WLP648 Brett Brux Trois Vrai - Single Strain Primary Fermentation

[eric19312]

Have not brewed this yet looking for advice. Checked the other threads on here mentioning this yeast - confusing lot with many jumping straight into complicated multi strain pitches.

I am curious about this strain as I tried brewing a version of Tonsmeier's Neverwhere receipe with different hops. It was odd, originally I thought that flavor was from the odd german hops I used, but more I have incorporated 644 into my other beers it is a flavor I have grown to recognize at different stages of fermentation and in the final beer. Starts out massive fruit salad then tones down over time into something pretty nice.

But I re-read Sour Beers and it seems Tonsmeier set out to build on Super Friends IPA experience when he designed Neverwhere. Now SF IPA was brewed apparently with Brett Drie. But which one? Since 644 isn't even Brett maybe 648 is closer to what they used?

So that is idea for this beer I intend to eventually make. Next is how to try to make it. I have one vial of 648. I guess a starter is in order. How should I go about propagating enough yeast to try to get this to do a clean IPA fermentation?

I am thinking about starting with 500 mL starter for 7-10 days (no stir plate just occasional shaking), cold crash, decant and pitch into a 1 gallon batch of hopped wort - also about 1.040. Ferment that out, cold crash, bottle and then pitch the whole cake into a 5 gallon APA.

The 5 gallon batch would then provide enough yeast for massive primary pitch.

Any thoughts on this plan? Any experience using this yeast as a primary and solitary yeast in production of an IPA?

 

[MaddBaggins]

I recently kegged a batch of peach saison that used 648 as the only yeast. It's fruity and tart.
I made a 2L starter, grew it for 4 days. Fermentation temp was high 70's. 4 weeks 1.054 OG 1.01 FG
Mine took almost 36hours to show airlock activity.
Very low flocculation. The beer looks dirty. In fact, I've never had a beer look this cloudy, ever, and I've been at this for 18yrs. I don't think it's pectin haze. The peaches were washed, chopped, frozen then added to the fermenter. No boiling the fruit.

I think your starter plan sounds good except I wouldn't pitch on a whole cake. I did that once. Big mess.

 

[eric19312]

I think your starter plan sounds good except I wouldn't pitch on a whole cake. I did that once. Big mess.

Remember it i whole cake from a 1 gallon batch. That is really just a 4 liter starter...

 

[MaddBaggins]

Remember it i whole cake from a 1 gallon batch. That is really just a 4 liter starter...

Ahh, I read it wrong then. A 5g cake blew the lid of my fermenter once. what a mess. :cross:

 

[lawle102]

You have a lot going on for an IPA.

Ferment down with a standard ale yeast, then finish for 3-4 months on brett brux.

You will still get plenty of brett character without many issues.

 

[SanPancho]

where did you find the 648? i've been looking all over the place for it and cant find it anywhere- and im in california. you'd think it'd be easy with half a dozen LHBS all around me and whitelabs HQ just a few hours' south of here.

is it a platinum/seasonal strain? i've asked at all the shops, and a few even said they couldnt find it on whitelabs' site as something that was available for them to order. very strange.

i had to settle for the 644 "brux-like" sach. not exactly what i was looking for as i'd hoped to do a 100% brett beer.

 

[plustroy63]

I used trois as my primary yeast on an ipa with an og of 1.072 and used a 2 liter starter. fermented in the 70's and it tore through that ipa and the taste was great from 2 weeks in the bottle to 1 year. constantly evolved. At first it was very fruity and in line with the hops, bit of tropical fruit and pineapple. As time went on the funk increased and a bit of pepper like spice developed which was awesome. recipe here https://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/brett-the-hit-man-hop

 

[MaddBaggins]

where did you find the 648? i've been looking all over the place for it and cant find it anywhere- and im in california. you'd think it'd be easy with half a dozen LHBS all around me and whitelabs HQ just a few hours' south of here.



is it a platinum/seasonal strain? i've asked at all the shops, and a few even said they couldnt find it on whitelabs' site as something that was available for them to order. very strange.



i had to settle for the 644 "brux-like" sach. not exactly what i was looking for as i'd hoped to do a 100% brett beer.

I got it at my LHBS in Tucson. It's not a platinum/seasonal. I'm surprised you can't get it all day long in CA.

 

[Oldsock]

Have not brewed this yet looking for advice. Checked the other threads on here mentioning this yeast - confusing lot with many jumping straight into complicated multi strain pitches.

I am curious about this strain as I tried brewing a version of Tonsmeier's Neverwhere receipe with different hops. It was odd, originally I thought that flavor was from the odd german hops I used, but more I have incorporated 644 into my other beers it is a flavor I have grown to recognize at different stages of fermentation and in the final beer. Starts out massive fruit salad then tones down over time into something pretty nice.

But I re-read Sour Beers and it seems Tonsmeier set out to build on Super Friends IPA experience when he designed Neverwhere. Now SF IPA was brewed apparently with Brett Drie. But which one? Since 644 isn't even Brett maybe 648 is closer to what they used?

So that is idea for this beer I intend to eventually make. Next is how to try to make it. I have one vial of 648. I guess a starter is in order. How should I go about propagating enough yeast to try to get this to do a clean IPA fermentation?

I am thinking about starting with 500 mL starter for 7-10 days (no stir plate just occasional shaking), cold crash, decant and pitch into a 1 gallon batch of hopped wort - also about 1.040. Ferment that out, cold crash, bottle and then pitch the whole cake into a 5 gallon APA.

The 5 gallon batch would then provide enough yeast for massive primary pitch.

Any thoughts on this plan? Any experience using this yeast as a primary and solitary yeast in production of an IPA?

Yep, 648 is "supposed" to be closer to the original BSI Drie (which is what we used in the commercial version of Neverwhere at Modern Times - my original homebrewed back was 644).

Your starter plan sounds fine, although even .5 L may be pushing the initial cell count ~3 billion.

Still haven't gotten around to using 648, but it's on my list!

 

[eric19312]

Yep, 648 is "supposed" to be closer to the original BSI Drie (which is what we used in the commercial version of Neverwhere at Modern Times - my original homebrewed back was 644).

Your starter plan sounds fine, although even .5 L may be pushing the initial cell count ~3 billion.

Still haven't gotten around to using 648, but it's on my list!

Ok so I ordered a smaller erlenmeyer and will add an initial 200 mL starter for a week. I don't have equipment to count cells so am basically just hoping to achieve over pitch when I go into the 1 gallon fermenter.

 

[SanPancho]

i dont get it. nobody has it around here, and they say they cant even order it. i dont understand it, i see it online at other brew shops as of august 2015.

i guess i'll just have to wait for it to come around. im not sure its such a good idea to have to order it from some of these shops- its still pretty hot in most of the country and not sure its a good idea to have it shipped from east coast to west coast.

bummer.

 

[eric19312]

i dont get it. nobody has it around here, and they say they cant even order it. i dont understand it, i see it online at other brew shops as of august 2015.

i guess i'll just have to wait for it to come around. im not sure its such a good idea to have to order it from some of these shops- its still pretty hot in most of the country and not sure its a good idea to have it shipped from east coast to west coast.

bummer.

Im sorry I don't know where we got it, my brewing partner ordered it. Ive had it in a 200mL starter on a plate for 3 days now. Not much going on yet. Stuff smelled quite acetic when I opened the vial.

 

[505-Brewer]

i dont get it. nobody has it around here, and they say they cant even order it. i dont understand it, i see it online at other brew shops as of august 2015.



i guess i'll just have to wait for it to come around. im not sure its such a good idea to have to order it from some of these shops- its still pretty hot in most of the country and not sure its a good idea to have it shipped from east coast to west coast.



bummer.

Ive asked my local homebrew shop to get me a vial. They don't often stock bugs/brett because they sometimes sit for too long.
If White Labs has a production issue I'll find out. If not I can order an extra vial. I'll be in San Jose in 2 weeks if u want one PM me maybe you can collect it from me there (won't have my own wheels).

Cheers

 

[MaddBaggins]

I harvested it from my peach saison. Anybody around Tucson want some? I have enough to share and no immediate plans for another brew.

 

[eric19312]

So here is an update on my progress with this experiment.

I built up my starter (all on a stir plate at room temperature):
200 mL 1 week, crashed, decanted
500 mL 1 week, crashed
got busy with life for about 6 weeks
decanted
1600 mL 4 days. Saved 1 pint for future use, pitched the rest.

10.5 gallons in the fermenter, half pitched with the 648, other half got US05 harvested from recent batch.

Recipe:
US 2-row 50%
Marris Otter 25%
5% each US C20, UK Wheat Malt, Munich, Vienna, Table Sugar
OG 1.069
1oz CTZ FWH
25 IBU Hop Extract (farmhouse - 6mL)
6oz Galaxy at flameout
2oz each CTZ, Simcoe, Comet at flameout
30 min Whirlpool at 180F
115 IBU calculated by Rager

Oxygenated the wort that got US05. US05 got 1 cup very thin slurry from a batch brewed 2 weeks earlier. Pitched side by side with temp controlled to 68F.

US05 carboy was at high krausen in 24 hours.
3 days later I am still waiting for krausen to lift on the 648.

Needless to say I am starting to worry.

 

[SanPancho]

my experience with giga yeast sour cherry brett was that you really didnt see a krauzen on the wort. and there were very little to almost no bubble out of the airlock either. kinda crazy, but your 648 might be going along just fine. gravity check is the only way to know for sure.

 

[eric19312]

OK well seeing as I started this thread I'd better post results. Headline above pretty much says it all.

Brewed this as a side by side batch. The half that got US-05 (slurry) was delightful. Submitted it to a local competition and got a 33.5, didn't place but still a decent score. One of the judges gave it a 35 and said "VERY good IPA, love the hop explosion just a bit too much yeast character". The other judge gave it a 32 and clearly didn't get the hops. Thought it had a strong spicy aroma that was "not hop character". Ah well. I think the extra yeast character the first judge got was the fact it was 8.1% ABV that finished at 1.008. Was delicious, keg went super fast, and will be re-brewing soon perhaps a bit higher mash temp and lower OG to try to bring it in at 7% with FG 0f 1.010.

The WLP648 version on the other hand...is just not good. Took almost 2 months to reach terminal gravity which was 1.013. After 3 weeks in the keg it is still hazy, probably yeast (the US05 that got same dry hops dropped bright clear). Aroma is interesting, fruity, maybe strawberry, juicy fruit gum, bit of alcohol underneath. Some plastic or bandaid in there too. Flavor starts out promising, fruit/wine forward hops, but then changes into an unpleasant and astringent bitterness combined in not a good way with brett funkiness. Carb is good and I get a thin creamy persistent white head.

Not sure what to do next. Will keep it on for a few more weeks and see how it develops. No pressure to free up that tap in the keezer just yet. If I decide to dump it I will go ahead and fill some bottles and see how it ages out over time.

 

[Oldsock]

I've had some 688 kicking around for a couple months. Pitched it for bottle conditioning in a Westy Blonde clone, thus far not impressive (but still young). Today I pitched the stepped up starter into a soured wort that I then pasteurized with Mosaic/Citra/Simcoe... hopefully it ferments out quickly-ish since I'm planning to serve it during my seminar at HomebrewCon in six weeks!

 

[Ted123]

I am EXTREMELY down on 648/Vrai -- I was seeking something like Drei, or like the BSI trois -- and I wanted to keep refining my all-brett IPA experiments (and thus didn't want to use the "wild sach/brux"--haven't gotten around to that yet) . . .
. . . Vrai is gross.
Very Ivory-soapy, bandaidey and weird. Realy not a fan, and I don't understand how Vrai is supposed to be part of the esteemed "Trois" lineage (?!). Wish I could get a hold of the BSI!
--ted

 

[eric19312]

I had pulled that keg in March and left to the side in the garage. Put back on tap for another check at beginning of May.

Much much better. Will not dump. Clearly a “Belgian” IPA with funky brett notes now but complimented by hop character and barely can remember what I meant by nasty astringent bitterness. Took a gravity sample and degassed and looks to be about 1.012 so within margin of error from before. Much clearer after a few days in the keezer. Possibly it just needed more time to floc out. I may just be willing to take another go with this yeast but make a much much larger starter and give it longer to ferment. Perhaps it needs higher temperature too.


Checking out the WLP website I see optimal temp 70-85. Then reading the reviews I see advice to ferment hot. My side by side above I used my normal temperature for US-05...68F. Might actually be closer to 66-67 as I've not calibrated the probe on my STC ever and the aquarium sticker thermometers on my carboys seem to be showing a little lower than the probe. So my working hypothesis is that I got a sluggish fermentation using too small of a starter and pitching below the low end of the range.

 

[eric19312]

I am EXTREMELY down on 648/Vrai -- I was seeking something like Drei, or like the BSI trois -- and I wanted to keep refining my all-brett IPA experiments (and thus didn't want to use the "wild sach/brux"--haven't gotten around to that yet) . . .
. . . Vrai is gross.
Very Ivory-soapy, bandaidey and weird. Realy not a fan, and I don't understand how Vrai is supposed to be part of the esteemed "Trois" lineage (?!). Wish I could get a hold of the BSI!
--ted

Ted tell me more about your fermentation with WLP648. Starter size and fermentation temperature? Did it clear at the end or stay cloudy or hazy?

 

[snowveil]

I am EXTREMELY down on 648/Vrai -- I was seeking something like Drei, or like the BSI trois -- and I wanted to keep refining my all-brett IPA experiments (and thus didn't want to use the "wild sach/brux"--haven't gotten around to that yet) . . .
. . . Vrai is gross.
Very Ivory-soapy, bandaidey and weird. Realy not a fan, and I don't understand how Vrai is supposed to be part of the esteemed "Trois" lineage (?!). Wish I could get a hold of the BSI!
--ted

Ditto, I'd be interested to hear some details about the fermentation. How did it look, how did it flocc, what temperatures....etc.

I had a bottle of New Holland Mischievous that was supposedly fermented exclusively with Brett Trois Vrai. I couldn't finish it. It had an awesome dark berry aroma to it, but the flavor was incredibly band-aid / rubber phenolic that caused me to pour it down the drain. I cultured some of the yeast into a small starter anyway, to experiment with a little bit.

I shot the brewery an email asking for any tips using the yeast and didn't get a response.

On Feb 26th (~6 weeks ago) I pitched a small slurry from the starter into about 3/4 gallon of 1.045 2-row/oat wort (hopped with simcoe/citra to around 40ish IBU) and I didn't see any visible fermentation in my 65*F fermentation chamber. I've read somewhere that this strain likes it warmer but I haven't experimented with bumping it up. I just pulled a sample today and it has only dropped down 7 gravity points to 1.038. pH is sitting at 4.10. I'm not going to chance tasting it, because I don't trust the Brett is what actually got it there.

I will say the yeast starter looked unlike any starter I've ever seen. Perhaps I got something in there other than just the Vrai....but it had a weird flocculated mass floating inside the bottom of the flask..but not dropped out on the bottom. It's quite possible this isn't the Brett but is maybe something else entirely. The starter *did* smell like the beer I cultured from, though.

I wonder if this strain is more lauded for it's ability to work alongside pedio as opposed to a primary strain.

 

[SanPancho]

Ivory-soapy, bandaidey and weird.

ditto. used in berliner, and the body was very clean and light and crisp, but the finish had this weird aftertaste i couldnt put my finger on....

band aid sounds about right. plus some plastic. but not soapy.

in any case, ive been wondering if it was something i did or the yeast itself. glad to know im not only one who had that experience.

the funny thing is, the aroma is great. just a light bit of fruitiness that goes weill with the sour. but the aftertaste is gross. maybe i can cover it up by adding some hops to clean up the finish?

so far a bummer. had high hopes for a "primary" brett strain....

 

[snowveil]

@oldsock

Care to comment how your sour is coming along with this yeast strain? Picking up any plastic/phenolic off-flavors? Also, any notable differences between this and the Brett Drie you've used in the past?

I was amazed at the flavor/aroma character differences between WLP644 and WLP648 from my limited experience. I don't know if I want to totally give up on 648 but my experience thus far seemed promising only to produce those really harsh phenols...not sure if there's a way to subdue them with a mixed culture or constraints on temperature, pitch rate, wort composition, etc.

 

[Oldsock]

@oldsock

Care to comment how your sour is coming along with this yeast strain? Picking up any plastic/phenolic off-flavors? Also, any notable differences between this and the Brett Drie you've used in the past?

I was amazed at the flavor/aroma character differences between WLP644 and WLP648 from my limited experience. I don't know if I want to totally give up on 648 but my experience thus far seemed promising only to produce those really harsh phenols...not sure if there's a way to subdue them with a mixed culture or constraints on temperature, pitch rate, wort composition, etc.

At kegging I was impressed (relieved at least). Down to 1.009 (.001 higher than my house-saison blend). It had turned the hop aromatics into pineapple initially, but at two weeks was tasting more passion fruit. No plastic or heavily phenolic notes to my tastes. Maybe the 3.4 pH helped? Or just covered up by the hops? Chad Yakobson found Drie seemed to be more attenuative at a lower starting pH.

 

[snowveil]

At kegging I was impressed (relieved at least). Down to 1.009 (.001 higher than my house-saison blend). It had turned the hop aromatics into pineapple initially, but at two weeks was tasting more passion fruit. No plastic or heavily phenolic notes to my tastes. Maybe the 3.4 pH helped? Or just covered up by the hops? Chad Yakobson found Drie seemed to be more attenuative at a lower starting pH.

Michael,

Had the beer at NHC during the seminar and it was great. Quite possibly the pH had a lot to do with it.

I've since cultured more of the "trois vrai (drie)", this time from a mixed-brett culture in Avery's 23rd anniversary beer. The 23rd anniversary beer was fermented with brett only...Brett Drie, Brux, and Custersianus. I contacted the brewery to verify and these were indeed the only 3 strains in the bottle.

As for the Avery 23, I didn't get any phenolic off-flavors...it was very enjoyable. My plans for this culture is to send it after a barleywine to bring out a little funk and stonefruit character.

As for the appearance....on the left is the Brett Cust./Drie/Brux culture, on the right is the Drie culture (from New Holland's Mischievous). The Avery 23 culture had 3 VERY different brett cultures in appearance alone...one was very dusty, one flocced out pretty quickly, and the other...well...was lumpy looking. Very much like the Drie I thought was possibly contaminated from the initial Drie capture.

This may not help with flavor/aroma analysis...but I thought it was cool regardless!