wine barrel flavor without wine barrel

[SanPancho]

hoping to get some advice on how to impart the red wine barrel flavor to beer when lacking (practical) access to used wine barrels. looking for the red wine flavor pickup, not oak or anything else like that. the only thing i could think of is getting a fresh used barrel and cutting the staves, but not sure that's a great idea given that you'd be putting the whole thing into the beer, both the interior and exterior faces of the stave. not sure thats a great idea.

would putting in a little grape concentrate do the same thing? or is that gonna be grape-y flavor instead of wine-y flavor?

this is for a light farmhouse ale, non-phenol saison, etc. if it matters.

 

[RufusBrewer]

If you can live with the expense, breaking down a barrel and using a stave(s) sounds like an excellent Idea.

I have been told that the advantage of staves is in using a higher side grain to end brain ratio. That is one of the drawbacks of oak cubes, 1/3 of the surface area is end grain. And end grain is less than optimum.

The question becomes how many staves to use. If it were my beer, I would research how many oak cubes are recommended, calculate the surface area and match the square inch value in staves surface area.

 

[Sam_92]

If it were me personally I would soak oak cubes in a red wine for a couple weeks then decant the wine and add the oak chips to the beer.

 

[SanPancho]

Sure, but the issue is how to make sure I’m not introducing nasties from the exterior of the barrel into the beer. there’s a process to clean/sanitize the insides, but not aware of any for exterior.

and cost. Even a half barrel fresh cut is still like 40 bucks. Seems excessive for 5gal batch….

 

[SanPancho]

If it were me personally I would soak oak cubes in a red wine for a couple weeks then decant the wine and add the oak chips to the beer.

of course. So obvious now in retrospect. Hell even a two buck chuck and a bag of cubes probably aren’t more than 10 bucks.

 

[Hans O. Lowe]

Sure, but the issue is how to make sure I’m not introducing nasties from the exterior of the barrel into the beer. there’s a process to clean/sanitize the insides, but not aware of any for exterior.

Don't people bake the wood in the oven to sanitize? Seems like I saw that somewhere, but it's been long ago.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Are you familiar with Hallertau Blanc? I've brewed with them a few times and definitely got wine notes in the finished beer.

 

[Golddiggie]

If you want faster extraction, get oak spirals instead of cubes. Spirals have max extraction in 6 weeks, where cubes are 6 months. I've been using spirals more lately in beers. Cubes are still used for mead batches where they can sit for longer than six months.

I'd still go with soaking the spiral in some of the wine you want the flavor added to the batch.

 

[SanPancho]

Don't people bake the wood in the oven to sanitize? Seems like I saw that somewhere, but it's been long ago.

seems like that could be a good option. although as i noted above, even a fresh half barrel is still like 40 bucks. alot easier to just pick up some cubes/spirals and go that route now that i think about it.

and now that we're on the discussion, im wondering if i really even need the oak at all? maybe snag one of the wife's bottles when its half done, let it sit out for a few days to start to go slightly sour, then toss it in. this idea is modeled after lagunitas' Sonomica, which is their "farmhouse ale" in red wine barrels. there's that sour smell to a red wine barrel when its fresh, and thats the note that goes so well in the beer. i dont think the base beer is sour, maybe a bit tart, but the wine definitely pushes it into more of the sour territory to my palate.

 

[SanPancho]

Are you familiar with Hallertau Blanc? I've brewed with them a few times and definitely got wine notes in the finished beer.

sure. we made a 100% blanc brett that was fantastic. but its a white wine flavor. the beer i'm emulating is put into red barrels.

 

[Sam_92]

I think you would want to add that slightly sour red wine on the hot side because that is probably acetobacter and could turn your lovely farmhouse ale into malt vinegar.

Maybe you could do a split batch and try both methods and see which you prefer?

 

[SanPancho]

I think you would want to add that slightly sour red wine on the hot side because that is probably acetobacter and could turn your lovely farmhouse ale into malt vinegar.

Maybe you could do a split batch and try both methods and see which you prefer?

good point. although maybe the wine isnt actually gone sour, its just the barrel that seems sour. i'd be wary of doing it hotside as it could boil off alot of the wine flavor? but i think the idea of splitting and see what's what is probably the key here.

so i'll brew up a batch, split into two. one with some red wine directly into the batch. the other with soaked spirals.

anybody have a recommendation for a farmhouse yeast, hopefully tart, but not phenolic?

 

[Sam_92]

I agree that you probably shouldn't boil the wine but maybe add it while the wort is above 160° F and let it stand there for a couple minutes. At 160° you should get complete pasteurization in fifteen seconds I believe. I would do similar with the oak cubes in the oven, around 165 shouldn't increase the toast level too much.

I don't have any experience with farmhouse yeast.

 

[Hans O. Lowe]

good point. although maybe the wine isnt actually gone sour, its just the barrel that seems sour. i'd be wary of doing it hotside as it could boil off alot of the wine flavor?

I'm planning to pasteurize some cider with a sous vide stick and a short bucket so I can back sweeten. Might be an option for wine as well if you happen to have the equipment already.

 

[SanPancho]

if it turns out that dumping straight wine into the beer is fine, then i guess id just do it as a rest on the knockout/chilling process. seems easier that way. less stuff to do, and clean.

trying to do some research on sonomica but not really finding anything. one result cites it as having brett, although i definitley didnt get any funk out of it. maybe i'll just email them and see if they respond with some guidelines on a homebrew recipe