5% ABV Stout Conditioning?

[andy6026]

This is the second batch of stout that I have brewed. The first one was absolutely horrid. I even tasted it a year after brewing and it's horrible. It had so much of a sharp chocolatte taste that it made you extremely thirsty every time you tried to take a sip.

For my second attempt, I chose a recipe more carefully. I pulled this recipe from someone's database on here and it promised to be good. I brewed it on Valentines Day, February 14th, and bottled it 4 weeks ago. So it's been 11 weeks total since the beer was conceived in my fermenter. It too has a sharp chocolatte taste, albeit less pronounced than the one I brewed a year ago.

I brewed this new one almost perfectly (luck was on my side). I hit my mash temps, held them well, controlled fermentation temps, made a good starter, etc. The only difficulty was that when I took my mash pH, it was about 5.8, so I added a bit more lactic acid directly to the tun and stirred it in.

I tasted one a few days ago... it's undercarbed and has a sharp chocolattey taste that I find very undesirable. It's much closer to drinkable than last year's debacle of a stout, but still not a pleasurable drink. I dumped the pint a quarter way through.

Now, I've heard that stouts take longer to condition, however, is that just for high ABV imperial stouts or does that include a 5% stout such as this one? Why does this beer taste bad... do I just need to be more patient on this one, or is there a problem with the recipe or something else? I remember turning to my brewing assistant when we nailed the mash temp perfectly and held it, "if this doesn't come out excellent then I might give up on trying to brew stouts". Please help.


Here's the recipe:
(It was called Irish Owl Stout in the database of another user here - sorry I didn't record his username to credit him)

Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: WLP007
Yeast Starter: Yes
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.052
Final Gravity: 1.013
IBU: 34
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Color: 37
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 21 days/ 62

Specifics
Boil Volume 6.5 gallons
Batch Size 5 gallons
Yeast 75% AA

Fermentables

7.00 British Two-row Pale
1.00 Roasted Barley
1.00 Flaked Barley
0.50 British Crystal 135-165L


Hops
0.65 Chinook Pellet 60

Mash 150/152 for 60 min usually 1.25/1.3 Qts/lbs

 

[JimRausch]

Stouts seem to be my White Whale too. Can do a great porter, but my stouts, not so good.
Looking at your recipe, that 1lb. of Roast Barley jumps out at me- seems like that's a huge amount for a 5G batch.
Hopefully someone who has good success with stouts will chime in.

 

[yancydc]

That would also be my guess, as the roasted grains can be pretty acrid and give you a burnt coffee taste. You also aren't using a lot of base grain, so the roasted barley could easily overpower everything else. Maybe switch in some chocolate malt for part of the roasted barley next time?

 

[dcp27]

the recipe isnt the issue, thats a pretty standard dry stout recipe, and that should have been plenty of time to mellow. do you have access to a water report? next time you may want to try an alternative method with your dark malts that keeps them out of the mash if you're having issues, i.e. cold steep, add at vorlauf, steep separately, etc

 

[RM-MN]

Put this stout in a dark corner at room temp and forget about it for a few months. My stouts start coming together at about 6 months and continue to improve from there. The one I just finished drinking had over 2 years for the last bottle and I wish I hadn't drunk the rest so early because that last one was so good.

 

[Hopinista]

You could always send them to me, I'll properly dispose of them for you

 

[frazier]

How were you testing the pH? The test strips can be very slow to give an accurate result. Usually the roasted malts will acidify the wort - I've never had to add acid to my stouts.

I agree with the idea of finding out more about the water you are starting out with.

 

[andy6026]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm still hanging on to the year-old stout so this one too will be given plenty more time. I'll only ever dump them if I'm totally desperate for bottles, which so far I've never been.

I think the water is fine. It's the local Toronto tap water which, I've consulted with my LHBS who said that it is generally good water to brew with, with some need usually for a little bit of lactic acid (1-2 ml per 5 gallon batch). However, my limited water knowledge suggests to me that what is good water for ales isn't necessarily also good for stouts.

I'm just going to wait it out. 6 months to two years seems incredibly long to wait to drink something. But depending on how bad it remains it may well take that long.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I agree with JimRausch in his concern about the amount of roast barley. Anything over 6-8 oz in a 5 gal. batch seems over the top to me. But +1 to advice to let it ride for a while. Time seems to fix a lot of problems.

 

[Beernik]

I like 8oz roasted barley and 8oz chocolate malt I'm my stout
And I get a pretty good espresso flavor. I can't imagine what a whole pound of roasted is like.

 

[Yooper]

That a pretty good dry stout recipe, and it should be ready to drink in 4 weeks at the most.

I think the issue here must be water chemistry- I can't imagine what your water is, or how high the bicarbonate level is to get a mash pH of 5.8. I think that is the problem- something in the water and the too-high mash pH is at work.

How about your other brews? Can you make a great lighter colored beer?

How are you checking mash pH with all of your beers?

 

[andy6026]

Here's a link to Toronto's 2013 water report. Admittedly I don't know how to read it. But I believe the info we'd be looking for are on pages 4, 5 and 6.

http://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Toro.../pdf/2/2013 DW System Annual Report_FINAL.pdf

I tested the pH using simple pH strips, about 10 minutes into the mash (I pull out a spoon sized sample of liquid, dip the strip into it and then compare it to the colour-coted chart on the jar).

Also I will note that I used 1/4 teaspoon of the stuff that campden tablets are made from on the water supply - split between the strike and sparge waters.

Here are my brewing notes from this batch:

Brewed this today.

Mash was especially alkaline (around 5.6--5.8) despite having added 1.5 ml of lactic acid. I added another 0.75 ml directly to the tun and it seemed to bring it down to 5.3, although probably unevenly. I added another 0.75 ml to the sparge water and the sparge nailed 5.3 pH.

Boil went fine but I came out with a higher volume of wort than the recipe says -- about 6 gallons instead.

Yeast starter was made 36 hours ahead of time -- about 600 ml.

Pitched at 65 degrees. OG 1.046

 

[andy6026]

To answer Yooper's other question:

In about 25 batches I have made 2-3 outstanding batches (from the low hop range of an IPAs to IIPA). The rest have been somewhere between drinkable and fairly-good. The only styles I've attempted so far are IPA, IIPA, Amber Ale, Stout, Saison... and there's a lager yet to be sampled.

In all honesty I've been somewhat dissapointed with my brewing -- there is often a sharp bite underlying a lot of my brews - -they lack a certain smooth creaminess. I think they're generally getting better, but I've chalked it up perhaps not selecting good recipes and/or honing my skills. But honestly, unless I miss my mash temps by a wide margin, I can't see why my brews aren't better, unless it is something to do with the water supply. The last 5-6 batches I've added the powder used to make campden and lactic acid to my tool kit, and momentarily it seemed to help. Next on my list was a stir-plate so I can be more confident of my pitching rates. Typically I make starters on low-mid gravity batches (500ml--1000ml) using the "agitate as you walk by" method. My sanitation seems good without being overly-paranoid (I use I-O-star), and my fermentation temps are always within the ranges ideal for whatever yeast is used, and usually at the low end of that spectrum.

If there is something especially sinister about my water supply, I'd really love to know.

 

[Yooper]

I glanced through your water report, but didn't see anything useful for brewing. That report seems to be about water safety and not brewing (imagine that! ) but if you have the info on calcium, sodium, chloride, sulfate, bicarbonate, alkalinity, magesium- that we could work with.

You have chlorine in the water, but I assume that is why you pretreat with campden and do so in advance of brewing.

Since youve brewed quite a few times, with medicre results, my gut instinct is to say it's the water. But without an idea of what is actually in there as far as brewing ions, I can't say.

 

[dcp27]

this looks more like the water report u want: http://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Toro...es/pdf/D/DrinkingWaterAnalysis_2013_FINAL.pdf

 

[joyceman]

Im going to agree with those who have said 1lb of roasted barley is a pretty standard amount for a stout. I dont think thats the issue.

Try running out a small test batch without playing with the water chemistry and see what you get.

 

[Queequeg]

Too much roast barley imo.. Try use brown malt (up to 30%) or chocolate malt (up to 10%) and add just a touch of roast barley or BMP say 2-3%. Since you seem to like some residual sweetness try adding 5% crystal 60.

The reason I say it too much as it 10% RB, and its the most bitter of the roasted grains after BMP. Changing the RB to chocolate and adding a some about of BMP will make it much smoother and give you a darker coloured head to boot.

 

[andy6026]

Here's the data pulled from the link some kind person above posted.

calcium : 34.7 mg/L
sodium: 14.5 mg/L
chloride 26.3 mg/L
sulfate 27.4 mg/L
bicarbonate (didn't see it in there)
alkalinity 89.4 mg/L (didn't know it would be measured that way?)
pH average: 7.6
magnesium: 8.6 mg/L

Sorry, but these numbers are greek to me.

 

[Puddlethumper]

I tasted one a few days ago... it's undercarbed and has a sharp chocolattey taste that I find very undesirable. It's much closer to drinkable than last year's debacle of a stout, but still not a pleasurable drink. I dumped the pint a quarter way through.

You absolutely may have a water chemistry issue, but I'm not enough of a chemist to address that. I did note that what we are talking about here is your perception of good tasting stout. Please understand that I mean nothing bad in saying that. What you like is what you like and that is what makes living in a free country a good thing, But we're trying to figure out why the beer doesn't taste good to you. Perhaps you prefer stouts with less of some malts in them. (I know I do.) Perhaps if you sent us all a 12 oz. sample we could find a point of agreement ?

 

[Queequeg]

Here's the data pulled from the link some kind person above posted.

calcium : 34.7 mg/L
sodium: 14.5 mg/L
chloride 26.3 mg/L
sulfate 27.4 mg/L
bicarbonate (didn't see it in there)
alkalinity 89.4 mg/L (didn't know it would be measured that way?)
pH average: 7.6
magnesium: 8.6 mg/L

Sorry, but these numbers are greek to me.

There is nothing in your water that would negatively affect the flavour, those mineral concentrations are very conservative and the ratio or sulfate to chloride is roughly 1:1 which is good for a malty beer like a stout.

However the alkalinity is quite low, which is not ideal for mashing a dark malt bill as theoretically the pH could drop too low. This could have a negative affect on conversion and extraction.

So the question is do you monitor and adjust your mash pH? If you do, given the information you have given about your water I personally can't see that being a problem. Unless you making mineral additions of some kind.

BTW your average bicarbonate is 122, its listed as hardness CaCO3 on the report.

 

[andy6026]

Yes, I monitor and adjust that mash pH. I use the simple test strips and lactic acid to adjust.

It's odd though that in this case the pH was actually too high (5.6--5.8 even after 1.5 ml of lactic acid across the water supply), so I added more acid to bring it down and hit 5.3.

 

[andy6026]

You absolutely may have a water chemistry issue, but I'm not enough of a chemist to address that. I did note that what we are talking about here is your perception of good tasting stout. Please understand that I mean nothing bad in saying that. What you like is what you like and that is what makes living in a free country a good thing, But we're trying to figure out why the beer doesn't taste good to you. Perhaps you prefer stouts with less of some malts in them. (I know I do.) Perhaps if you sent us all a 12 oz. sample we could find a point of agreement ?

I agree entirely. And I wish I could indeed send beer out all over the place for criticism in the spirit of self improvement (hell, or even just to help everyone get pissed).

What I tend to dislike in some stouts is the sometimes overbearing heavy chocolatte taste - almost like burnt coffee. Put it this way, if I were to choose a chocolate bar, it would be a creamy light milk chocolate like dairy milk over a rich heavy dark chocolate high in cocoa. Stouts seem to be the same for me - I like the smooth creaminess and lightish body of Guiness or some of the lighter oatmeal stouts over the sharper taste that the one I brewed brings. Does that make sense?

Any recommendations as to how to adjust stout recipes to bring out the characteristics I like over the ones I don't would appreciated.

 

[Queequeg]

see my post earlier in this thread.

 

[andy6026]

Great, thanks! I'm not yet far enough in to recognize exactly which grains impart which flavors, especially for stouts (this was only my second stout) so I'll take your recommendation next time. Thanks!