2 bad batches to start the hobby

[STL_Lucas]

Hey all. I've brewed 4 batches so far (all extract) and after tasting my first 2 I'm getting pretty frustrated with the time, money and effort I've spent and nothing to show for it. My first batch was an English Brown Ale and while it was somewhat drinkable I think the taste was too alcoholic. You didn't get all the brown ale flavors you should out of it and the taste had somewhat of an upfront harshness. My second batch was a pale ale that I just tried tonight and it has an extreme banana after-taste, not drinkable. I know that both of these can be because of high fermentation temps and while I'm sure I did everything else right I'm wondering what I can do to fix this.

I'm an apartment brewer and currently have the old swamp cooler in the closet. While I never actually measured the temp of the actual wort/beer while fermenting, the water in the cooler is always between 68-72. I know this is on the higher end but I was under the impression that 60-75 could work for ales.

The other thing that comes to mind is that while bottle conditioning they are sitting at room temp which is about 72-75 most of the time. Can the beers still produce more off-flavors in the bottle or is my problem during primary fermentation?

Any thoughts, ideas, feedback or encouragement would be extremely appreciated!

 

[shawnbou]

Sorry to hear you're having trouble. The good news is, with the collective wisdom on this board you'll have your answers in no time.

I think fermentation temperature is the place to start. High temperatures can cause fusel alcohol production (harsh solventy alcohol taste) and banana-ish ester production.

While you are correct that 60-75 "will work" for ales, that just means they'll ferment. They won't be really clean or true to style until you get the temperature of the wort down below 68 for most ale types.

Also, be aware that the temperature of your fermenting beer is as much as 5-10 degrees warmer than the ambient swamp cooler temperature. So based on your own numbers there, your fermenting wort may actually be as warm as 82 degrees.

See what you can do to get the swamp cooler water a little lower. It's not a bad idea to get a stick-on thermometer or even just tape a thermometer probe to the side of your vessel to get an idea of how warm the wort is on the wall of the fermenter ... keeping in mind that the center of the wort is warmer than that.

Hang in there and good luck!

 

[OkashiiBrew]

68 to 72 might not be right for some yeasts. Wyeast 1056 for example says 60 to 72 deg. Fermenting on the lower side will usually produce better beer. Wyeast 1332, Northwest ale is in the 67 to 71 degree range and might fit your needs better. Also what OG was the bad beer? The banana flavor is for sure a too warm fermentation. I had a Irish Red fermenting when the power died for 36 hours and I wasn't around to get the beer cooler. It tasted like plastic banana ()*^&%(!! I bottle condition at any temp it is currently with no issues. My cold fermented lager conditioned at 67 to 72 and is one of the best brews ever. I have a small Sanyo inexpensive apt fridge that will fit 2x 3gal better bottles. With a temp controller I can go any temp for fermentation. It does not take up much space but you can't use a regular airlock. I have seen stoppers with flaps online you can use instead of a bubbler. I just use the stopper with a paper towel soaked in starsan stuffed in the top (I know the purist cringe) and keep it moist to keep it in place and it works fine. Don't give up. Brewing Better Beer by Strong has been a great help.

 

[flars]

Sounds like your fermentation temperature is the culprit. Fermentation produces heat. The wort temperature for a beer around 1.047 gravity can increase 3° to 5°, up to 10° for big beers. Add that to the temperature of the water in your cooler and you have off flavors including fusel alcohols. The flavor you are describing sounds like fusels.

Ideal fermentation temperatures are towards the lower end of the yeasts temperature range.

I use a swamp cooler to keep my temps down. With an ambient room temp of 68° the cooler will hold the wort at 62°. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/photo/swamp-cooler-61314.html
If you can't use a set up like this freeze plastic soda bottles partially filled with water to ice down the water in the cooler. Test how many bottles of ice it will take with the cooler filled with water. Start with three in the morning and three at the end of the work day.

Add a thermo strip to your fermntor to track the temperature of the wort. Keep the thermo strip above the water level.

Your bottle conditioning temperature is ideal for carbonating.

 

[gr8shandini]

Sorry to hear you're not getting good results so far. But don't give up. I'll 3rd (or 4th) the notion that fermentation temps are the problem. If you can't find a way to bring them down, I'd try a yeast / style that is more forgiving. S-05 will still throw some off-flavors at those temps, but it's better than most and should at least get you something drinkable. A Belgian would be a good choice as well since the higher temps will actually help.

Or, if you want to come at it from another angle; now that it's fall, you might want to consider putting it outside and getting a brew-belt or similar heater to bring it up to the proper temperature. If you have a space to do so, of course.

Good luck on the next batch.

 

[Pie_Man]

The other thing that comes to mind is that while bottle conditioning they are sitting at room temp which is about 72-75 most of the time. Can the beers still produce more off-flavors in the bottle or is my problem during primary fermentation?

No, 72-75F is pretty standard for bottle conditioning.

As you, and others, mentioned, I think you problem is fermentation temperature. A better controlled swamp cooler, or a temperature controlled mini fridge, may be ideal for your setup. You may also want to consider 2-3 gallon batches which will make temperature control a little easier. What strain(s) of yeast did you use for the "bad" batches?

Good luck and keep brewing. You'll get better with experience.

 

[Renegades_Brew]

While everyone points to fermentation temps I will not disagree.

However what I will say is let your beer age a little bit and see if it cleans up any flavors. You will find many stories about beers being brewed and taking a long time to mellow out to drinkable. I myself have even had one that took 10 months of aging to get the flavor profile I was originally aiming for.

Don't give up and don't dump it. Pack it away in a closet and try one every few weeks to see how its doing.

 

[cjhammel]

How long did you leave the beer in the fermenter? I have found that leaving my beer in the fermenter for 3-6 weeks help clean up some of these off flavors. The first 3-5 days are the most critical for temp control after that I have been very lax in watching the temp. One way is to keep an eye on the weather an time your brews for the colder times of the year and wear sweaters around the apartment

 

[Desvio]

I have to agree with Renegades Brew, all of the ferment temp comments are true, but aging is sometimes necessary even if you nailed it. My Irish Red, Dunkle and Brown recipes require a little rest after bottling, my Irish Red especially needs a minimum of three months. Granted, they are all drinkable, but with time and patience they become exceptionally good.

 

[Arrheinous]

Keep on with it! If you can't get lower temperatures brew with a style that allows for higher ones. I've had a Belgian tripel at 75F for its first week of fermentation (minus whatever temperature it picks up from the yeast's activity) and became quite nice after a month.

Stick with it, make sure every 'failed' batch is a lesson for next time!

For anyone with a passion to start something, I think this little comic/quote sums the difficulties up well: Advice for Beginners, Ira Glass

 

[roastquake]

I'll add that Munton's yeast is extremely forgiving, I used it for at least my first 10 batches. It's real cheap and doesn't add much to the flavor profile. I've made good beer with it (but not excellent beer) all the way up to 75 degrees F. That said, If you want excellent beer, focus more on getting fermentation temps down. But a real forgiving strain like this is also an option.

 

[BigFloyd]

What yeast are you using?

Some kits will include Nottingham dry yeast. While it's a very nice yeast at cooler temps, it is the least tolerant of higher temps of any dry ale yeast. It starts to get funky at 68*F (beer temp) and just gets worse the warmer it gets. Unless your ferment temps are in the low-mid 60's, you ought to avoid it.

 

[hbtasdfg]

I'd take the 2 batches that you aren't happy with and put them in a cool dark place for 4 months then taste one.

It might be easier to do an easy style with a forgiving yeast then try for more exotic varieties after you nail it a couple times. Try an american ale style with a yeast like safale sf-05 (costs about 99 cents)

one way to help get temps lower is put the brew bucket in the bathtub or some other larger vessel and fill the tub with cold tap water to the level of the beer. More water helps keep it cooler by having more thermal capacity

 

[hbtasdfg]

Oh and also a lot of extract kits tell you to add 3 pounds of table sugar, this doesn't give optimal results, just use a second extract kit instead of extra sugar or buy malt extract at the homebrew shop instead of sugar- they can tell you how much to substitute.

 

[STL_Lucas]

Thanks all I really appreciate the feedback and tips. Being a condo brewer I can't really put anything outside (10th floor with no balcony). I think I'm going to look into a small chest freezer that will fit in my closet and still hold two fermenters. I'll just have to find a new place to put my clothes! All brews have been made the same way and yeast for each is as follows:

English Brown Ale = Sachet Dry Yeast, Fermented 3 weeks and Bottled for 3 weeks
Sierra Pale Ale Clone = Munton and Fison Dry Yeast, Fermented 4 weeks and Bottled for 3 weeks
Belgian Wit = Wyeast #3944 with yeast starter, Fermented 3 1/2 weeks but haven't bottled yet
Irish Stout = Wyeast #1084 with yeast starter, Only been fermenting 3 days

That being said I have a few more questions. I am trying to bring the temp in the swamp cooler down to 60 for my Wit and Stout. Once the off flavors have been created are they there for good or will the beer still clean them up with time? Once the beer is bottled will it still clean up the off flavors over time? Since I only put 2 of my Banana bombs in the fridge and the rest are still boxed in the other room is there still a chance they will get better over time? How long do most ferment these types of beers? Thanks again for the response and feedback I really appreciate it!

 

[BigFloyd]

That being said I have a few more questions. I am trying to bring the temp in the swamp cooler down to 60 for my Wit and Stout. Once the off flavors have been created are they there for good or will the beer still clean them up with time? Once the beer is bottled will it still clean up the off flavors over time? Since I only put 2 of my Banana bombs in the fridge and the rest are still boxed in the other room is there still a chance they will get better over time? How long do most ferment these types of beers? Thanks again for the response and feedback I really appreciate it!

1) Nothing wrong with your ferment times.

2) Time in the bottles can potentially lessen certain off-flavors. It may take several weeks to months. Box em up, label with the date, take out one bottle each month to fridge (3+ days) and test.

3) One thing that can help you a lot on the temp issue is to PITCH COOLER (like 60*F wort) and let the beer come up into the 63-64*F range during the first day. The ferment will start more slowly, but you will lessen (or eliminate) the off-flavors. When you pitch warm (above 68*F) and try to get it cooler, you are fighting the exothermic reactions that occur once the ferment gets going.

 

[STL_Lucas]

Thanks BigFloyd that makes a lot of sense on the pitching low. I've probably been pitching at about 70*F then putting the cooler and trying to keep it there. I think I was actually almost afraid of getting the temp too low but it sounds like thats the opposite of what I should have done. I will definitely make sure to get the temp down around 60 before pitching.

Also would it make more sense to give the beer more time in the fermenters before bottling or more time in the bottles? Should the beer taste good going into the bottle?

 

[Devilsnight]

Stick it out! read up, you'll figure out your mistakes as time goes by. My first 2 brews : tasted pretty bad 2 weeks after bottling, The first was drinkable after conditioning for 6-8 weeks. The second never changed, I ended up dumping em. But, I'm drinking my 4th brew right now which is an english bitter that turned out excellent! My family helped polish off 16 bottles at supper saturday night, Thats when you know you got it right!!
Probly wouldn't have made it this far without the ppl on this board. Ask and read, thats my only amateur insight to offer at the moment

 

[FatDragon]

My first beer got some massive estery aftertastes, like the banana you're tasting, borderline undrinkable. The reason was almost definitely fermentation temperature in that case. 5-6 weeks after bottling, it's calmed down a lot. I can still taste the esters if I try, but most of those flavors have aged out. No promise yours will, but unless you absolutely need those bottles free, I'd let 'em ride.

 

[troy2000]

You might try Belle Saison, a dry yeast from Danstar. It loves high temperatures...

 

[gr8shandini]

. . .
Also would it make more sense to give the beer more time in the fermenters before bottling or more time in the bottles? Should the beer taste good going into the bottle?

Yes, the beer should definitely taste good going into the bottle. I know it's the popular (or at least vocal) opinion on this board that beer needs extensive aging, but that's simply not true for most styles. For an average gravity ale, 2 weeks in the fermenter and 3 weeks to bottle condition is plenty. Additional aging may clean up off flavors to an extent, but it's best not to produce them to begin with.

That said, your stout is one of the exceptions. It should still taste good at bottling time, but it may be overly "roasty" and might benefit from a few extra weeks. Fermenter or bottle doesn't really matter much. The rule of thumb is that a beer might benefit from extra age if it's big, spiced, or black.