20 min boil hops vs hopstand

[Aggie10]

So, my research indicates hop utilization at 15-20 minutes is 50% of 60 min boil. So one can double hop amount and get similar bittering.

And that all hops in for 20 min boil vs all hops in hop stand held at, lets say, 190F results in very similar beer.

So, what I'm wondering is trying all hops in for 10 min boil, flameout, then 10 min "hop stand" as wort cools naturally. Or half of hops in for 10 min boil and add other half at flameout for 10 min "hop stand" as wort cools naturally.

Let's not get into a brulosophy debate or style debate, I'm interested in theoretical effect on bitterness amount and harshness and pros/cons on flavor and aroma.

 

[Miraculix]

So, my research indicates hop utilization at 15-20 minutes is 50% of 60 min boil. So one can double hop amount and get similar bittering.

And that all hops in for 20 min boil vs all hops in hop stand held at, lets say, 190F results in very similar beer.

So, what I'm wondering is trying all hops in for 10 min boil, flameout, then 10 min "hop stand" as wort cools naturally. Or half of hops in for 10 min boil and add other half at flameout for 10 min "hop stand" as wort cools naturally.

Let's not get into a brulosophy debate or style debate, I'm interested in theoretical effect on bitterness amount and harshness and pros/cons on flavor and aroma.

For my pale ales, I usually only use 10 or 5 minute additions plus flame out.

This maximises aroma and flavour, but makes it hard to properly hit your desired bitterness. It depends on how fast you can chill it below alpha isomerisation temperature, which is somewhere below 80c. As long as the temperature stays above that, you still extract bitterness.

Once you get a feeling for it, it is a cool thing to do. A quick guesstimation can be obtained by using 15min or 20min in the brewersfriend ibu calculator for the 5 minute addition and 15 min for flame out.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm interested in theoretical effect on bitterness amount and harshness and pros/cons on flavor and aroma.

• http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/brew-strong-tracking-ibu/ [1]
  
• Basic Brewing Radio: Nov 1, 2018 eposide [2]
  
• https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/123 [1]
  
• http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/yakima-hop-brew-school/ (various episodes)
• book: The New IPA (the book is mostly about hops and hop oils, not NEIPAs)
  
• Basic Brewing Radio's Hop Sampler process (and various episodes).

[1] same guest, different hosts.
[2] data in PDF seems to match [1]

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Let's not get into a brulosophy debate or style debate, I'm interested in theoretical effect on bitterness amount and harshness and pros/cons on flavor and aroma.

In the FWIW category, these two articles do include lab measured IBUs (although the articles are a couple of years old, so they may be reasonably well known in 2019):

• Hop Stand vs. Boil Addition
• Kettle Hop vs. Hop Stand

So, what I'm wondering is trying all hops in for 10 min boil, flameout, then 10 min "hop stand" as wort cools naturally. Or half of hops in for 10 min boil and add other half at flameout for 10 min "hop stand" as wort cools naturally.

Like @Miraculix mentioned, it likely depends on your cool down rate after the hop stand (The IBU is a LIE! Kind of.....).

My experiences with BBR's hop sampler, when I measured wort temperature during cool down, is that I'll get some seasonal variation (due to different ambient temperatures). A 10 minute stand may not make a difference, but, for me, a 30 minute stand is measurable. So if one is looking for a consistent recipe, "as the wort cools naturally" may lead to some variation.

 

[dmtaylor]

By my calculations, which rely on a combination of Palmer and Tinseth, I have confirmed that yes, doubling a 60-minute hop addition and adding all at 20 minutes or having a prolonged hop stand can indeed match IBUs of the 60-minute boil. Furthermore...

And yes, you are nearly correct in that the same double 20-minute addition added instead at 10 minutes and flameout with a 10-minute hop stand can almost match the 20-minute addition... however might turn out a handful of IBUs lower to where this *might* need adjustment to 11 & 11 minutes or maybe 12 & 12, somewhere in there.

Following is a link/image of my generic catscratchy difficult-to-absorb IBU calc equations that I developed last January. If nothing else, try out my equation at the bottom of the sheet, it's pretty kickass and I'm most proud of it.

 

[ncbrewer]

This article has some good info on hop utilization in a hop stand: https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/

 

[CascadesBrewer]

[1] same guest, different hosts.

While the number of dick jokes on Brew Strong can make me cringe (though it seem that Jamil is not on this one), this episode talking about the Aaron Justus/Ballast Point Brewing study was really good because you had the knowledge of John Palmer discussion about how measured IBUs do not always correlate to bitterness. The Master Brewer's podcast is worth a listen as well.

 

[Aggie10]

Thanks all for some very informative links.

After reviewing them all I've settled on, for my PAs and IPAs, all boil hops in at 10 mins plus all hop stand hops in for 20 min after flameout with some stirring and natural cooling.

Also, I live at 1000m altitude so it was interesting to learn my boil utilization is 75% of sea level, which may explain why I've been underwhelmed by my beer's hop character previously. So, I'm going to bump up my boil hop amount to compensate for altitude, but I am not planning on an altitude adjustment for the hop stand because boiling point is not relevant...thoughts?

 

[keggert]

I did a beer several months ago that had zero bittering hops, all hops were added at flameout. Hop stand was 25 minutes it came out really well, bitterness was a little low for me but the wife really liked it. It took a lot of hops but you can make it work if you're willing to experiment with it.

 

[ncbrewer]

So, I'm going to bump up my boil hop amount to compensate for altitude, but I am not planning on an altitude adjustment for the hop stand because boiling point is not relevant...thoughts?

I agree. You could still experiment with different temperatures for the hop stand if you want to.

 

[eric19312]

I do use beersmith to calculate the IBU contribution from the whirlpool hops but I don't let those IBUs account for more than 50% of my total. If I want a 60 IBU beer I make sure I've got 30 IBU from the kettle additions and let the calculator claim whatever it wants to regarding total IBUs.

I've got a real aversion to zero IBU IPAs and super low IBU IPAs. I need some real IBU based bitterness no matter how much juicy fruity hop goodness you and pack in there. So even my lowest IBU IPAs (these are Brut IPAs) get 10 IBU hop extract in the boil and another 10 IBU pellet hops as a 5 minute addition.

 

[ncbrewer]

So, I'm going to bump up my boil hop amount to compensate for altitude, but I am not planning on an altitude adjustment for the hop stand because boiling point is not relevant...thoughts?

I agree. You could still experiment with different temperatures for the hop stand if you want to.

Looks like I read over that too fast. If you're doing a hop stand immediately after flameout, and not cooling it at all, there would be a difference in temperature of the hop stand and an effect on utilization. You would need to do the math and see how much difference in your case.