Wlp002 and fusels?

[Miraculix]

Good morning, day, evening,

After a long absence due to moving houses and countries, I brewed a beer again. A variation of my own creation Miraculix Best, basically ten percent crystal, ten percent spelt flour and rest pale malt, og 1.04, fg 1.011 fermented at room temperature.

Usually I use imperial yeast pub, but couldn't get hold of it and used wlp002 instead, which is supposed to be the same strain. I never had any issues with pub but this time, with the 002, the beer tastes slightly unpleasant like fusels do, until you get used to it and don't taste it anymore.

Next day, heeaaaadaaaache!!! I had two and a half beer yesterday and this morning my head was hurting like I had twelve. That cannot be good.

The only difference in the process that I can think of is pitching rate. I used to pitch the whole Imperial yeast pack into about 17 liters of wort and now I pitched the wlp yeast, without a starter, into about 13 liters of wort. Fermentation started within ten hours though. Only other difference is that my old fermenter used to be not air tight, my new one is air tight.

So what is your experience with 002?

Anything similar happened to you?

 

[IslandLizard]

Welcome back from your new country!
Moved by choice? I envy you, but also don't, given the incredible amount of effort it takes. I did it once when I was a lot younger. I doubt I could do it now, unless really pushed.

What "room temps" were you fermenting at? Higher ferm temps tend to produce more fusel alcohols.

I've not used WLP002, but did quite a few brews with her sister strain WY1968. Never had any issues in the fusel dept, even at 68-70F. It just got a lot fruitier at the elevated temps.

 

[Miraculix]

Welcome back from your new country!
Moved by choice? I envy you, but also don't, given the incredible amount of effort it takes. I did it once when I was a lot younger. I doubt I could do it now, unless really pushed.

What "room temps" were you fermenting at? Higher ferm temps tend to produce more fusel alcohols.

I've not used WLP002, but did quite a few brews with her sister strain WY1968. Never had any issues in the fusel dept, even at 68-70F. It just got a lot fruitier at the elevated temps.

Thanks. Yes, by choice, back to Germany after five years of UK. The temperatures where around 20c I guess, cannot say for sure but it wasn't really high at any point. Also the gravity was fairly low... Shouldn't be a problem at all. Maybe the pitching temperature was a bit high around 25c, but that's it.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks. Yes, by choice, back to Germany after five years of UK. The temperatures where around 20c I guess, cannot say for sure but it wasn't really high at any point. Also the gravity was fairly low... Shouldn't be a problem at all. Maybe the pitching temperature was a bit high around 25c, but that's it.

Did you use a moving truck? It's amazing how much stuff one can gather in 5 years, let stand in 30+ yrs. Now some may be obsolete, but most is just day to day useables and sentimental items.

Indeed, 20C (68F) should not yield fusels with that yeast. Very puzzling.
Maybe it's something else. How's your water quality there?

 

[VikeMan]

Maybe the pitching temperature was a bit high around 25c, but that's it.

I use WLP002 a lot and haven't had issues with fusels. But I ferment with it in the 60s (F). 25C (77F) is too high for this strain. And high temperatures are the main driver of fusels.

 

[Miraculix]

Did you use a moving truck? It's amazing how much stuff one can gather in 5 years, let stand in 30+ yrs. Now some may be obsolete, but most is just day to day useables and sentimental items.

Indeed, 20C (68F) should not yield fusels with that yeast. Very puzzling.
Maybe it's something else. How's your water quality there?

Water is fine, I used some salts in addition so there should be a good base for the yeast to work.

I actually shipped all my stuff via DHL. 16 parcels, each about 20kg, so much fun for the delivery guy....

I use WLP002 a lot and haven't had issues with fusels. But I ferment with it in the 60s (F). 25C (77F) is too high for this strain. And high temperatures are the main driver of fusels.

Yes, I agree. It was only that high at the start, I don't chill and that was the temperature it had after waiting over night. Maybe the warmer start was the reason... Back to kveik then?

 

[VikeMan]

Yes, I agree. It was only that high at the start, I don't chill and that was the temperature it had after waiting over night. Maybe the warmer start was the reason...

Fusels are created pretty early in fermentation.

Picture ~3.5 gallons (US) of wort at ~25C (77F) sitting in an ambient environment of ~20C (68F). It takes a long time for that wort to get down to room temp, if it ever does. I say "if it ever does," because fermentation probably took off well before that point, generating even more heat.

Back to kveik then?

Or fermentation temperature control.

 

[Miraculix]

Fusels are created pretty early in fermentation.

Picture ~3.5 gallons (US) of wort at ~25C (77F) sitting in an ambient environment of ~20C (68F). It takes a long time for that wort to get down to room temp, if it ever does. I say "if it ever does," because fermentation probably took off well before that point, generating even more heat.



Or fermentation temperature control.

Again I agree. Also wlp002 is rather aggressive so it probably raised the temperature itself by another 2 to 4 degrees Celsius, which would leave me above 25c for the first day... Pretty much not good.

Well, it is a dumper then. Pretty sh*tty, but the good thing is that I will be able to brew soon again. Next time I'll try Pacific ale from white labs. It will be more like a blonde ale this time. And I will definitely let it cool down further, I got a balcony which I will use for this purpose.

At one point in the future, I might start to use a chiller, but for now I like to keep it as easy as possible. Dumping the boiling wort into my fermenter also solves any sanitation issues that might happen otherwise.

 

[marc1]

Putting your fermenter in a larger pail of cold water could help.

 

[IslandLizard]

At one point in the future, I might start to use a chiller, but for now I like to keep it as easy as possible. Dumping the boiling wort into my fermenter also solves any sanitation issues that might happen otherwise.

If you're referring to a no-chill method, those containers are typically sealed. If your fermenter isn't sealed, bugs may get sucked in with the air as the wort shrinks while it cools.

I'd also look into controlling ferm temps better.

 

[Miraculix]

If you're referring to a no-chill method, those containers are typically sealed. If your fermenter isn't sealed, bugs may get sucked in with the air as the wort shrinks while it cools.

I'd also look into controlling ferm temps better.

They also might get into the wot while the wort is being exposed to the air while being chilled with the wort chiller... that is not a real issue. And on the other hand, the container is sealed with an air lock. I have seen a lot of positive pressure (bubbling air lock) during the chilling process, never negative.

 

[VikeMan]

I have seen a lot of positive pressure (bubbling air lock) during the chilling process, never negative.

You might see bubbling during chilling, but air has to be moving (net) in, not out.

 

[couchsending]

002/1968/Pub are supposedly the same strain but in my experience they’re rather different.

002 especially needs to be pitched at 62/64 and kept at 66 or below for the first two days. Those fusels are very typical for this yeast at elevated temps. Pub seems to be more forgiving.

I’d suggest 1318 or Imperial Juice if you’re fermenting that warm and want to use and English yeast. 001/1056/05 is also much more forgiving at temps above 70.

 

[Miraculix]

002/1968/Pub are supposedly the same strain but in my experience they’re rather different.

002 especially needs to be pitched at 62/64 and kept at 66 or below for the first two days. Those fusels are very typical for this yeast at elevated temps. Pub seems to be more forgiving.

I’d suggest 1318 or Imperial Juice if you’re fermenting that warm and want to use and English yeast. 001/1056/05 is also much more forgiving at temps above 70.

Thank you. Yes, from my experience now I can also say that pub and 002 seem to be rather different.

 

[VikeMan]

002/1968/Pub are supposedly the same strain but in my experience they’re rather different.

I don't know about the Pub strain, but WLP002 and Wyeast 1968 are different strains, per genetic testing.