5 years into this great hobby and I feel like giving up

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khillian

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Hey HBT,

I have been brewing for 5 years now with 1 year into kegging and partial mashing (3 gallon cooler mash tun). Prior to kegging last year I had a 32 point Wee Heavy and a 38 point Milk Stout in NHC (bottle conditioned). This last year I upgraded to an 8 gallon pot (full boils) and I had made a few great dry hopped pales, evil twin clone (40 points local comp), heady topper clone, they all turned out heavenly. Since October 2013 I have been stuck with many bad batches, I have dumped probably 40 gallons since then down the drain, all kegged/given time. They either have muddled flavors, not sour/phenolic, but I think my hoppy beers taste oxidized (not sherry or wet cardboard) just no flavor and aroma, all that is left is a sweet weird malt taste (these are not malty grain bills/extracts use 6oz west coast hops+). My wee heavy this year (same recipe) racked to secondary on oak for 2 months, acetaldehyde bomb, dumped. My darker beers taste thin and astringent (I have really soft tap in SF (I carbon filter/campden but do adjust salts for the mash via Ez Water Calc).

I ferment with my 6.5 gallon glass carboy or my 6 gallon PET Better Bottle. I make starters on my stir plate and use mostly fresh 001 with Mr. Malty calculator. I use a square cooler with a custom styrofoam lid for the airlock, water+frozen soda bottles, fermometer above the water line but below the beer line, pitch at 62 and watch for first 1-4 days letting it get up to 66, then after let it free rise to SF ambient temps of 68-70F. I ferment usually around 2-3 weeks checking gravity for stability, then keg the beer. If I am dry hopping, I lately do that in the keg via bag/pellets at room temp for 3-5 days in the keg before putting into the keezer for carbonation.

So trying to trouble shoot this issue, I have replaced all plastic items, better bottle, racking cane, tubing, funnel, stir bar, carboy hoods, and airlocks. I boil the oxygen stone, so I have not replaced that (I oxygenate for 1 minute). I have tried to make a few batches with rehydrated US-05, no luck. I recently realized I was not purging my kegs enough, do not remember if the great batches I did last year if I did more purging, but October-post after racking into them I was only doing it once, last 2 batches did it 4X at 15 PSI.

So I started to inspect other items, noticed marks inside my 2 keg gas lines (1 year old, replaced them both and new quick disconnects), noticed beer stone on my kettle and 2 kegs, scrubbed them insanely clean (replaced o rings, boiled posts / dip tube brush). I also replaced my beverage lines and quick disconnects. I took apart my 1 year old 8 gallon kettle valve that I transfer the cooled wort through (was nasty! dark green black hop gunk), completely disassembled, pbw/boil/sanitize, then reassembled.

On the recipe front I have ordered kits from various sources to rule out bad bulk hops that I vac seal. I have done all extract and partial mashes, does not seem to matter.

So one of the last few things I am trying besides tasting the beer throughout the process, is focus to on racking. I have been racking in my kitchen (I used a chair not pictured to put the keg on, I use 4 feet of 3/8 tubing on a 3/8 auto siphon, there is probably about (2 feet) from the bottom of the keg and the bottom of the fermenter. As pictured, even with a hose clamp, about 1/3 of the way into racking a few large bubbles appear in the middle of the tubing and continue to rock/bounce at the same spot in the tubing.

racking.jpg

tubingbubble.jpg


This can’t be good right? My tubing also has a difficult time getting flat into the keg (splashing for first 10-30 seconds trying to adjust moving the siphon picking up yeast), is there a trick to not have your lines return to the shape of the circular spool? Should I be using a longer piece of tubing with the keg on the floor instead of a chair?

I am nearly about to quit home brewing, I have weekly deliveries Pliny the Elder two blocks from my house at the deli for $4.50. Why bother at this point?

Sigh.
/end rant
 
So you clearly have replaced just about everything. But your methodology is identical. Do you know the definition of insanity? Lol. Do yourself a favor and try to mix it up. This time do BIAB, cool the whole pot in a bathtub full of icewater, pour into your glass carboy, shake it without the stopper, and bottle. Leave your cooler, airstone, kegs, lines, taps, etc out of the equation... try it.

Also, you never mentioned sanitation. But I'm going to assume you do that.
You also didn't mention what your pot is made of.
Also, anything that touches cooled wort, I'd disassemble and sanitize every time I brew... (ie your pot valve)

As far as the bubbles, if you have a hose clamp on there correctly, then you are just seeing dead space bubbles that are no big deal and should stop i under a minute. Also, first few seconds of splashing won't kill a 5 gallon batch... Imagine the old days of brewing where they didn't have hoses... just funnels... did their beer taste bad? I'd bed old European beer tasted better than many beers today... so don't fret so much. I can't imagine that being your problem.

Good luck and report back!
 
there is a common point,you have tried all method's and it's still off..is all plastic food grade,and what your using for cleaning and saintation..i use sodium percarbonate(non perfume) and starsan.
 
I would also try using bottled water. I heard a Basic Brewing Radio podcast a while back where a brewery's beer suddenly changed (I don't remember the exact flaw). After going through a similar hair pulling process like yours, they contacted their city water. They found that some invasive species of shell fish had moved in and had changed the water profile.
 
I agree that maybe purging with co2 before racking might help. 10-30 seconds of splashing could oxygenate it enough to throw the flavor off a bit. Those big,thick tubes don't bend very well. I had to use a 5/8" ID tube on my ale pail with the barrel tap on it. Dang tube wanted to stay curled the wrong way & wanted to splash a bit with the higher flow of the 5/8" tubing. Smaller diameter tubing bends more easily. We get our water from Lake Erie,& we've had invasive species come in on freighters,like Zebra mussels & Gobies. I started using local spring water from White House Artisian Springs @ 25c per gallon.
 
Been there, I get you buddy!

Turns out that my problem was ****ty hops!
Yup, got some batches from the same supplyer which must not have been stored properly. I've changed suppliyer and my problem went away!
 
Or the suppliers are selling older crop harvests to the LHBS's we frequent. Some go back to like 2011,2012,etc.
 
Are you in an area with some really experienced brewers who knock it out of the park every time? Homebrew club? If so, see if you can't get a couple consistent brewers to come over and join you for a brew day, kegging day.... Someone else might spot something in what you are doing.

I do like the idea of removing entire parts of the process to narrow things down. Bottling a batch would let you know if it is something with your kegging equipment for example.

Are you totally taking your kegs apart for cleaning? posts, valves, pressure relief in the lid, etc.

Autosiphons and racking canes are notorious problem spots, as are spigots in buckets - are you taking them COMPLETELY apart when you clean and sanitize?

Star San?? Not rinsing afterward?

Checking into water as mentioned is also a good idea. A change in water can make a big difference. Especially if Chlorine/Chloramine is and issue.
 
My tubing also has a difficult time getting flat into the keg (splashing for first 10-30 seconds trying to adjust moving the siphon picking up yeast), is there a trick to not have your lines return to the shape of the circular spool? Should I be using a longer piece of tubing with the keg on the floor instead of a chair?

Try adding a weight to the outflow end of your syphon tube. Something that can be easily removed for sanitizing.
Are you trying to pick up the yeast with your siphon? A load of yeast in your kegs could create some different flavors.
 
So you clearly have replaced just about everything. But your methodology is identical. Do you know the definition of insanity? Lol. Do yourself a favor and try to mix it up. This time do BIAB, cool the whole pot in a bathtub full of icewater, pour into your glass carboy, shake it without the stopper, and bottle. Leave your cooler, airstone, kegs, lines, taps, etc out of the equation... try it.

Will do plan on brewing a zombie dust clone this weekend.

Also, you never mentioned sanitation. But I'm going to assume you do that.
You also didn't mention what your pot is made of.
Also, anything that touches cooled wort, I'd disassemble and sanitize every time I brew... (ie your pot valve)

The kettle is made of SS. In terms of sanitation, all carboys get a PBW soak 1oz/gallon right after they are empty. I then use a carboy brush on my glass but not on the better bottles. I then dry and store until I brew again. On brew day I mix up fresh star san in the carboy and a 1 gallon pot for the transfer tubing/airlock/carboy cap. In terms of the 2 kegs, similar process PBW soak, completely disassemble, run PBW through my lines, empty, repeat with star san and leave about half the keg filled with star san until racking day.

old days of brewing where they didn't have hoses... just funnels... did their beer taste bad? I'd bed old European beer tasted better than many beers today... so don't fret so much. I can't imagine that being your problem.

Good luck and report back!

If only those old brewers tried fresh 6 day old Pliny the Elder every week. Will report back, looked through so many threads that never get solved/updated.
 
I would also try using bottled water. I heard a Basic Brewing Radio podcast a while back where a brewery's beer suddenly changed (I don't remember the exact flaw). After going through a similar hair pulling process like yours, they contacted their city water. They found that some invasive species of shell fish had moved in and had changed the water profile.

Good point, this weekend will pickup 6 gallons of spring water for this brew.
 
Been there, I get you buddy!

Turns out that my problem was ****ty hops!
Yup, got some batches from the same supplyer which must not have been stored properly. I've changed suppliyer and my problem went away!

I would hate to throw out my hop inventory, but this Zombie Dust clone is using brand new 2013 hops that I have not used yet. This is surely a possibility.
 
Starsan being an acid sanitizer,I wouldn't use it in a metal pot or keg for long periods.

Really? How are people storing kegs? I thought stainless steel and properly diluted star san is fine? Is saniclean any different for kegs?
 
Well,the acid can start eating into the surface of the metal. Even SS,when allowed to air dry,gets a thin oxidation coating on it that can't be seen too redilly,as I understand it. Aluminum moreso.
 
Are you in an area with some really experienced brewers who knock it out of the park every time? Homebrew club? If so, see if you can't get a couple consistent brewers to come over and join you for a brew day, kegging day.... Someone else might spot something in what you are doing.

I do like the idea of removing entire parts of the process to narrow things down. Bottling a batch would let you know if it is something with your kegging equipment for example.

Are you totally taking your kegs apart for cleaning? posts, valves, pressure relief in the lid, etc.

Autosiphons and racking canes are notorious problem spots, as are spigots in buckets - are you taking them COMPLETELY apart when you clean and sanitize?

Star San?? Not rinsing afterward?

Checking into water as mentioned is also a good idea. A change in water can make a big difference. Especially if Chlorine/Chloramine is and issue.

Yes I completely disassemble the keg every time. No rinsing of Star San. I have replaced my plastic auto siphon 1x recently, and took apart my metal cane for the carboy and boiled it.

Yea I am around other brewers, most of them do not think the beers are that bad. I do not know if they are being nice, don't know the source/flavors, or just do not care having lower standards. To clarify so many commercial beers disappoint me, 2-3 month old IPAs warm at Bevmo and beat up kegs with dirty tap lines at bars. Even in SF it can be hard to get a clean fresh hoppy beer, there is only a few good bars / Pliny the Elder in bottles.
 
It's starting to sound like maybe your taste buds are so keen,you're picking up on things others can barely taste,if at all. Or confusing one flavor with another descriptor?
 
It's starting to sound like maybe your taste buds are so keen,you're picking up on things others can barely taste,if at all. Or confusing one flavor with another descriptor?

I am unsure, local bars that are close to my house, most of beers taste bad to me. Goto Toronado/Mikkeller Bar or to the breweries themselves the beer tastes great. Getting 3-4 month old Speak Easy IPA from the local bodega tastes completely different then traveling the 3 miles down to their tap room for a fresh pint. Same goes for Lagunitas, near my job there is a place that pours pints of their IPA that sometimes I question if its even Lagunitas IPA. I have drank many many Lagunitas pints over the years and been up to their brewery many times. I have never had a bad Russian River beer wether on tap or in the bottle (I think this is a freshness thing, as Vinny never lets anyone get enough supply to sit on it for months / or store the beer warm for months).

My friends tend to agree with batches pre October that I thought were great (ie. helping me kick kegs in 5 days), and lately they have been saying oh this beer is good, its drinkable (not kicked in 5 days). I am not aiming to make "drinkable" beer that tastes like lots of these mishandled commercial beers.
 
And don't rule out infection if you didn't replace all of your plastics at once. One older part could spread the germs to new pieces. I went through a bad stretch of infections, but finally cleared it out.

I agree, this weekend is a go with all new tubing, and I guess I will not use my oxygen stone and instead use the drill/wine degasser to aerate. I will also just pitch a few vials of fresh 001 instead of making a starter (via Mr Malty).
 
On purging kegs;

I like to fill the keg to the brim with star san, seal it up and push the star san out with co2. this let's know for sure that there is nothing but co2 in there until I pop the lid.

on auto-siphon;

I stopped using mine out of 1) concern because I felt like there were too many nooks and crannies that were difficult to clean and sanitize and 2) I felt like I was oxidizing my beer when i used it. this second one may have been because I wasn't using it correctly as I have learned that if extend the auto-siphon before putting it in the beer and wait for the outside cylinder to fill you won't get so much foaming/bubbling action. but at this point it's out of the loop and I don't see the point of getting a new one.

what you describe does sound like mild oxidation in that the hop character is faded and dull.

although you could check your water chemistry by adding a little gypsum (very little) to a glass and see if that helps the hops pop a bit more.
 
My tubing also has a difficult time getting flat into the keg (splashing for first 10-30 seconds trying to adjust moving the siphon picking up yeast), is there a trick to not have your lines return to the shape of the circular spool? Should I be using a longer piece of tubing with the keg on the floor instead of a chair?

Try adding a weight to the outflow end of your syphon tube. Something that can be easily removed for sanitizing.
Are you trying to pick up the yeast with your siphon? A load of yeast in your kegs could create some different flavors.

I am not trying to pickup yeast, but if I adjust the tubing in the keg to try and get it to stop splashing it moves the auto siphon around in the carboy. I think I might try 6 feet of tubing next time I rack to try and place the tubing into the keg with enough slack to have it not move when raising the auto siphon into the carboy. I should also maybe invest in a long paint tray for sanitizing, as I think the smaller SS pot is helping the tubing in cold star san keep the circular shape.
 
On purging kegs;

I like to fill the keg to the brim with star san, seal it up and push the star san out with co2. this let's know for sure that there is nothing but co2 in there until I pop the lid.

on auto-siphon;

I stopped using mine out of 1) concern because I felt like there were too many nooks and crannies that were difficult to clean and sanitize and 2) I felt like I was oxidizing my beer when i used it. this second one may have been because I wasn't using it correctly as I have learned that if extend the auto-siphon before putting it in the beer and wait for the outside cylinder to fill you won't get so much foaming/bubbling action. but at this point it's out of the loop and I don't see the point of getting a new one.

what you describe does sound like mild oxidation in that the hop character is faded and dull.

although you could check your water chemistry by adding a little gypsum (very little) to a glass and see if that helps the hops pop a bit more.

Really? I have been raising the inner cane inside the liquid, so the proper method is to raise the inner cane before placing into the carboy? Then pump the inner cane?

My recent Shallow Grave porter extract clone kit from MoreBeer came out thin, muddled, no roasty aroma/flavor. My final gravities all appear to be ending 1.010 - 1.012 for most batches with 001/US05.
 
The bubbles that you're seeing in the autosiphon tubing are mostly likely CO2 that was knocked out of solution by the autosiphon. I would not worry about them at all. I've read on here that oxidation flavors can take months to develop.

This sounds very similar to an issue I've been fighting for months. I still haven't solved it but I have tried a bunch of stuff. I think my problem is a lingering infection and the flavor of the beer is hard to describe. There's no hop flavor or aroma, no matter how much hops I use, and there is a sweet/sour flavor that's just disgusting. However, beers that I taste when I go out are fine. I only seem to have the problem at home.
 
Might sound crazy but a few weeks ago my Sculpin Clone, which I cold crashed the primary (stopped doing this recently to rule out suck back via S shape airlocks in the fridge / oxidation), then racked bright after gelatin into a keg onto a dry hop for 5 days at room temp. Tasted amazing in the keg at day 5, I invite some friends over for brew day, pull around 15 pints and the beer completely changed! As if some gnomes replaced the keg and this is now a completely different beer. I still cannot explain this other then oxidation? The top of the beer oxidizing first?
 
The bubbles that you're seeing in the autosiphon tubing are mostly likely CO2 that was knocked out of solution by the autosiphon. I would not worry about them at all. I've read on here that oxidation flavors can take months to develop.

This sounds very similar to an issue I've been fighting for months. I still haven't solved it but I have tried a bunch of stuff. I think my problem is a lingering infection and the flavor of the beer is hard to describe. There's no hop flavor or aroma, no matter how much hops I use, and there is a sweet/sour flavor that's just disgusting. However, beers that I taste when I go out are fine. I only seem to have the problem at home.

Maybe both in my case? With the kettle valve and beer stone gone, and new transfer tubing. This weekend I will use spring water, no starter, different hops, and aerate with my drill wine degasser.

If it is an infection has to be cold side/fermenter as my dark beers like that porter goto keg then right to 37F on c02, no 3-5 days at room temp on dry hops.

I have a heady topper clone that's on c02 now will know more this weekend. I just racked my recreation of a galaxy pale ale I made pre October that was great. Will report back on how these two turned out this weekend. Tasting at kegging time they didn't seem off, but I am horrible at warm/flat beer tasting pre dry hop.
 
I had that happen with bottles of my Cougar Country IPA. 3 weeks at room temp carbing/conditioning. Then 5 days fridge time & they were fantastic,just what I wanted! The next weekend I put some in the fridge,& they were really faded. And I'm using a still pretty new super agata bencg capper. But I didn't lube the inside of the bell as recommended. Maybe the caps aren't quite sealing enough? so you could have a sealing problem on the kegs,like not lubing the seals.
 
Really? I have been raising the inner cane inside the liquid, so the proper method is to raise the inner cane before placing into the carboy? Then pump the inner cane?

My recent Shallow Grave porter extract clone kit from MoreBeer came out thin, muddled, no roasty aroma/flavor. My final gravities all appear to be ending 1.010 - 1.012 for most batches with 001/US05.

this is what I have been told. and it makes sense. I don't think the bubbles are all co2 being knocked out of solution cause the whole is full of air when you put it into the beer.

but also look at water chemistry that can have a big influence on hop character
 
I had that happen with bottles of my Cougar Country IPA. 3 weeks at room temp carbing/conditioning. Then 5 days fridge time & they were fantastic,just what I wanted! The next weekend I put some in the fridge,& they were really faded. And I'm using a still pretty new super agata bencg capper. But I didn't lube the inside of the bell as recommended. Maybe the caps aren't quite sealing enough? so you could have a sealing problem on the kegs,like not lubing the seals.

I do check for leaks, had an issue since October with my gas QDs having pin hole leaks. Lost two 5# tanks, had to lug them back to brewcraft for swaps. I will double check keg lubrication next time I rack a beer.
 
this is what I have been told. and it makes sense. I don't think the bubbles are all co2 being knocked out of solution cause the whole is full of air when you put it into the beer.

but also look at water chemistry that can have a big influence on hop character

Will give this a try next racking, I looked into closed c02 transfer but I would have to give up better bottles and stick to glass. I would also need another tank/regulator and at this point I don't want to make any large purchases until I figure out how to make great beer again.

It would be nice to use buckets or spigotted better bottles but with my cooler / ice bottle method but this wouldn't work without a ferm fridge. I have tried ambient fermenting but temps in my apartment in SF are 70F and that means fermenting beer hits like 75-76 which turned a blond ale with US05 when I moved here 4 years ago into a Belgian/Cidery tasting beer.

Been a long road from Mr Beer horrid 80F ferments in Brooklyn with tiny packets of mystery yeast, to upgrades in equip, lots of knowledge (I read this form every day, listen to basic brewing radio, every brewing network podcast) and a few exceptional batches under my belt. I just want to get out of this rut. I also last year brewed close to 200 gallons, maybe that is somehow connected with lack of cleaning/making more mistakes.
 
I feel your pain. I went through all of this last year. There was some funky sweetish taste that I couldn't describe and it didn't fit the bill for any of the off-flavor descriptions. The only beers that were drinkable were super hoppy ones. I suspect they were masking whatever was going on. I guess you could say the other ones might have been drinkable if you were on a mission. They didn't make you cringe or anything but they didn't taste good by any stretch. I was pulling my hair out for months. I replaced everything plastic, replaced all my keg lines, disassembled every keg replacing all the rubber and cleaning the crap out of everything else. I switched my supplier for ingredients. Nothing was working. I probably dumped 8 batches while all of this was going on. Finally, I decided to try bottled water and now the beer is fantastic. Try at least one batch with treated RO water before you throw in the towel.
 
I feel your pain. I went through all of this last year. There was some funky sweetish taste that I couldn't describe and it didn't fit the bill for any of the off-flavor descriptions. The only beers that were drinkable were super hoppy ones. I suspect they were masking whatever was going on. I guess you could say the other ones might have been drinkable if you were on a mission. They didn't make you cringe or anything but they didn't taste good by any stretch. I was pulling my hair out for months. I replaced everything plastic, replaced all my keg lines, disassembled every keg replacing all the rubber and cleaning the crap out of everything else. I switched my supplier for ingredients. Nothing was working. I probably dumped 8 batches while all of this was going on. Finally, I decided to try bottled water and now the beer is fantastic. Try at least one batch with treated RO water before you throw in the towel.

Will do this weekend for the zombie dust, wonder if the drought in California is effecting things? my last year water report was pretty soft mineral content. I also noticed a few months ago my super was turning off the water, after pockets of air in the pipes and chunky calcium deposits were coming out of the faucet.
 
Something like this is almost definitely water. Its the one thing you haven't tried changing that could easily cause all of the issues you describe.
With the drought going on in California they have to be pumping water from reservoirs that they normally wouldn't be at this time of year...
 
Something like this is almost definitely water. Its the one thing you haven't tried changing that could easily cause all of the issues you describe.
With the drought going on in California they have to be pumping water from reservoirs that they normally wouldn't be at this time of year...

Yea guess I didn't give it enough thought, as some friends are still making good beer a mile away. Who nows if their buildings have RO or other type of filters.
 
That sounds exactly word for word what I was going thru 2 years ago.
I changed, cleaned everything. And I too was thinking I giving it up.

Out of the blue I decided to go to a different homebrew shop for new tubing for kegs and gas. Even though I just changed them.
Immediately everything was back to normal.
Both places have same brand, but something about the one was very wrong.
I asked the first place about it, but got no real answer.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
It was the last thing I thought of too. Malty was exactly how I was trying to describe the character as well. At one point, I had myself convinced it was oxidation. I figured "I have never actually tasted cardboard. I guess this is what it tastes like." I put a clamp on my siphon to make sure no air was getting in where the tube connects. I even bought those lids to make secondaries out of my kegs and got a special little contraption for dry hopping in the keg so that I could purge it every time I added a dry hop addition. Man, it was frustrating. I'm pretty sure a couple tears went down the drain with every batch I had to dump.
 
Perhaps you are getting old and your taste isn't what it used to be? I can't understand how your process which used to produce good beers suddenly just fell flat.
 

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