the larger amount of water. Then at about 1/2 way to my desired mash temp, I would start the WATER pump to recirculate the HLT water and then start to heat the strike water in the boil kettle. In reality, I really wouldn't even have to recirculate the HLT till I had the strike water in the BK up to temp. I would think I would only have 1 pump running at any time for any length of time during the brew. So do you think I would be maxing out the power that way?

Well for what I can afford right now, I'll be using a MYpin TA4 ssr for the HLT , Laugh if you want... a REX C100 for the MT, just for temp readings, and Prob a MYpin TD4 ssr for the BK. I do want a Volt/Amp meter, an ESTOP, be able to turn on power to the panel without giving power to elements, lights to see when the elements are heating and an alarm for set value of herms output, and alarm or the REX Mash temp. Ill be using RTDs with the xlr connectors. Oh and I guess a switch to turn on and off each element. I think I can figure out what switches and lights to get, but I guess you need to know exactly what they are. Any thing I missed, Im sure you would let me know? And if possible, the ability to switch the elements to run on 120 by turning a switch?????

I will use a Spa Panel with GFCi from 50 amp panel breaker

If it helps,
I think most people dont heat the sparge water until after they have drained some for strike water and dont use separate kettles. This is how many get away with only using a 30a line (like myself) but I use a rims that I can run at the same time as my HLT element. With herms I can see why you want to do it the way you do to save a little time but most people just ramp up the herms and HLT full of sparge water to sparge temps during the last 15 mins of the mash recirculation stopping the conversion process with mashout and getting to sparge temps at the same time. (again only requiring one element to be used at a time.) I think most only utilize the 50amp service when doing back to back batches and heating water for the next brew while still boiling the previous..

 

[BrunDog]

You can run the HLT element at 4500W if you want to reduce your concurrent load slightly. That said, 50A is a lot of juice. If this isn't an area of expertise for you, also research build best practices once you get a quality design (you are in good hands with Doug). Poor wiring, crimps, and installation can lead to dangerous fires, etc.

Safety first!

 

[Esmitee]

You can run the HLT element at 4500W if you want to reduce your concurrent load slightly. That said, 50A is a lot of juice. If this isn't an area of expertise for you, also research build best practices once you get a quality design (you are in good hands with Doug). Poor wiring, crimps, and installation can lead to dangerous fires, etc.

Safety first!

BrunDog, thanks, and oh YES, I totally agree with you on safety! I don't want to kill myself with 50 amps. With that said, I could kill myself with a 30 amp panel just as easy too. Like I said before, I'm not an electrician and I do have some electric skills, BUT, I have several friends that are licensed Electricians and will collaborate and check the panel box during the work and before it's ever plugged in. Like many others in this hobby, I love doing all kind of builds, and most everything else myself too. Also, like many others, I can't afford to just buy what I want, but I'm willing to do the work and be able to get something I could not go out and buy.

I definitely agree with you about Doug, I've been reading these forums for about a year about the control panels , and I can clearly see that he is an expert in this area. I'm blown away at his generosity to help me get what I want. If he does, I'm totally sure, he won't just be helping me, he would be helping many others that are wanting to do the same as I want to and just can't find a "Blueprint" to to make it happen.

Back to my idea about the 50amp project, although I know others do it differently with a 30amp set up, and that it works for them, because you can't heat with 2 55k elements at the same time with the 30amps. Let me try and clear up my thought process. I already have the 50amp power available, so why not use it to its full capacity. I fully understand the methods and reasons that people with 30 amp service do it the way they do it.
I want to heat the strike water up in the boil kettle and, at the same time, fill and heat the HLT/HERMS kettle up to completely cover the coil, at least 12 gallons. Now my reason for that is, as soon as I dough in, using the strike water from the BK, I will start to recirculate the mash through the herms coil, that will be at the proper temperature for the mash, without waiting to get up to the proper temperature after draining off the strike water from the HLT and topping up the HLT with replacement water, as the 30amp users do. I would also like to sanitize my counterflow Chiller with boiling water, not wart (I have a little phobia about the crap I seen come out of my counterflow chiller while sanitizing it) as I'm waiting for the boil to end. And have hot water at the ready to clean up as soon as the fermentor is full.

With that all said, I have absolutely no experience with electric Brewing. Perhaps I'm way off in my thinking on the amount of time these 55k elements take to heat up the water? Say if I had like 5 gallons left of 155° water in the HLT after draining off the strike water, and filled it back up to 12 or 13 gallons to cover my coil for the recirculation of the mash,AND, Then have sparge water available, how long would that take? I know I can sanitize the counterflow chiller buy recirculating wort through it near the end of the boil and also reclaim hot water from the cooling process to clean up.
Is it worth my ideas of doing the 50amps, or is it the consensus of all of you that do the 30amp set ups, that the time is negligible, and its not going to take that much more time. Would I save an hour, 1/2 hour, or less?

 

[BrunDog]

You can totally do 50A. I have it and have two 5500W elements, but I only actually pull that power during a cleaning.

I do 5 gallon batches and find I can heat my strike water in less than 10 minutes or so. Heating the boil from sparge temp to boiling only takes maybe another 5-10 minutes. That said, I don't use HERMs or an HLT, so I can't give you sound guidance there.

 

[Esmitee]

You can totally do 50A. I have it and have two 5500W elements, but I only actually pull that power during a cleaning.

I do 5 gallon batches and find I can heat my strike water in less than 10 minutes or so. Heating the boil from sparge temp to boiling only takes maybe another 5-10 minutes. That said, I don't use HERMs or an HLT, so I can't give you sound guidance there.

Well, I figure, if I was going to go Electric, I should go as best I can, use the power, since I have it there, and, I'm totally sure it would have to be faster, no matter what. That's a big selling point for me...time. Plus, I don't think it will cost that much more than doing the 30amp. I hope I'm right about that.
That system you have is totally beyond me, and my scope of skills . It's a piece of electrical ART.

 

[Jkpatton]

I just built a custom controller for herms and 4 elements. 2 5500 in hlt and 2 in bk. Like the others said the potential for disaster is there if your not careful but the same potential and mistakes could be made with a 120v single element setup. If your circuit protection is correct you'll be protected from any spontaneous disaster. I personally use a set of fuses on each element socket protecting them at the lowest max current rating of the wire on that part of the circuit. So for each element I have a set of 30 amp fuses before the socket. I do use breakers for the control wiring and pumps. Slightly off topic but just a little on circuit protection.

 

[Jkpatton]

Also as a side note I had about 1250 into the complete build.

 

[ParadiseBeer]

50amps is the way to go... let me know if you have any questions!!

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=314377#314377

also check out my video... by 12gal brew days are 4 hours now.

https://youtu.be/NdSrNZIf-tw

 

[Esmitee]

I just built a custom controller for herms and 4 elements. 2 5500 in hlt and 2 in bk. Like the others said the potential for disaster is there if your not careful but the same potential and mistakes could be made with a 120v single element setup. If your circuit protection is correct you'll be protected from any spontaneous disaster. I personally use a set of fuses on each element socket protecting them at the lowest max current rating of the wire on that part of the circuit. So for each element I have a set of 30 amp fuses before the socket. I do use breakers for the control wiring and pumps. Slightly off topic but just a little on circuit protection.

JK, I agree with you. You must have a Large system, or, you go 0 to 60, in seconds. Lol . I do like the idea of circuit breakers, makes sence to me. Plus , easy to reset if there happens to be a problem. Oh man, I definitely can not spend that much, at all. I'm on a very tight budget to get this done. I'm so creative sourcing pieces now.
Gotta love ebay.

 

[Crazyeyes]

The one option you might consider is reducing the wattage on one of your elements, there's one Online HB vender that sells a 4500W ULWD ripple element. By reducing one element by 1000w you could save 4 amps @ 240v, this is what I did on my BK, I installed one 5500w element and one 4500w element, which theoretically should only draw 42 amps. I personally don't like the idea of running circuits and breakers over 90% Of rating, it could lead to problematic nuisance tripping, when pushing the upper limits of a breakers ratings.

 

[golfindia]

When I installed my stuff, I decided to split the difference and put in a 40a breaker and 8g NM-B. I use one 5500w element and a 1650w RIMS, 36a total. I don't do back to back batches, but it could be done by moving the RIMS tube to another pot. It will heat strike water to temp during the hour it takes to boil.

 

[Esmitee]

50amps is the way to go... let me know if you have any questions!!

http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=314377#314377

also check out my video... by 12gal brew days are 4 hours now.

https://youtu.be/NdSrNZIf-tw

Nice system! Very well thought out! Oh I have many questions! Contactors, AND / OR Relays. Breakers, AND/ OR Fuzzes? Do I need a transformer, Like for a door bell, to power small leds, and some lighted switches I see require low voltage, AND to possibly power the PIDS or would 110V be a better way for the PIDS?

 

[Esmitee]

The one option you might consider is reducing the wattage on one of your elements, there's one Online HB vender that sells a 4500W ULWD ripple element. By reducing one element by 1000w you could save 4 amps @ 240v, this is what I did on my BK, I installed one 5500w element and one 4500w element, which theoretically should only draw 42 amps. I personally don't like the idea of running circuits and breakers over 90% Of rating, it could lead to problematic nuisance tripping, when pushing the upper limits of a breakers ratings.

Yes Crazy, That is definitely a good idea. I was thinking about that because in reality, when I start to boil, the wort will be around 170 already anyway, sso a 4500w element would work fine.
Another view of MY way to use My proposed 50 amp system would be:
Say if I only needed 5 to 7 gal Strike water , that I plan to heat the strike up in the BK with the proposed 5500w element at the same time as I heat up the 11 or so gallons in the HLT , I could always not use my hlt water pump and save those couple extra AMPS. Or like you suggest, I could heat the HLT with a 5500W and heat the BK with a 4500W BOTH using POWER, and I could use the HLT water pump, and still come in under MAX AMP rating?

 

[doug293cz]

Nice system! Very well thought out! Oh I have many questions! Contactors, AND / OR Relays. Breakers, AND/ OR Fuzzes? Do I need a transformer, Like for a door bell, to power small leds, and some lighted switches I see require low voltage, AND to possibly power the PIDS or would 110V be a better way for the PIDS?

A contactor is just a high current relay, often double or triple pole. Breakers and fuses do the same basic job, but breakers are resettable, fuses are not. Most of the LED's used, both discrete and embedded in switches, are rated for either 120V or 240V, so no transformer needed for those. PIDS can be powered by 120V or 240V.

Brew on

 

[Crazyeyes]

Another thought could be dual 30 amp circuits, one for the HTL and one for BK. This is kinda how my system works I have a 30 amp 240v circuit that feeds the 5500 ULWD element in my HLT along with 120v feeds for my pumps, and I have a 50 amp circuit that feeds the 5500w and a 4500w ULWD elements in my 30 gallon BK, I run two separate control panels to isolate the two circuits from each other, made from standard 12" x 12" PVC weather proof boxes that are strait off the shelf from Home Depot, it's not pretty and stainless but it works. Depending if you have the breaker spaces available 30 amp electrical wiring, outlets and cords could be an easier solution, and if your looking for 30 amp 240v extension cords, Harbor Freight has 25' generator extension cords with twist locks on the ends for a reasonable price, I think around $40 or so.

 

[Crazyeyes]

This is a picture of my HTL control panel with the switching for the pumps, the panel for my BK looks almost identical except the switches in the front are disconects for the two heating elements. The switch on the right hand side of this panel is the disconnect for the HLT elements.

 

[Esmitee]

Another thought could be dual 30 amp circuits, one for the HTL and one for BK. This is kinda how my system works I have a 30 amp 240v circuit that feeds the 5500 ULWD element in my HLT along with 120v feeds for my pumps, and I have a 50 amp circuit that feeds the 5500w and a 4500w ULWD elements in my 30 gallon BK, I run two separate control panels to isolate the two circuits from each other, made from standard 12" x 12" PVC weather proof boxes that are strait off the shelf from Home Depot, it's not pretty and stainless but it works. Depending if you have the breaker spaces available 30 amp electrical wiring, outlets and cords could be an easier solution, and if your looking for 30 amp 240v extension cords, Harbor Freight has 25' generator extension cords with twist locks on the ends for a reasonable price, I think around $40 or so.

Well, I'm going to stay with using just the single 50 amp circuit. The way you have it set up, is probably like firing up a rocket Plus, for someone like me, that on a very tight shoestring budget, I'd be doubling up many of the components and also the cost
I know I will be very pleased with the 50 amp, I probably be ok with the 30 amp as well, But I would be kicking myself in the ass for not being able to use both elements at the same time. I already have 2 ULDW 5500w elements and enclosures for them, so I'll go ahead and use these to start, If I find I'm redlining the amps, I'll switch out the BK element and step down to the 4500W element. BTW, that panel you have, is awesome. I don't see anything bad about it. It looks just as professional as any other one I've seen. One question, Inside, how did you mount up the stuff that's not mounted to the "DOOR/LID". Did you cut a piece of metal or plastic to make an interior back mounting plate?

It looks like you have your supply power hard wired to your panel?
I'm on the fence as to hard wiring my panel, or using a plugged in connection, because I'll be plugging the panel into a power supply spa panel for the gfci protection. I could save a few bucks by hard wiring it too. If I want to move the panel for whatever reason, I could just simply unplug it from the spa panel.

So now, I'm looking at the 50 amp ,2 element DIY kit over at Ebrewsupply so I can gather up the proper parts on ebay and such. I can pretty much copy the parts they supply from their kit. I'll see what is cheaper. I am just not that sure at the exact specs of each of the components I need. So that should direct me in the right direction.
I have chosen the Mypin TA7's for the HLT and MLT pids, I like the LARGE led numbers on them. I already have them and some other parts. I googled Mypin TD7 that I want to use for the BK. I viewed an instruction sheet and seen they offer a TD7, as opposed to the TD4. But I can't seem to find a TD7 on my searches?

 

[Esmitee]

Well, My problems are solved, I just scored a 60amp spa panel off Ebay for a real good price. So I will totally be able to run both 5500w elements simultaneously, and use both of my pumps.

View attachment 1490571130940.jpg

 

[doug293cz]

Well, My problems are solved, I just scored a 60amp spa panel off Ebay for a real good price. So I will totally be able to run both 5500w elements simultaneously, and use both of my pumps.

If you are connecting the spa panel to a 50A circuit in your main breaker panel, you will still be limited to 50A. You can use a spa panel that is rated for more amps than the circuit that supplies power to the spa panel, but you are still current limited by the original circuit, which I thought was 50A in your case.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

Well, I'm going to stay with using just the single 50 amp circuit. The way you have it set up, is probably like firing up a rocket Plus, for someone like me, that on a very tight shoestring budget, I'd be doubling up many of the components and also the cost
I know I will be very pleased with the 50 amp, I probably be ok with the 30 amp as well, But I would be kicking myself in the ass for not being able to use both elements at the same time. I already have 2 ULDW 5500w elements and enclosures for them, so I'll go ahead and use these to start, If I find I'm redlining the amps, I'll switch out the BK element and step down to the 4500W element. BTW, that panel you have, is awesome. I don't see anything bad about it. It looks just as professional as any other one I've seen. One question, Inside, how did you mount up the stuff that's not mounted to the "DOOR/LID". Did you cut a piece of metal or plastic to make an interior back mounting plate?

It looks like you have your supply power hard wired to your panel?
I'm on the fence as to hard wiring my panel, or using a plugged in connection, because I'll be plugging the panel into a power supply spa panel for the gfci protection. I could save a few bucks by hard wiring it too. If I want to move the panel for whatever reason, I could just simply unplug it from the spa panel.

So now, I'm looking at the 50 amp ,2 element DIY kit over at Ebrewsupply so I can gather up the proper parts on ebay and such. I can pretty much copy the parts they supply from their kit. I'll see what is cheaper. I am just not that sure at the exact specs of each of the components I need. So that should direct me in the right direction.
I have chosen the Mypin TA7's for the HLT and MLT pids, I like the LARGE led numbers on them. I already have them and some other parts. I googled Mypin TD7 that I want to use for the BK. I viewed an instruction sheet and seen they offer a TD7, as opposed to the TD4. But I can't seem to find a TD7 on my searches?

I looked for a td7 as well.. I've never found one.. I have a 60amp spa panel (for my spa) I found at the home Depot a while back .. as others mentioned they require 6awg wire. I can boil 13 gallons of wort with a 4500w element at 65% the 5500w element is a bit faster... I still use the 4509w for the hlt since it only costs me about 10- 15 mins.

 

[Esmitee]

If you are connecting the spa panel to a 50A circuit in your main breaker panel, you will still be limited to 50A. You can use a spa panel that is rated for more amps than the circuit that supplies power to the spa panel, but you are still current limited by the original circuit, which I thought was 50A in your case.

Brew on

Hey Doug, thank you, yes your right, I do have a 50amp breaker available, but at least 1 thing I did know, is I couldn't connect to the 50 amp with the 60amp spa panel and have 60amps available. I got this brand new 60amp spa panel for $70.00 delivered to my door. I should have thought of it before to get the 60 amp because, the 50 amp breaker is from a hot tub that is non existent anymore. So I figured I'd use it. So for $10-15 bucks I new I would have to replace the 50, with a 60 amp breaker. Still, a great deal, and I could do what I set forth to do. The hot tub was also like close to 100 feet away, so I'm pretty sure I can use the cable with this 60amp panel. I think it may be 4g, or at least 6g. I will brew no more than 30 feet or less from my house panel. If it's 6g, will that be ok?

 

[Esmitee]

I looked for a td7 as well.. I've never found one.. I have a 60amp spa panel (for my spa) I found at the home Depot a while back .. as others mentioned they require 6awg wire. I can boil 13 gallons of wort with a 4500w element at 65% the 5500w element is a bit faster... I still use the 4509w for the hlt since it only costs me about 10- 15 mins.

The breaker

View attachment 1490583660266.jpg

 

[BrunDog]

6 AWG is good for 50A and 30ft run.

 

[Crazyeyes]

Well, I'm going to stay with using just the single 50 amp circuit. The way you have it set up, is probably like firing up a rocket Plus, for someone like me, that on a very tight shoestring budget, I'd be doubling up many of the components and also the cost
I know I will be very pleased with the 50 amp, I probably be ok with the 30 amp as well, But I would be kicking myself in the ass for not being able to use both elements at the same time. I already have 2 ULDW 5500w elements and enclosures for them, so I'll go ahead and use these to start, If I find I'm redlining the amps, I'll switch out the BK element and step down to the 4500W element. BTW, that panel you have, is awesome. I don't see anything bad about it. It looks just as professional as any other one I've seen. One question, Inside, how did you mount up the stuff that's not mounted to the "DOOR/LID". Did you cut a piece of metal or plastic to make an interior back mounting plate?

It looks like you have your supply power hard wired to your panel?
I'm on the fence as to hard wiring my panel, or using a plugged in connection, because I'll be plugging the panel into a power supply spa panel for the gfci protection. I could save a few bucks by hard wiring it too. If I want to move the panel for whatever reason, I could just simply unplug it from the spa panel.

So now, I'm looking at the 50 amp ,2 element DIY kit over at Ebrewsupply so I can gather up the proper parts on ebay and such. I can pretty much copy the parts they supply from their kit. I'll see what is cheaper. I am just not that sure at the exact specs of each of the components I need. So that should direct me in the right direction.
I have chosen the Mypin TA7's for the HLT and MLT pids, I like the LARGE led numbers on them. I already have them and some other parts. I googled Mypin TD7 that I want to use for the BK. I viewed an instruction sheet and seen they offer a TD7, as opposed to the TD4. But I can't seem to find a TD7 on my searches?

With my HLT panel, the 30 amp power feed connects on the bottom with a twist lock connection, but on my 50 amp BK panel I connected it with a 4 wire, 50 amp appliance pigtail, and used a 50 amp RV extension cord to connect to the 50 amp range outlet mounted underneath my electrical panel.

In both of my panels, I just directly bolted all the interior equipment to the back and sides of the enclosure, you could make a cheap DIY back panel out of cheap poly cutting board, I chose not to because there's not allot of equipment inside the HLT panel besides the SSR that is mounted on the left side of the panel to a external heat sink. On my BK panel the two 3 phase SSR's are though mounted in the back of the enclosure with panel mount heat sinks mounted to the outside and the SSR's protruding inside.

 

[Esmitee]

A 5500W element draws 23A, and a chugger pump draws 1.4, so two of both at the same time will draw 2 * 24.4 = 48.8A. This would not meet code for continuous (longer than 3 hrs) operation, but otherwise is withing your 50A budget.

I can probably put together a design for you. You need to tell me what your preferences for temp controllers, switches, indicator lamps, etc. are. As well as any other functions you want in the panel (timer, power meter, alarms, etc.)

Brew on

Doug, I gathered up a nice 17 1/2" x 22" stainless steel control panel box.
It was an old ANSUL fire suppression box that I got from a restaurant I'm renovation. I also scored a crap ton of 6,8 10,12, 18 and 24 awg wiring in different colors from a 8 year old solar system. The wiring was all in conduit and like brand new. I got the 60 amp spa panel. I have 2 Mypin TA7's (HLT n MLT)and waiting on the TA4,(BK) I also have a Rex C100 that I want to use as a temperature reader for My MLT "out" valve to compare to the temperature from the mash PID (coil return to mash tun) and another REX C100 to monitor the temp while I chill through my counter flow chiller. This one mite be a place holder for a TIMMER ???
I have 2 L6 twist lock receptacles for each elements. I have 4 XLR jacks Male and Female for the RTD probes, sockets for the 2 pumps, 2 wired SS 5500 ULDW elements with good enclosures TC, and I have all the kettles ready to go.

I want to be able to use both elements at the same time,
I want to be able to (using a Illuminated 3 way switch) for both HLT and BK, have a switch position for OFF, 240 and 120, so I will be able to "TONE" it down or fine tune them. Also an ELEMENT ON light If that's a mind boggler or getting a lot more expensive, I can just forget it. I would think you just drop 1 120 leg?
a keyed power on switch with a "POWER ON" light
a E Stop switch
a Blinking buzzer for the alarms
a Illuminated switch for each pid for an alarm ON/OFF and a small low light above each PID to clearly see the alarm is on.
a Illuminated VOLTAGE/AMP combo meter
2 Illuminated switches for the 2 pumps

I'm interested in some of these low profile SS Illuminated switches that just have a ring of led light around them, or have a full lite up button. But I read they have a need I think 12 volts to make the light portation of the switch work, they say they are 600v 10 amp.
I'm putting in a case fan for air circulation too, I figured maybe a wall wart for the low voltage?

Also, I can buy my contactors for cheaper if the are 24 volt coils. Those 5, 10, 15 dollar savings for multiple parts , helps me out to do ALL of this project.

Can you use a 60 amp,3 pole contactor (as my MAIN contactor) with just using 2 of the 3 poles, and still have the 60 amp rating of the contactor???

Doug, I found this fairly straightforward 50 amp wiring diagram of yours, would this be a good base for what I want?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=386823

 

[PatrickLS83]

Looks like you have this solved but just for reference I was running a similar setup in a nano operation. One 50 amp circuit feeding an electric panel with two 5500 watt elements and two pumps. We would fill the HLT up and heat to about 170, dough in, then re-fill the HLT (which drops the temp way down, because cool water is going in), then heat the HLT back to 155, then start the mash recirc. The mash basically rests for 30 minutes during this process while waiting for the HLT to come back to temp. After about 30 min of recirc we step the HLT up to 170 again, then sparge into the BK. During sparge we turn the HLT element off and the BK element on. The only time both elements fire at the same time is when we're double batching. After the sparge for the first batch is done the BK element is working to bring the wort to a boil. At the same time we're topping off the HLT again (cooling it off again) and bringing it to 170 to dough in the second batch. Now we're heating strike water and boiling at the same time. It's not perfect, but you shouldn't need both elements to fire simultaneously for more than 30 min or so. It works. Hope this helps!

 

[doug293cz]

Doug, I gathered up a nice 17 1/2" x 22" stainless steel control panel box.
It was an old ANSUL fire suppression box that I got from a restaurant I'm renovation. I also scored a crap ton of 6,8 10,12, 18 and 24 awg wiring in different colors from a 8 year old solar system. The wiring was all in conduit and like brand new. I got the 60 amp spa panel. I have 2 Mypin TA7's (HLT n MLT)and waiting on the TA4,(BK)
I hope you mean a TD4 for the BK. A TA4 has no manual mode and is unsuitable for a boil controller.
I also have a Rex C100 that I want to use as a temperature reader for My MLT "out" valve to compare to the temperature from the mash PID (coil return to mash tun) and another REX C100 to monitor the temp while I chill through my counter flow chiller. This one mite be a place holder for a TIMMER ???
I have 2 L6 twist lock receptacles for each elements. I have 4 XLR jacks Male and Female for the RTD probes,
I count 5 PID's so you're going to need 5 XLR jacks for the enclosure, and you may want to think about more XLR connectors near the actual temp probes so you don't have wires hanging off things when you are trying to clean them or move them around.,
sockets for the 2 pumps, 2 wired SS 5500 ULDW elements with good enclosures TC, and I have all the kettles ready to go.

I want to be able to use both elements at the same time,
I want to be able to (using a Illuminated 3 way switch) for both HLT and BK, have a switch position for OFF, 240 and 120, so I will be able to "TONE" it down or fine tune them.
This is a waste. The only place voltage switching (which drops the element power by 4X) makes sense in a RIMS tube or direct fired MLT.
Also an ELEMENT ON light If that's a mind boggler or getting a lot more expensive, I can just forget it. I would think you just drop 1 120 leg?
a keyed power on switch with a "POWER ON" light
Power on light is a waste. When all the PID displays light up, you will know the power is on.
a E Stop switch
a Blinking buzzer for the alarms
a Illuminated switch for each pid for an alarm ON/OFF and a small low light above each PID to clearly see the alarm is on.
Can't use a single flasher/buzzer along with external indicator lights to show which PID is sending alarm. Also, illuminated switches for alarm enable/disable is kind of over kill, but can be done
a Illuminated VOLTAGE/AMP combo meter
2 Illuminated switches for the 2 pumps
Do you want pump current to be metered as well as element current?

I'm interested in some of these low profile SS Illuminated switches that just have a ring of led light around them, or have a full lite up button. But I read they have a need I think 12 volts to make the light portation of the switch work, they say they are 600v 10 amp.
Do you have a link for the switches you want to use?
I'm putting in a case fan for air circulation too, I figured maybe a wall wart for the low voltage?

Also, I can buy my contactors for cheaper if the are 24 volt coils. Those 5, 10, 15 dollar savings for multiple parts , helps me out to do ALL of this project.
24V coils complicates the wiring and requires a 24V power supply or transformer (depending on DC or AC coils.)

Can you use a 60 amp,3 pole contactor (as my MAIN contactor) with just using 2 of the 3 poles, and still have the 60 amp rating of the contactor??? Yes

Doug, I found this fairly straightforward 50 amp wiring diagram of yours, would this be a good base for what I want?
If you can figure out how to expand that design to add all your stuff, go for it. If you're looking for me to do a design drawing for you, it's gonna take a while due to design complexity (many of the things you ask for increase complexity), parts I am not familiar with, back and forth to get things the way you want them, and the availability of my time to work on it.

See notes/questions in red above.

Brew on

 

[augiedoggy]

With my HLT panel, the 30 amp power feed connects on the bottom with a twist lock connection, but on my 50 amp BK panel I connected it with a 4 wire, 50 amp appliance pigtail, and used a 50 amp RV extension cord to connect to the 50 amp range outlet mounted underneath my electrical panel.

In both of my panels, I just directly bolted all the interior equipment to the back and sides of the enclosure, you could make a cheap DIY back panel out of cheap poly cutting board, I chose not to because there's not allot of equipment inside the HLT panel besides the SSR that is mounted on the left side of the panel to a external heat sink. On my BK panel the two 3 phase SSR's are though mounted in the back of the enclosure with panel mount heat sinks mounted to the outside and the SSR's protruding inside.

So with 80 amps and two separate control panels I assume your running an actual nano/micro brewery? Otherwise why so much overkill?

 

[augiedoggy]

Doug, I gathered up a nice 17 1/2" x 22" stainless steel control panel box.
It was an old ANSUL fire suppression box that I got from a restaurant I'm renovation. I also scored a crap ton of 6,8 10,12, 18 and 24 awg wiring in different colors from a 8 year old solar system. The wiring was all in conduit and like brand new. I got the 60 amp spa panel. I have 2 Mypin TA7's (HLT n MLT)and waiting on the TA4,(BK) I also have a Rex C100 that I want to use as a temperature reader for My MLT "out" valve to compare to the temperature from the mash PID (coil return to mash tun) and another REX C100 to monitor the temp while I chill through my counter flow chiller. This one mite be a place holder for a TIMMER ???
I have 2 L6 twist lock receptacles for each elements. I have 4 XLR jacks Male and Female for the RTD probes, sockets for the 2 pumps, 2 wired SS 5500 ULDW elements with good enclosures TC, and I have all the kettles ready to go.

I want to be able to use both elements at the same time,
I want to be able to (using a Illuminated 3 way switch) for both HLT and BK, have a switch position for OFF, 240 and 120, so I will be able to "TONE" it down or fine tune them. Also an ELEMENT ON light If that's a mind boggler or getting a lot more expensive, I can just forget it. I would think you just drop 1 120 leg?
a keyed power on switch with a "POWER ON" light
a E Stop switch
a Blinking buzzer for the alarms
a Illuminated switch for each pid for an alarm ON/OFF and a small low light above each PID to clearly see the alarm is on.
a Illuminated VOLTAGE/AMP combo meter
2 Illuminated switches for the 2 pumps

I'm interested in some of these low profile SS Illuminated switches that just have a ring of led light around them, or have a full lite up button. But I read they have a need I think 12 volts to make the light portation of the switch work, they say they are 600v 10 amp.
I'm putting in a case fan for air circulation too, I figured maybe a wall wart for the low voltage?

Also, I can buy my contactors for cheaper if the are 24 volt coils. Those 5, 10, 15 dollar savings for multiple parts , helps me out to do ALL of this project.

Can you use a 60 amp,3 pole contactor (as my MAIN contactor) with just using 2 of the 3 poles, and still have the 60 amp rating of the contactor???

Doug, I found this fairly straightforward 50 amp wiring diagram of yours, would this be a good base for what I want?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=386823

keep in mind that rex pid only outputs Celsius readings... your better off buying a pt100 temp readout something like this..
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DC-...hash=item2820a5f02b:m:mGBA69LhoCI1htqX1sfX7rQ

and as doug said you want the TD4 not ta4 the ta4 is the same as the ta7 only smaller..

Those chrome switches with the ring are pretty poor quality I dont know if Id trust them for 10a...

 

[augiedoggy]

Looks like you have this solved but just for reference I was running a similar setup in a nano operation. One 50 amp circuit feeding an electric panel with two 5500 watt elements and two pumps. We would fill the HLT up and heat to about 170, dough in, then re-fill the HLT (which drops the temp way down, because cool water is going in), then heat the HLT back to 155, then start the mash recirc. The mash basically rests for 30 minutes during this process while waiting for the HLT to come back to temp. After about 30 min of recirc we step the HLT up to 170 again, then sparge into the BK. During sparge we turn the HLT element off and the BK element on. The only time both elements fire at the same time is when we're double batching. After the sparge for the first batch is done the BK element is working to bring the wort to a boil. At the same time we're topping off the HLT again (cooling it off again) and bringing it to 170 to dough in the second batch. Now we're heating strike water and boiling at the same time. It's not perfect, but you shouldn't need both elements to fire simultaneously for more than 30 min or so. It works. Hope this helps!

This is similar to what I do with 30 amps... Only I heat my sparge water to sparging temps with a 4500w element WHILE using my 1800w rims and recirculating with 24v pumps... by the time I turn my 5500w boil kettle on, the sparge water is already heated to temp and the rims doesnt need to be on for anything... It works perfect with no reason to have the BK and HLT on at the same time in my configuration.. lots of ways to skin a cat here..

 

[Esmitee]

Looks like you have this solved but just for reference I was running a similar setup in a nano operation. One 50 amp circuit feeding an electric panel with two 5500 watt elements and two pumps. We would fill the HLT up and heat to about 170, dough in, then re-fill the HLT (which drops the temp way down, because cool water is going in), then heat the HLT back to 155, then start the mash recirc. The mash basically rests for 30 minutes during this process while waiting for the HLT to come back to temp. After about 30 min of recirc we step the HLT up to 170 again, then sparge into the BK. During sparge we turn the HLT element off and the BK element on. The only time both elements fire at the same time is when we're double batching. After the sparge for the first batch is done the BK element is working to bring the wort to a boil. At the same time we're topping off the HLT again (cooling it off again) and bringing it to 170 to dough in the second batch. Now we're heating strike water and boiling at the same time. It's not perfect, but you shouldn't need both elements to fire simultaneously for more than 30 min or so. It works. Hope this helps!

Pat, How I will use the system is, I will heat the strike water in the Boil kettle at the same time I'm heating up the HLT/HERMS for Mash temp water , (and then it becomes Sparge water after a mash out)so , as soon as I dough in, I can start the mash recirculation and get the mash to proper temp right from the start, No water topping off and waiting for the temp to come up, and then Start to recirc.

 

[cod3ck]

This is similar to what I do with 30 amps... Only I heat my sparge water to sparging temps with a 4500w element WHILE using my 1800w rims and recirculating with 24v pumps... by the time I turn my 5500w boil kettle on, the sparge water is already heated to temp and the rims doesnt need to be on for anything... It works perfect with no reason to have the BK and HLT on at the same time in my configuration.. lots of ways to skin a cat here..

Looks like "RIMS" is the keyword here! [emoji6]