Yet another grain mill motor question

[TANSTAAFB]

I just found this Dayton 4M221 motor for sale by a local homebrewer

Here's a link to specs for a motor that I think is the same
http://www.emotorpro.com/Century415...lator-AirHandlerand-FanCoilUnitMotor-415.aspx

So can this be used with a Lovejoy or would I need a pulley set up? If I can go the Lovejoy route (definitely preferred) how do I figure out what parts to order? I have a Barley Crusher. Any help is appreciated. I've been looking into motorizing my mill for a while, really hoping this motor will work. I plan on mounting it to a Harbor Freight cart.
https://m.harborfreight.com/30-in-x-16-in-two-shelf-steel-service-cart-60390.html

 

[mongoose33]

According to the specs you provide, it has 1050 RPM. That's too fast. You want to drop that down to around 150-200 rpm, and need some kind of gear reduction to do that--or pulleys.

The nice thing about lovejoy connectors is they put no lateral stress on the bearings or bushings of a mill. The downside is you need to have the RPMs dialed down.

An alternative is to use pulleys to turn a shaft and then use the lovejoy connectors to connect that shaft to the mill.

I recently bought a new mill and motorized it. Wonderful, just wonderful.

You're either going to have to mate it to a reducer or use pulleys to reduce the RPMs.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Didn't even pay attention to the rpm! Damn, guess it's sheaves and belts if I decide to buy it. At $20 it's hard to pass up but not if it's going to cost a bunch in extra parts and not have what I really want. I'd need around a 10-12" to adequately reduce the speed. Hmmm...

 

[beernutz]

I wonder if you could use a router speed controller to lower the rpms on that motor? I use one like the one below from HF on a 600 rpm single speed drill to lower its rpms down to a manageable level. I bought mine on amazon for around $12 shipped.

https://www.harborfreight.com/router-speed-control-43060.html

 

[The_Bishop]

It won't have the torque to turn the mill unless it's got some form of gear reduction.

After spending far too much time looking for a DIY solution that wasn't either too big or hazard fraught, I ended up using this:

https://www.williamsbrewing.com/triple-roller-grain-mill-motorizing-kit-p4173.aspx

Aside from replacing the coupling with a real lovejoy, it's been completely flawless running my 3 roller Monster Mill.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Yeah, $200 for convenience is not in my near future! I have several other upgrades that take priority

 

[BeardedBrews]

I'm not sure you'll be able to attach that motor to a grain mill for less than $50. Probably closer to $70 if you don't have a work bench with spare screws, bolts, and parts laying around.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chicago-Di...y-A-Belt-10-OD-X-1-2-Bore-1000A5/302586140366

You can use reducers to get a more common 1/2 bore pulley down to the 3/8 from your mill, and then the motor side can be done with a fairly common 3/8 by 1.5" or something. Then you just need a belt and a light switch, and some bolts to hold the motor to the table.


I'm using these:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01IMOS20A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
https://www.sciplus.com/p/car-seat-312vdc-gear-motor_49248

And I have some pictures at the end of this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/low-bucks-motorized-grain-mill.490724/page-6#post-7508333

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

Nice @BeardedBrews . Another low cost option for 12VDC power is an old desktop PC power supply, they usually have 10-20 amps @12V and up to 30amps for the 5vdc supply, in short, plenty of power .

My grain mill is driven by an old (batteries died) 14V Hitachi cordless drill wired to the 12V on a PC power supply. The cordless drill is 2-speed VSR, so I set the speed to 1 (slow/hi-torque) and use a hose clamp to hold the trigger @ 200rpm. Most cordless drills have that same low speed-high torque setting , see pic.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

So I'm kinda electrically impaired [emoji12]
Lemme make sure I've got this straight. I can use an old computer supply and either wire directly to the motor or wire the appropriate adapter to the motor and plug the adapter in. Then I can plug the AC side into a switched outlet. I have a nice 4 outlet extension with a switch so I'll likely use that. Then I need a 3/8"x1.5" or 2" sheave for the motor side and a 3/8"x10"ish sheave for the mill side, might have to bush down from 1/2" bore. Obviously I need a belt of appropriate length. Luckily I have a real hardware store in town so I can likely get everything there. If their prices are insane I can at least make sure I know what I need and purchase online. This is also a pretty agricultural area as well, so might be able to find stuff around town.

 

[BeardedBrews]

So I'm kinda electrically impaired [emoji12]
Lemme make sure I've got this straight. I can use an old computer supply and either wire directly to the motor or wire the appropriate adapter to the motor and plug the adapter in. Then I can plug the AC side into a switched outlet. I have a nice 4 outlet extension with a switch so I'll likely use that. Then I need a 3/8"x1.5" or 2" sheave for the motor side and a 3/8"x10"ish sheave for the mill side, might have to bush down from 1/2" bore. Obviously I need a belt of appropriate length. Luckily I have a real hardware store in town so I can likely get everything there. If their prices are insane I can at least make sure I know what I need and purchase online. This is also a pretty agricultural area as well, so might be able to find stuff around town.

Sorry Tanstaafb, we got away from your motor in those posts. Yours is an AC motor, should be able to attach a plug to the end of the cord and plug it straight into your power strip.

For the pulleys you will get speed reduction equal to the ratio of pulley diameters:

2" on the motor and 8" on the mill is (2/8 = 0.25) so your mill speed would be the motor speed times the ratio (0.25 * 1050 = 262 rpm). Using a smaller pulley on the motor will slow down the mill, but it also wears out the belt faster. Using a bigger pulley on the mill will also slow it down, but the big pulleys tend to be more expensive, heavy, and harder on the bushings in the mill. Using pulleys to slow down the RPM also increases the torque, so going slower is actually going to get you more crushing power.

It is very likely that you can find the parts you need at local shops and hardware stores. You may even get lucky and be able to find the part you need at a scrap yard or a good will.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Even better! I really didn't want a pulley set up but cest la vie. According to this calculator (I freaking love the internet )
https://www.blocklayer.com/pulley-belteng.aspx
it looks like I'd need a 9" and a 1.5" to reduce the RPM to 175. I think I'll take the faster belt wear to keep the large pulley as small as possible. Might even go 8" as it's still under 200RPM

 

[ancientmariner52]

Don't neglect putting guards on your pulleys and belt. It's harder to brew with fingers missing.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Yup, I like my fingers! So if I skipped this motor so I could go with something that can be connected via Lovejoy, what is a cheap motor option? Remember, I used to be a plumber... electrically impaired [emoji6]

 

[BeardedBrews]

Yup, I like my fingers! So if I skipped this motor so I could go with something that can be connected via Lovejoy, what is a cheap motor option? Remember, I used to be a plumber... electrically impaired [emoji6]

Have you considered this?
https://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-Heavy-Duty-Variable-Speed-Reversible-Drill-61741.html


If the idea of zip-ties on a drill offends you, the 12v car seat motor is the next cheapest approach:

I'm using these: https://www.sciplus.com/p/car-seat-312vdc-gear-motor_49248 (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B005IR1NBA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)

And I have some pictures at the end of this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/low-bucks-motorized-grain-mill.490724/page-6#post-7508333

 

[ClaudiusB]

I freaking love the internet

it looks like I'd need a 9" and a 1.5" to reduce the RPM to 175.

Now do some torque calculation before you start building. 175 RPM is still too fast for your 1/12 hp motor to get adequate torque.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Now do some torque calculation before you start building. 175 RPM is still too fast for your 1/12 hp motor to get adequate torque.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

What rpm do I need to maintain adequate torque? That's not on my handy dandy calculator...

 

[BeardedBrews]

With a 1/12hp motor probably a 20:1 reduction, so running at 40-50rpm. You might be better off cranking by hand


Most people end up with something like a 1/3hp 1750rpm motor since those are common in washers and dryers. Using a 10:1 reduction you get 175rpm and ~120inch-pounds of torque.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Gotcha. That's a lot of effort and money to get a sub par end result. Might have to let the dude know after some research I reconsidered. He had a brand new Barley Crusher and a brand new motor, I assumed he had a solid plan...never assume [emoji16]

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Again, I read what I wanted to read. I saw that as 1/2hp this whole time so was confused by why it would have such low torque. 1/12hp. Heh

 

[mongoose33]

Now do some torque calculation before you start building. 175 RPM is still too fast for your 1/12 hp motor to get adequate torque.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

Claudius, just a question on how this works--I missed the 1/12 HP thing too!

If you gear down a 1/12 HP motor running at 1050 RPM to, say, 175 rpm, isn't that essentially equivalent to increasing the effective torque 1050/175 or 6x? Which would make it a 6/12 or 1/2 HP motor...effectively? (That's without any losses to friction).

I have an AllAmericanAleworks motor that is rated at 1/2 HP running my mill. It's a 1750rpm motor run through a gear reduction dropping the RPMs to 175. The torque is 2kg.m. / 14.46 foot pounds / 173.52 inch pounds according to the website. Now, having said that, it's a beast, it is a massive motor....

I'm not trying to start an argument here, just trying understand this better.

 

[The_Bishop]

Gear reduction had a direct effect on torque. Horsepower is a number derived from torque and speed. You can't 'multiply' the horsepower rating.

 

[ClaudiusB]

What rpm do I need to maintain adequate torque? That's not on my handy dandy calculator...

http://nepsi.com/resources/calculators/motor-torque.htm

Most mills should work very well with >40 LB-in ,150RPM.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Thanks for all the input, I really appreciate it. Passed on the motor and will keep looking. Might just buy the cart, mount the mill, and keep using my drill until I feel like springing for one of the prefab setups from Williams or All American Ale Works.