Extract DIPA, suggestions welcome

[boydster]

Long time reader, first time poster. I just had a great DIPA yesterday and it has inspired me to brew up one of my own. I am a fairly new brewer with an extract brewing setup. Before my next brew day is here, I'm looking for some feedback on the following recipe that I put together:

DIPA - Imperial IPA – 5.5 gallons
================================================================================
Batch Size: 6.255 gal
Boil Time: 60.000 min
Efficiency: 70%
OG: 1.081
FG: 1.016
ABV: 8.4%
Bitterness: 88.2 IBUs (Tinseth)
Color: 5 SRM (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Muntons DME - Extra Light Dry Extract 8.000 lb No No 95% 3 L
Muntons DME - Extra Light Dry Extract 2.000 lb No Yes 95% 3 L
Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L Grain 8.000 oz No No 5% 80 L
Total grain: 10.500 lb

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus 15.5% 1.200 oz Boil 60.000 min Pellet 51.9
Centennial 10.5% 2.000 oz Aroma 0.000 s Pellet 0.0
Amarillo 9.5% 2.000 oz Aroma 0.000 s Pellet 0.0
Simcoe 13.0% 1.000 oz Boil 60.000 min Pellet 36.3
Amarillo 9.5% 2.500 oz Dry Hop 0.000 s Pellet 0.0
Simcoe 13.0% 2.500 oz Dry Hop 0.000 s Pellet 0.0

Yeast
================================================================================
Name Type Form Amount Stage
WLP090 San Diego Sup Ale Liq 2.232 tsp Primary
*Make starter – MrMalty says 4.67 liters

Instructions
================================================================================
0) Add 6 gal water to the kettle and heat to 150F

1) Steep 8.000 oz Crystal 80L for 30 mins @ 150F

2) Bring the wort to a boil and hold for 60.000 min.

3) Raise water to boil and then remove from heat. Stir in 8.000 lb Muntons DME - Extra Light.

4) Put 1.000 oz Simcoe & 1.000 oz Columbus/Tomahawk/Zeus into boil for 60.000 min.

5) Stop boiling the wort.

6) Stir in 2.000 lb Muntons DME - Extra Light.

7) Steep 2.000 oz Centennial & 2.000 oz Amarillo in wort for 0.000 s.

8) You should have 5.500 gal wort post-boil.

9) Cool wort and pitch WLP090 to the primary.

10) Let ferment until FG is 1.016.

11) After initial fermentation is complete, dry hop with 2.500 oz Amarillo & 2.500 oz Simcoe in fermenter for 7 days.



One specific question I have is about the dry hops. Does it make sense to remove the first addition of dry hops after 14 days? I've found conflicting information. If possible I want to make sure I avoid any grassy flavors from the hops, and that was my best guess at a solution. I'd also appreciate any feedback from others regarding choice of ingredients. For the yeast, would it be better to make a starter, pitch 2 packets, or both? The OG seems pretty high to just re-hydrate a single packet and toss it in all by its lonesome.

 

[bobbrews]

I would suggest steering clear of Amber extract in hoppy beers, which has a predetermined percentage of 2-3 different malts which you may not want in a pale hoppy beer. You're better off sticking with Extra Light or Light Extract, and then adding steeping grains for added color or character, if desired... A specific type of character grain extract could also work. The lighter extracts are more pure with little to no fillers, aside from carapils. Therefore, it would be redundant to use more carapils in an Extract beer. You also have no control over the mash temp. Extract beers do not have the same issues with body and head retention as All Grain beers do.

74% Muntons Extra Light Extract (20% added at flameout)
13% some type of character extract like Maris Otter, Rye, Vienna (all added at flameout)
9% Sugar (all added at flameout)
4% Thomas Fawcett Caramalt

48 IBUs Columbus pellet @ 60 min full rolling boil
34 IBUs Simcoe pellet @ 60 min full rolling boil
4 oz. mixed hops @ 0 min aroma steep
5 oz. mixed hops @ dryhop for 7 days (not 14)

With Nottingham, you'll finish above 1.016 with your current OG. I'd consider making a starter of WLP090, WLP001, or WLP007 for better attenuation.

 

[boydster]

Thanks bobbrews. I read that Munton's doesn't use Cara-Pils in their extract. If that's the case, will the Caramalt provide some body & head retention? I haven't used it before, I've been using mostly different Crystals for steeping grains. I'm bailing on the Amber extract. I'll use Munton's Extra Light as I know my LHBS has that in stock right now.

I haven't used Nottingham before. Typically I use either 1056 or US-05 for regular ales. When I was putting this into Brewtarget, I noticed it showed a lower FG with Nottingham, so that is why it stuck. Also, the Google machine pointed me towards other folks saying they were getting 85-90% attenuation, which seemed pretty darn good. That said, do you think 1056 could get me in the 1.016 ballpark for this recipe?

Thanks for the pointer on the dry hop timeframe, too

 

[EyePeeA]

I read that Munton's doesn't use Cara-Pils in their extract.

Where did you hear that? Most maltsters don't even supply the specific ingredients or the %'s of those ingredients in their extra light and light extracts.

 

[boydster]

It was actually on HBT, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/smash-extract-173223/index2.html#post2019684
Reading closer, it actually specifies "Pale Malt." Is that different than Extra Light? My LHBS has Extra Light, but I haven't noticed anything called Pale and a quick search for Munton's Pale Extract online seems to be pointing me towards Extra Light

 

[EyePeeA]

"Our Pale Malt will only ever have this one type of malt in. We don't blend with carapils."

That statement is kind of misleading. It does not claim they are speaking of Extract, but rather Pale Malt (the grain). Some maltsters blend their base malts with multiple grains. Muntons does this with their Pearl Malt Blend.

I would bet that Extra Light extract is mostly English 2-row and a bit of carapils. Their Light extract is probably the same thing with a little bit of crystal 10 added.

 

[boydster]

I just updated the recipe in the first post to reflect where I'm at right now. Thanks again to bobbrews for some direction on that. I really like what I saw about the WLP090, so I think I might try it out. I went on Mr. Malty for the pitching calc, and it says I should make a starter that is 4.67 liters - does that sound right? It seems like a lot, but I haven't done it before so I don't have much of a frame of reference. I've made beers with smaller OG's in the past and I usually just pitch a rehydrated packet or a smack pack without doing a starter.

What are some folks' thoughts about doing 2 dry hop additions? I am considering doing one addition, leaving them in for a week, and then doing a second addition for another week.

 

[boydster]

Ok, I'll take out the Cara-Pils then, no sense duplicating something that is probably already there.

bobbrews, just found this post you wrote a couple months ago...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/muntons-extra-light-dme-components-389188/#post4891153

Looks like you've been down this road before bro, thanks for the tip

 

[bobbrews]

Thanks bobbrews. I read that Munton's doesn't use Cara-Pils in their extract.?

As far as I know Muntons and Briess, two major suppliers of extract, both use carapils in their pale extracts. This is speculation, but I'm positive enough to make an educated guess about it. One thing to note is that Briess Pilsen DME is sometimes offered as Briess Extra Light DME, but don't be fooled. Pilsen DME has a different taste than DME based on 2-row pale, the latter of which I think offers a better taste for American IPAs. If I had to choose one DME for quality, it would be Muntons XL DME. The ppg/L ratios are somewhat in line with pure 2-row malt at 3/37. Briess' Golden Light DME is 5/43... darker and more sugary.

If that's the case, will the Caramalt provide some body & head retention?

It will. But for this purpose, the 4% is really for flavor. Caramalt is just Thomas Fawcett's name for Crystal 15... a crystal malt made from English 2-row.

Typically I use either 1056 or US-05 for regular ales. Do you think 1056 could get me in the 1.016 ballpark for this recipe?

WLP001 is White Labs equivalent... either one of these three choices is a fine choice for an IPA. But WLP090 attenuates and flocs better.

other folks saying they were getting 85-90% attenuation, which seemed pretty darn good.

That level of attenuation is possible with Notty if you're an all-grain or partial mash brewer who is mashing a lot of base malt (with little to no spec grains) at sub 151 F and also using a bit of sugar in their recipe. However, it's not likely for an extract brewer with no control over mash temp... even if he/she used sugar in their recipe (in appropriate amounts). You will most likely stall at 1.017+++

 

[mike_in_ak]

Emphasizing above post's point that extra light is pilsner equivalent, which would be for a pilsner or similar beer rather than ipa.

I think with DIPA, you're going to need more malt backbone to balance the hops. If you can't find light extract, I would definitely get some malt profile through steeping grains.

 

[bobbrews]

I'm confused with the previous posters' comments, because you can have plenty of malt profile and backbone with the majority of the grist being plain old 2-row (as we see with Pliny the Younger). Where people go wrong with American IPAs/IIPAs is when they start adding 15% Munich 20L, 10% Biscuit Malt, 7% Crystal 80, 5% Victory, 5% Melanoidin Malt, etc. The hops get muddled and you're left with a malty and/or sweet beer.

Extra Light DME is not a Pilsener DME equivalent. Extra Light DME is based on 2-row pale malt. Pilsen DME is based on pilsen malt... two very different malts, but similar in color.

 

[boydster]

So I will be looking preferably for 10 lbs Munton's XL-DME (8 added at initial boil, 2 as a late addition @ flameout). I am thinking about complementing it with 1 lb Crystal 40L for a little more body and deeper color.

I also really like the idea of doing 2 dry hop additions of 7 days each. Is there any downside to doing that?

 

[mike_in_ak]

I'm confused with the previous posters' comments, because you can have plenty of malt profile and backbone with the majority of the grist being plain old 2-row (as we see with Pliny the Younger). Where people go wrong with American IPAs/IIPAs is when they start adding 15% Munich 20L, 10% Biscuit Malt, 7% Crystal 80, 5% Victory, 5% Melanoidin Malt, etc. The hops get muddled and you're left with a malty and/or sweet beer.

Extra Light DME is not a Pilsener DME equivalent. Extra Light DME is based on 2-row pale malt. Pilsen DME is based on pilsen malt... two very different malts, but similar in color.

I thought the extra light was pilsner.

 

[mike_in_ak]

(Is the explanation for my post, not an argument, disregard the above, etc)

 

[boydster]

Updated with the (hopefully) final version of the recipe. Instead of Cara-Pils, I'm going with 8 oz of Crystal 80L to get the color ideally up close to 9 SRM. Looking to brew this either this weekend or the following one. Will post updates. Thanks for the help.

 

[Hawaiibboy]

Updated with the (hopefully) final version of the recipe. Instead of Cara-Pils, I'm going with 8 oz of Crystal 80L to get the color ideally up close to 9 SRM. Looking to brew this either this weekend or the following one. Will post updates. Thanks for the help.

Just from having completed an AG DIPA/IIPA, and having a few talks with some people, I'd really suggest only one thing: spread your hop usage around in the boil if you are going for an American style super hop beer. Your recipe above has only two additions of hops at 60minutes and at flameout. I'd suggest a hop addition at least at 30min, 15 and still use the 60min and flameout additions. This will not only provide bitterness but also flavor and aroma from the hops. Here is the hop schedule I used for my 3gal IIPA/DIPA:

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
0.25 ozs 15.29 Chinook 60 mins 14.00
0.25 ozs 13.42 Chinook 40 mins 14.00
0.50 ozs 16.96 Amarillo Gold 30 mins 10.10
0.50 ozs 23.51 Chinook 30 mins 14.00
0.50 ozs 13.37 Amarillo Gold 20 mins 10.10
0.50 ozs 9.79 Cascade 20 mins 7.40
0.25 ozs 4.00 Amarillo Gold 10 mins 10.10
0.50 ozs 5.86 Cascade 10 mins 7.40
0.50 ozs 11.09 Chinook 10 mins 14.00
0.25 ozs 3.05 Chinook 5 mins 14.00
0.25 ozs 2.20 Amarillo Gold 5 mins 10.10
0.50 ozs Cascade 7 days 7.40
0.50 ozs Amarillo Gold 7 days 10.10
0.25 ozs Chinook 7 days 14.00

My OG was 1.097 after 6days it dropped to 1.017 with two vials of San Diego Super WLP 090. Total IBUs: 119

EDIT: you may also want to add some yeast nutrient to your boil so those yeast really get some help in getting down and funky in your fermenter.

 

[bobbrews]

Just from having completed an AG DIPA/IIPA, and having a few talks with some people, I'd really suggest only one thing: spread your hop usage around in the boil if you are going for an American style super hop beer. Your recipe above has only two additions of hops at 60minutes and at flameout. I'd suggest a hop addition at least at 30min, 15 and still use the 60min and flameout additions. This will not only provide bitterness but also flavor and aroma from the hops.

Disagreed. Pliny the Elder & Heady Topper both have very minimalistic hop addition times during the boil... 90/45/30/0 and 90/5/0. There are many other top rated American IIPAs with similar, or even more simplistic hop schedules. Odell IPA is close to IIPA range and only has 90/1/0 kettle hop additions. FW Union Jack has additions of 90/30/0. What you're doing when you start adding hops every 5 or 10 minutes is 1) wasting hops aromatic potential, 2) blowing money on expensive IBUs that you could've gained earlier & cheaper, and 3) muddling hop flavors. The scattered additions are not really building you a better, more complex IIPA with more hop focus or flavor. When it comes down to it, you're really focusing on Bittering Power & Hop Character (Flavor & Aroma). Think about how each of these goals are maximized.

The idealogy that makes the most sense to me is to blast an IIPA with a lot of early hops to attain the majority of your IBUs... a middle charge at 30 minutes could smooth/round things out but it is optional... and then blast it again at whirlpool/hopstand and dryhop to preserve the myrcene and other favorable, delicate hop compounds that offer maximum aroma potential. For me, addition times between 20-5 minutes are not useless per se, but they are more of a sacrificial addition. You are sacrificing a bit of aromatic potential and a bit of bittering potential for the sake of having lesser of each than you would if you used the hops extremely early or extremely late. You will technically not have more flavor by adding hops during 20-5 minutes. It really depends on how much hops your using and the recipe as a whole.

boyd, the one recommendation I would still make is to use C40 or lighter. C80 is a raisiny crystal malt and not particularly great in IPAs in excess of 2%. If you want color, use some amber malt or chocolate malt. A little bit (2% or less) will go a long way and not get in the way of flavor like a greater amount of darker crystal malt will. Some simple sugars in the grist will also help this to attenuate better and make the hops pop due to more dryness.

 

[Hawaiibboy]

Disagreed. Pliny the Elder & Heady Topper both have very minimalistic hop addition times during the boil... 90/45/30/0 and 90/5/0. There are many other top rated American IIPAs with similar, or even more simplistic hop schedules. Odell IPA is close to IIPA range and only has 90/1/0 kettle hop additions. FW Union Jack has additions of 90/30/0. What you're doing when you start adding hops every 5 or 10 minutes is 1) wasting hops aromatic potential, 2) blowing money on expensive IBUs that you could've gained earlier & cheaper, and 3) muddling hop flavors. The scattered additions are not really building you a better, more complex IIPA with more hop focus or flavor. When it comes down to it, you're really focusing on Bittering Power & Hop Character (Flavor & Aroma). Think about how each of these goals are maximized.

The idealogy that makes the most sense to me is to blast an IIPA with a lot of early hops to attain the majority of your IBUs... a middle charge at 30 minutes could smooth/round things out but it is optional... and then blast it again at whirlpool/hopstand and dryhop to preserve the myrcene and other favorable, delicate hop compounds that offer maximum aroma potential. For me, addition times between 20-5 minutes are not useless per se, but they are more of a sacrificial addition. You are sacrificing a bit of aromatic potential and a bit of bittering potential for the sake of having lesser of each than you would if you used the hops extremely early or extremely late. You will technically not have more flavor by adding hops during 20-5 minutes. It really depends on how much hops your using and the recipe as a whole.

boyd, the one recommendation I would still make is to use C40 or lighter. C80 is a raisiny crystal malt and not particularly great in IPAs in excess of 2%. If you want color, use some amber malt or chocolate malt. A little bit (2% or less) will go a long way and not get in the way of flavor like a greater amount of darker crystal malt will. Some simple sugars in the grist will also help this to attenuate better and make the hops pop due to more dryness.

You make a good point. The addition of large IBUs up front at 90/60 minutes makes sense. I also see your point about muddled hop flavors/aromas. In my case the whole point was to muddle the flavors to create something you wouldn't be able to get easily.

I will be trying your method on my IPA in the next week or two though.

Perhaps I could get some pointers/feedback from you once I finish my recipe a little more? You seem to have a much firmer grasp on this than I do!

 

[bobbrews]

Sure, just PM me. I want to clarify that everyone has their own way of brewing IIPAs. This is just the current hopping idealogy that I personally believe in and I laid out my reasoning for it. But no one is wrong or right here, and there are also great commercial IIPAs with more complex hop schedules. Use your head and find out what works for your palate.

 

[Hawaiibboy]

Sure, just PM me. I want to clarify that everyone has their own way of brewing IIPAs. This is just the current hopping idealogy that I personally believe in and I laid out my reasoning for it. But no one is wrong or right here, and there are also great commercial IIPAs with more complex hop schedules. Use your head and find out what works for your palate.

I was going to say the same thing. There really is more than one way to skin the cat.

 

[Hawaiibboy]

Sure, just PM me. I want to clarify that everyone has their own way of brewing IIPAs. This is just the current hopping idealogy that I personally believe in and I laid out my reasoning for it. But no one is wrong or right here, and there are also great commercial IIPAs with more complex hop schedules. Use your head and find out what works for your palate.

Since I'm still fresh to making my own recipes I want to try all the methods out.

 

[boydster]

I was worried that something like chocolate might be too much for this, but I guess at such a small amount it makes sense. I haven't used amber malt before. At < 2%, do you think either will impart much flavor? I know the chocolate has a much higher L value, and I've used it before a couple times so my initial inclination would be towards using that.